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[Foolsfolly]

For all we know, it was Audacity's plan all along to get Marethari

All Audacity wanted was to get out of its prison. Merrill was the one it snared with its promises and plans but I know a Pride Demon would not balk at the idea of trading up for a respected Keeper's body.

The Dalish are dying out - its an acceptable risk to them to restore old Elven technology.

To paraphrase Varric "That's right all those other elves you see are figments of your imagination." The Dalish dying out is just one aspect of elven culture. An extremely self-centered aspect since they believe they're the true elves and all. But it's just a culture that's dying out. Not a race. The dwarves are a race that's dying out.

Once again where has she failed in restoration? She returned to the mountain after working on the mirror for about 8 years <allowing 2 years to clean the taint from the shard> to try to get more information from the demon. The keeper prevents this from ever happening. Does this mean Merrill has failed?

YES! Because the demon doesn't want to help Merrill. It wants to get out. And demons are notorious for their tricks. It is entirely possible, even likely, that the demon would trick Merrill. It's likely the demon doesn't even know how the mirrors work. Just stringing Merrill along until her desire to unlock it is so strong that she agrees to freeing the demon in order for any small bit of information.

There are plenty of sources where she can continue her research and in about 4 years the Dalish will be having their technology get together. Its an ongoing project.

Then her mistake is massive. If there are other sources for information and places to finish the mirror...then why deal with a demon?

The way the keeper said *she paid the price* she knew exactly what she was doing and until she was done telling Hawke/Merrill about it the keeper was still in control. Once all was said she gave up and let herself and the demon be killed.

Completely valid way to look at it.

Doubtful. Morrigan's had been active for some time when the Warden comes and nothing came through. Likewise, if there was something dangerous on the other side then Morrigan wouldn't have gone through with the Warden to raise their child.

Some time? It was just activated and it was closing after much effort. I just replayed it. And she warns the Warden that tries to go through with her. There's something through that mirror. Her child isn't some mewling it's an Old God and she's Flemeth's daughter. And again, Morrigan at first rejects the Warden's desire to go through the mirror because the Warden has no idea what's beyond it.

She only relents if you romanced her and say something along the lines of 'whatever it is at least I'd be with you' or some such thing.

Morrigan's walking into that realm with knowledge of what's beyond. Merrill has no idea there's anything beyond the mirror. Can you see the essential difference here?

She's gotten farther than anyone else has.

Other than the Tevinter Imperium and Morrigan you mean. And Morrigan's the only one since Arlathan to use it as a gateway. And as I've pointed out before the skill and knowledge Morrigan has and the skill and knowledge Merrill has is leagues apart.

[congealeddgtllvr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill knows full well that her plan could end up getting her killed, but the potential benefit to the People across Thedas could irrevocably and immeasurably change their lives for the better.

If you're comfortable helping Merrill potentially sacrifice herself that's cool bro.  I'm not.  

Hawke asks every companion to potentially sacrifice themselves every time he conscripts one of them for a dangerous mission.

Merrill has proven herself in combat.  She hasn't proven she's any different from any other mage when it comes to negotiating with demons.  Quite the opposite, in fact, if you take her into the Fade during Night Terrors.  

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just because a dev after the fact said, "Oh, yeah. She totally did...stuff we didn't allude to at the time..." is no defense. It's just a dev covering their tracks that there were things that they should have handled better.

I think Gaider said that before the game was released.

I is baffled.

Why oh why is it not in the game then?

[Foolsfolly]

sphinxess wrote...

Sorry, word of god is always counted in these threads - its like when word of god was used to say Meredith takes over the decision on calling the right of annulment from the chantry when the grand cleric is exploded. Not all of us like it - but we no longer argue it.

I just noticed this comment.

Word of God means nothing. Anyone can write a terrible story with a gaping plot hole and then say "Oh, well you see". That's fine and nice but it doesn't fix the story magically by having said that outside of the story.

I'm not saying anything about Merrill's storyline is a plot hole, just used plot hole as an example.

That's why Word of God doesn't matter. End of the day the story must stand on its own with the information within it and not with supplemental information from the creators outside of the story.

[LobselVith8]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Merrill has proven herself in combat.  She hasn't proven she's any different from any other mage when it comes to negotiating with demons.  Quite the opposite, in fact, if you take her into the Fade during Night Terrors.  

In other words, Hawke risks the life of every single companion who accompanies him, particularly on his personal quest to gain money in the Deep Roads.

And are you seriously referencing the quest that railroads every single one of Hawke's companions into attempted murder (except for Anders)?

[congealeddgtllvr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Merrill has proven herself in combat.  She hasn't proven she's any different from any other mage when it comes to negotiating with demons.  Quite the opposite, in fact, if you take her into the Fade during Night Terrors.  

In other words, Hawke risks the life of every single companion who accompanies him, particularly on his personal quest to gain money in the Deep Roads.

And are you seriously referencing the quest that railroads every single one of Hawke's companions into attempted murder (except for Anders)?

Ah yes ye olde railroad complaint.  

It's in the game.  It's part of Merrill's character.  

[bleetman]

LobselVith8 wrote...

And are you seriously referencing the quest that railroads every single one of Hawke's companions into attempted murder (except for Anders)?

Yes, on account of it actually happening. If the mechanics of the player opening a screen and selecting which companions they want in their party counts as a valid argument when discussing characterisation (because Hawke puts them at risk and they obey, or somesuch), I fail to see why this doesn't. The other companions don't loudly declare themselves capable of defending themselves against a demons influence at every turn, either.

Incidentally, she also specifically asks to go into the Fade during Night Terrors. Hawke doesn't drag her along.

Modifié par bleetman, 03 juillet 2011 - 02:03 .

[TEWR]

Some time? It was just activated and it was closing after much effort. I just replayed it. And she warns the Warden that tries to go through with her. There's something through that mirror. Her child isn't some mewling it's an Old God and she's Flemeth's daughter. And again, Morrigan at first rejects the Warden's desire to go through the mirror because the Warden has no idea what's beyond it.
She only relents if you romanced her and say something along the lines of 'whatever it is at least I'd be with you' or some such thing.
Morrigan's walking into that realm with knowledge of what's beyond. Merrill has no idea there's anything beyond the mirror. Can you see the essential difference here?

How do you know it was just activated? All she did was touch it and it seemed to already be active. We don't actually see her cast any sort of magic on it. As such, I'm led to believe it had been active for some time.


And the child has the soul of an Old God, but he hasn't come into his power yet. Morrigan hasn't trained him. And just because Morrigan is Flemeth's "daughter" (we have no clue if they're actually blood-related) doesn't mean she's an invincible force of badassery.


She knows what's on the other side. Her plan is to go there and raise her child. She wouldn't go somewhere where danger is rampant if it interfered with her primary objective. And that's raising the kid.

Other than the Tevinter Imperium and Morrigan you mean. And Morrigan's the only one since Arlathan to use it as a gateway. And as I've pointed out before the skill and knowledge Morrigan has and the skill and knowledge Merrill has is leagues apart.

The Imperium had unbroken, functioning Eluvians and cast blood magic on it, and they got a fancy telephone, along with whatever knowledge they didn't destroy from Arlathan. Morrigan had an entire book on the subject of the Eluvians.

Merrill got as far as she did using only a shard of the original and a few scraps of lore.

I is baffled.

Why oh why is it not in the game then?

I don't know, but I think it was in the game. Just not blatantly stated.


We know she took a shard of the Eluvian. She tells Hawke that. The fact that she knows they were used as communication devices should be proof enough that she has the lore. Lore from Tevinter perhaps. Kirkwall is a Tevinter city.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Foolsfolly wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The same could be said of The Warden heading to Haven during the Fifth Blight. How did he know completing the tests in the ruins would lead to the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and not some horror that could eclipse the Archdemon and the darkspawn horde?[/quote]

That is a huge stretch. But to put that down easily allow me to state that the ashes were in this realm. Opening a gate into an unknown is far more dangerous than finding soot that's always been in this realm. [/quote]

Except the phantom from The Warden's past says he could be an apparition because of many things, including the possibility that they are now in the Fade - which is another realm.

[quote]Foolsfolly wrote...

It's far better to say that letting Werewolves kill the Dalish is similar. Because, sure you get powerful allies to defeat the darkspawn. But it's an infectious disease that cannot be removed without the now dead Keeper. So even if one Werewolf only infects one other person in its whole life the chain reaction would cause a plague of flesh eating monsters. Think zombie apocalypse only they're faster, agile, and stronger than zombies.

And may I state for the record that any Warden who does that choice is an idiot for that reason. Even the epilogue for that choice is negative since the werewolves loose themselves into being feral beasts again. [/quote]

Wouldn't it be more similar to The Warden's choice with the Anvil of the Void, that presented the dwarves with a hundred years of peace and fought back the first Archdemon from the dwarven kingdoms?

[quote]Foolsfolly wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I took it to mean that Merrill should be careful, which she is, particularly since she asks Hawke to accompany her to Sundermount after seven years of working on the Eluvian. [/quote]

She asks Hawke to kill her if she turns into an Abomination. Yes, brownie points for knowing you're limits...but that's like saying "Hey, I don't think I can make this jump" and then jumping. Bringing Hawke along is not like attaching a bungie cord to her before jumping. It's like calling an ambulance ahead of time instead.

In other words, Hawke isn't there to prevent anything, only to clean up her mess when she falls. That isn't preparedness. And a clear sign that she's walking into that expecting to fail, which usually means you fail. Who wins a fight they go into thinking they're going to fail? [/quote]

Merrill is taking a risk that has the possibility of benefitting every elf on the continent. It's no different than Hawke heading into the Deep Roads, where he could face a horde of darkspawn and end up dying along with anyone who accompanied him, or he could be wealthy enough to regain his mother's childhood home and become a Human Noble. The Dragon Age universe is full of protagonists and characters who take risks.

[quote]Foolsfolly wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not sure why people act like a piece of technology that baffled the greatest minds of the Imperium shouldn't be some effort for a lone Dalish elf workng on, as Gaider had addressed, lore she gathered and information she extrapolated from the shard.[/quote]

Word of God means nothing. Nothing. The game has no evidence of such lore. Has no evidence of anything other than the fact that she built a mirror that doesn't reflect anything. I just invented a pencil that doesn't write! I'm a genius!

Just because a dev after the fact said, "Oh, yeah. She totally did...stuff we didn't allude to at the time..." is no defense. It's just a dev covering their tracks that there were things that they should have handled better.

See Gaider's comment that Ogres being present at the First Blight before the Qunari arrived is not a plot inconsistency by saying it's a story that hasn't been told yet. Well, sorry but we only know what's in the games and not what you're intending to fix in a later story (or far more likely a codex entry). [/quote]

Is it any different than saying the Magi boon was turned down in a messageboard instead of the actual game? It took years before this was addressed in the canon of a game, since the expansion and the DLC didn't address this fact.

[quote]Foolsfolly wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wrong. Gaider addressed that Merrill was building the Eluvian from lore she had gathered and information she had extrapolated from the shard.[/quote]

Information better stated in the game's story, don't you think? Again, Word of God is not a defense. We're all working with the same information provided by the game. If it's not in-game it doesn't matter.

Because Word of God is almost always a defense of the guys who made the story. It's them answering something they didn't answer in the book, film, video game, or show likely because they didn't notice it at the time.

It's almost never some small bit of information that wasn't important to the story, like saying Merrill had a sister who became a hunter of another tribe. Cool information but nothing to do with the story which is why it was left out of the story. If her using the shard to gleam answers was important (and it is) and that they knew of that before people asked about it then it should have been in the game. [/quote]

Since it explains how Merrill knew how to build the Eluvian, I don't see why it should be dismissed simply because the writers didn't explain it in the actual storyline. I can't dismiss facts simply because I dislike them - Gaider's "reveal" of the legality of Meredith's Right of Annulment makes no sense from a standpoint of checks and balances, but I can't argue the canon of his statement, no matter how ridiculous I found it to be.

[quote]Foolsfolly wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Morrigan is vague about the Eluvian because the writers don't want to explain what it is exactly. That's why Hawke can never get Merrill to give a detailed explanation - the writers want to keep the audience in suspense. [/quote]

I kind of agree. I think it's a mistake. When you're asking the player to make a choice on something you need to tell them what they're making a choice on. [/quote]

Don't get me wrong - I agree that this should have been explained in the storyline properly, rather than a messageboard. Too often this happens (like the Magi boon being turned down and no expanation being given in Awakening or Witch Hunt why there are still templars watching over mages in a post-Magi boon import).

[sphinxess]

bleetman wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And are you seriously referencing the quest that railroads every single one of Hawke's companions into attempted murder (except for Anders)?

Yes, on account of it actually happening. If the mechanics of the player opening a screen and selecting which companions they want in their party counts as a valid argument when discussing characterisation (because Hawke puts them at risk and they obey, or somesuch), I fail to see why this doesn't. The other companions don't loudly declare themselves capable of defending themselves against a demons influence at every turn, either.

Incidentally, she also specifically asks to go into the Fade during Night Terrors. Hawke doesn't drag her along.

Hawke took an insane risk by even going into the fade - the same argument could be made for not ever completing this quest as you make for Merrills actions- oh wait Hawke has game armor so its fine...

[LobselVith8]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Merrill has proven herself in combat.  She hasn't proven she's any different from any other mage when it comes to negotiating with demons.  Quite the opposite, in fact, if you take her into the Fade during Night Terrors.  

In other words, Hawke risks the life of every single companion who accompanies him, particularly on his personal quest to gain money in the Deep Roads.

And are you seriously referencing the quest that railroads every single one of Hawke's companions into attempted murder (except for Anders)?

Ah yes ye olde railroad complaint.  

It's in the game.  It's part of Merrill's character.  

It's probably the "railroad complaint" because it railroads every single one of Hawke's companions to try to murder him for a little over thirty seconds of dialogue. It's part of everyone's character that they automatically fail a brief conversation with a demon, while Hawke is never forced to surrender his free will, and the only exception is Anders. Even if Hawke is not a mage, he is never forced to succumb like the other characters are. It makes no logical sense why Hawke is immune while everyone else succumbs to a brief exchange of dialogue.

[congealeddgtllvr]

sphinxess wrote...

Hawke took an insane risk by even going into the fade - the same argument could be made for not ever completing this quest as you make for Merrills actions- oh wait Hawke has game armor so its fine...

This is besides the point, which is that Merrill is in a different kind of danger by attempting to deal with demons than she is when she is shooting lightning at slavers.  She proves she can kill baddies with magic but not that she can outwit Pride Demons.  In fact, she is 0 for 1 on that count.  

[sphinxess]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Hawke took an insane risk by even going into the fade - the same argument could be made for not ever completing this quest as you make for Merrills actions- oh wait Hawke has game armor so its fine...

This is besides the point, which is that Merrill is in a different kind of danger by attempting to deal with demons than she is when she is shooting lightning at slavers.  She proves she can kill baddies with magic but not that she can outwit Pride Demons.  In fact, she is 0 for 1 on that count.  

Actually she is 1 for 0 she learned blood magic the first time they talked

She never got a second chance thanks to the keepers actions

Edit: Oh ok including the Night Terror quest she is 1 for 1 which like I have said is entirely a poor quest - if you blame all the companions for giving into the demons you need to blame Hawke for even trying it <game armor or not>

Modifié par sphinxess, 03 juillet 2011 - 02:18 .

[bleetman]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It makes no logical sense why Hawke is immune while everyone else succumbs to a brief exchange of dialogue.

No, it doesn't. Protaganist plot armour when dealing with the Fade annoys me no end, too.

But still, it happens. She fails to resist, despite previously repeating that she knows how to.

[LobselVith8]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Hawke took an insane risk by even going into the fade - the same argument could be made for not ever completing this quest as you make for Merrills actions- oh wait Hawke has game armor so its fine...

This is besides the point, which is that Merrill is in a different kind of danger by attempting to deal with demons than she is when she is shooting lightning at slavers.  She proves she can kill baddies with magic but not that she can outwit Pride Demons.  In fact, she is 0 for 1 on that count.  

It's not besides the point, because in all those scenerios a risk is being taken. Every time Merrill is conscripted as a companion is another example of Hawke getting Merrill to risk her life for him.

[congealeddgtllvr]

sphinxess wrote...

Actually she is 1 for 0 she learned blood magic the first time they talked

She never got a second chance thanks to the keepers actions

Edit: Oh ok including the Night Terror quest she is 1 for 1 which like I have said is entirely a poor quest - if you blame all the companions for giving into the demons you need to blame Hawke for even trying it <game armor or not>

Can you point out where it's stated that she ever outwitted Audacity?  It seems like he gave it to her freely.  He's been in that statue a long time, he can afford to play the long game.  

[congealeddgtllvr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's probably the "railroad complaint" because it railroads every single one of Hawke's companions to try to murder him for a little over thirty seconds of dialogue. It's part of everyone's character that they automatically fail a brief conversation with a demon, while Hawke is never forced to surrender his free will, and the only exception is Anders. Even if Hawke is not a mage, he is never forced to succumb like the other characters are. It makes no logical sense why Hawke is immune while everyone else succumbs to a brief exchange of dialogue.

I can't argue with this.  The Sueness of Bioware protaganists gets to me too.  But I base my opinions on what happens in the game instead of metawhangsting about it.  And what happened was that Merrill was outwitted by a demon.  So I have a skeptical attitude about her ability to outwit Audacity.  

[LobselVith8]

bleetman wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It makes no logical sense why Hawke is immune while everyone else succumbs to a brief exchange of dialogue.

No, it doesn't. Protaganist plot armour when dealing with the Fade annoys me no end, too.

But still, it happens. She fails to resist, despite previously repeating that she knows how to.

Everyone fails. It has nothing to do with Merrill and everything to do with making Hawke seem awesome and infallible. It makes no sense for every companion (sans Anders) to betray Hawke simply because of a small exchange between Hawke's companion and the respective demon of the Fade. It's as asinine as guards and templars forgetting how the apostate Hawke used magic to save their lives.

[congealeddgtllvr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It has nothing to do with Merrill

I disagree.

[bleetman]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Everyone fails. It has nothing to do with Merrill and everything to do with making Hawke seem awesome and infallible.

That's certainly possible, but if you're actually trying to convince me that when a character who adamantely maintains that she can safely bargain with demons and resist them fails to do so, it suddenly becomes irrelevant, then I honestly don't know how to respond to that.

[LobselVith8]

bleetman wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Everyone fails. It has nothing to do with Merrill and everything to do with making Hawke seem awesome and infallible.

That's certainly possible, but if you're actually trying to convince me that when a character who adamantely maintains that she can safely bargain with demons and resist them fails to do so, it suddenly becomes irrelevant, then I honestly don't know how to respond to that.

Merrill acknowledges she might fail against Audacity, which is why she asks Hawke to accompany her to Sundermount. However, she is risking her life on an endeavour that could potentially benefit her entire race.

[Foolsfolly]

...this series needs at least one time where attempting to deal with a demon as the PC fails. So far there's too many "Well the Warden/Hawke can deal with a demon" instances. If demons are to remain a threat to mages than a mage PC should lose at least once to a demon's deal.

[bleetman]

How Merrill views her chances against Audacity changes phenomenally over the years. That she asks Hawke along in the event she needs to be euthanized is exactly what I'm talking about whenever I say that even she's not convinced of her ability to resist by that point. It's not as if that's a stance she's always adopting: she acknowledges the danger from the start, sure, but is adamant that she's able to defend herself. By the time act three rolls around, she's requesting an escort because she doesn't trust in her ability to resist anymore.

I can't speak to the potential benefit to the elven people. I'm not even fully convinced we know enough about what the Eluvian actually does.

Foolsfolly wrote...

...this series needs at least one time
where attempting to deal with a demon as the PC fails. So far there's
too many "Well the Warden/Hawke can deal with a demon" instances. If
demons are to remain a threat to mages than a mage PC should lose at
least once to a demon's deal.

Yes it does. What might have been nice would be for Hawke to one of the demons during Night Terrors, and another companion 'take over'. But I suppose that wouldn't be AWESOME!

Modifié par bleetman, 03 juillet 2011 - 03:01 .

[LobselVith8]

bleetman wrote...

How Merrill views her chances against Audacity changes phenomenally over the years. That she asks Hawke along in the event she needs to be euthanized is exactly what I'm talking about whenever I say that even she's not convinced of her ability to resist by that point. It's not as if that's a stance she's always adopting: she acknowledges the danger from the start, sure, but is adamant that she's able to defend herself. By the time act three rolls around, she's requesting an escort because she doesn't trust in her ability to resist anymore.

I can't speak to the potential benefit to the elven people. I'm not even fully convinced we know enough about what the Eluvian actually does.

Merrill is being cautious. If you want an example of a mage a reckless mage, look no further than Marethari, who allows a demon inside of her and discards the consequences of such an action. Following Marethari's action with Audacity, all the members of her clan can die if Hawke doesn't coddle the clan members.

Again, while Hawke is ignorant about the Eluvian, Merrill has studied lore and extrapolated information about it from the shard. Hawke doesn't have the knowledge to contest her claims about the Eluvian's possible potential to help her people, and the writers refuse to clarify information about the Eluvian because they want to keep everyone in the dark because the place "beyond this world and beyond the Veil" is where Morrigan (and possibly The Warden) went to.

[FieryDove]

LobselVith8 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It makes no logical sense why Hawke is immune while everyone else succumbs to a brief exchange of dialogue.

No, it doesn't. Protaganist plot armour when dealing with the Fade annoys me no end, too.

But still, it happens. She fails to resist, despite previously repeating that she knows how to.

Everyone fails. It has nothing to do with Merrill and everything to do with making Hawke seem awesome and infallible.

Not everyone. There were several times I took Anders, Fenris and Merrill. M betrayed me no matter what the meter was at. Fenris and Anders never did.