50 réponses à ce sujet

[CitizenThom]

Raven4030 wrote...

Well, if you want to get technical the Reaper could be classified as "brain dead" as the only two things active were the mass effect drive and the indoctrination field. You know, that does make me wonder if there is something about mass effect fields that makes organic minds more susceptible to suggestion.

Well it depends if there is telepathic suggestion in the ME universe that works in the same way the quasi-telekenesis does. Also, it has to be remembered that biotic amplifiers seem to act in one direction (from internal input). Otherwise, biotic barriers would be especially susceptible to Warp you would think. If biotic barriers require an amplifier to produce, and the amplifier worked in two directions (from external and internal input), then Warp used on a biotic barrier would in fact be amplified too.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:09 .

[Raven4030]

Uh... when I said "suggestion" I didn't mean "telepathy". What I mean is "suggestion" as in "you're more likely to agree with the things I said just because I said it". What this would mean in the ME universe is not only would spacers and other military personnel be more susceptible to indoctrination (Shephard being an obvious anomaly), but are also more apt to following the orders of whoever is identified as the "leader" (military commanders, civilian ship captains, etc.)

[KevShep]

Edit....Dean_the_Young........Leaving a reaper behind even in a half dead reaper is a threat to there plan. The reapers are not a fan of unnecessary risk, so even if another race found it it could cause unwanted attention. Imagine if Cerberus shared the find with the council or some other media grourp just so no one could deny it. Just think of what that could do....because the council is denying the reaper threat they can show it to the media(such as bring the media to the reaper itself) so the council can no longer deny it. If cerberus is really wanting to save the galaxy then they would not necessarily hand the reaper over to the council but they can tell them about it so they can try to stop the reapers altogether. The fact that they tell no one is another hint at there involvment with the reapers as ME3 states....do you really think that cerberus would not get allies in the fight against the reapers and just fight them on there own with only 13 cells???????????

With your logic it states that both cerberus and the reapers themselves are incompetent. I know that the reapers at least are not. speculating- There is a reason that they left the reaper there and I bet that it has somthing to do with cerberus as being part of that plan, which is why they tell no one about it. There is somthing going on between cerberus and the reapers.

Modifié par KevShep, 08 juillet 2011 - 08:32 .

[Raven4030]

KevShep wrote...

Raven4030........Leaving a reaper behind even in a half dead reaper is a threat to there plan. The reapers are not a fan of unnecessary risk, so even if another race found it it could cause unwanted attention. Imagine if Cerberus shared the find with the council or some other media grourp just so no one could deny it. Just think of what that could do....because the council is denying the reaper threat they can show it to the media(such as bring the media to the reaper itself) so the council can no longer deny it. If cerberus is really wanting to save the galaxy then they would not necessarily hand the reaper over to the council but they can tell them about it so they can try to stop the reapers altogether. The fact that they tell no one is another hint at there involvment with the reapers as ME3 states....do you really think that cerberus would not get allies in the fight against the reapers and just fight them on there own with only 13 cells???????????

With your logic it states that both cerberus and the reapers themselves are incompetent. I know that the reapers at least are not. speculating- There is a reason that they left the reaper there and I bet that it has somthing to do with cerberus as being part of that plan, which is why they tell no one about it.

I'd assume you're responding to somebody else, except you called me out by (screen)name, so I have to ask: are you sure you're posting in the right thread because I never stated anything related to anything you just typed here.

[KevShep]

Raven4030 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Raven4030........Leaving a reaper behind even in a half dead reaper is a threat to there plan. The reapers are not a fan of unnecessary risk, so even if another race found it it could cause unwanted attention. Imagine if Cerberus shared the find with the council or some other media grourp just so no one could deny it. Just think of what that could do....because the council is denying the reaper threat they can show it to the media(such as bring the media to the reaper itself) so the council can no longer deny it. If cerberus is really wanting to save the galaxy then they would not necessarily hand the reaper over to the council but they can tell them about it so they can try to stop the reapers altogether. The fact that they tell no one is another hint at there involvment with the reapers as ME3 states....do you really think that cerberus would not get allies in the fight against the reapers and just fight them on there own with only 13 cells???????????

With your logic it states that both cerberus and the reapers themselves are incompetent. I know that the reapers at least are not. speculating- There is a reason that they left the reaper there and I bet that it has somthing to do with cerberus as being part of that plan, which is why they tell no one about it.

I'd assume you're responding to somebody else, except you called me out by (screen)name, so I have to ask: are you sure you're posting in the right thread because I never stated anything related to anything you just typed here.

sorry I meant dean_the_young.

Modifié par KevShep, 08 juillet 2011 - 06:29 .

[Lapis Lazuli]

If they don't care because 'they'll just be indoctrinated if they find it', why don't they expand that sort of fail-safe strategy? Wouldn't it be prudent to install indoctrination devices on all manor of sensitive objects?

I think they lost it or figured it would soon be destroyed else they would've gotten rid of it.

Modifié par Lapis Lazuli, 08 juillet 2011 - 08:02 .

[KevShep]

Lapis Lazuli wrote...

If they don't care because 'they'll just be indoctrinated if they find it', why don't they expand that sort of fail-safe strategy? Wouldn't it be prudent to install indoctrination devices on all manor of sensitive objects?

I think they lost it or figured it would soon be destroyed else they would've gotten rid of it.

If cerberus found it then I dont think that the reapers would have missed it. The reapers tech is far better then cerberus tech. If that systems relay was activated then the reapers would have no problem at all finding there lost buddy. In order for the reapers to be sucessfull they would have to not take any unecessary risks and assume that it wont be a problem if they leave it there. One bad move and the reapers work could be undone so they must take extreme caution when they lose a fellow reaper and make sure that its disposed of........unless there is a motive behind it, and it just so happends to be cerberus of all people to find it.

[Lapis Lazuli]

KevShep wrote...

Lapis Lazuli wrote...

If they don't care because 'they'll just be indoctrinated if they find it', why don't they expand that sort of fail-safe strategy? Wouldn't it be prudent to install indoctrination devices on all manor of sensitive objects?

I think they lost it or figured it would soon be destroyed else they would've gotten rid of it.

If cerberus found it then I dont think that the reapers would have missed it. The reapers tech is far better then cerberus tech. If that systems relay was activated then the reapers would have no problem at all finding there lost buddy. In order for the reapers to be sucessfull they would have to not take any unecessary risks and assume that it wont be a problem if they leave it there. One bad move and the reapers work could be undone so they must take extreme caution when they lose a fellow reaper and make sure that its disposed of........unless there is a motive behind it, and it just so happends to be cerberus of all people to find it.

A motive that lasts for 37,000,000 years? It was there for 740 reaper cycles. If they knew it was there for 740 reaper invasions it was an unnecessary risk no matter how you slice it. The odds of something going wrong increases with the number of cycles. I think the authors, in order to create a plausible situation for there being a lost and forgotten reaper, picked tens of millions of years ago because it wouldn't seem plausible that they lost it recently.

Modifié par Lapis Lazuli, 08 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[KevShep]

Lapis Lazuli wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Lapis Lazuli wrote...

If they don't care because 'they'll just be indoctrinated if they find it', why don't they expand that sort of fail-safe strategy? Wouldn't it be prudent to install indoctrination devices on all manor of sensitive objects?

I think they lost it or figured it would soon be destroyed else they would've gotten rid of it.

If cerberus found it then I dont think that the reapers would have missed it. The reapers tech is far better then cerberus tech. If that systems relay was activated then the reapers would have no problem at all finding there lost buddy. In order for the reapers to be sucessfull they would have to not take any unecessary risks and assume that it wont be a problem if they leave it there. One bad move and the reapers work could be undone so they must take extreme caution when they lose a fellow reaper and make sure that its disposed of........unless there is a motive behind it, and it just so happends to be cerberus of all people to find it.

A motive that lasts for 37,000,000 years? It was there for 740 reaper cycles. If they knew it was there for 740 reaper invasions it was an unnecessary risk no matter how you slice it. The odds of something going wrong increases with the number of cycles. I think the authors, in order to create a plausible situation for there being a lost and forgotten reaper, picked tens of millions of years ago because it wouldn't seem plausible that they lost it recently.

true...the authors I think need to do a better job so there does not end up being plot holes that even explained dont make sense. Like....[authors]"Hey we need to find an excuse for shepard to get an IFF to satisfy our story plot....why dont we throw a derelict reaper in there that the reapers forgot all about and use that to get a IFF that cerberus will just happen to  end up finding". 

[E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox]

Who says that is the only derelict reaper out there? For all we know, it is a Reaper from the first cycles where they had yet to perfect their ability to be meticulous and precise. This also brings up the question of why leave behind the Object of Rho from Arrival? Why? Reapers think of themselves as omnipotent.

[Chuvvy]

Rip504 wrote...

LordNige wrote...

 Don't know if this has been tread upon or not but there is a log on the derelict reaper that states that the nano technology in some Reaper parts would have degraded after the 37 million years its been there.

Put in perspective, if the Reapers harvest every 50 thousand years that leaves room for 740 harvests since the Reaper was destroyed.(37,000,000 divided by 50,000=740)

740 Harvest. Damn. That is an absurd amount, is it not?

So that's at least 740 reapers, well, 739.

Modifié par Slidell505, 09 juillet 2011 - 05:50 .

[E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox]

Slidell505 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

LordNige wrote...

 Don't know if this has been tread upon or not but there is a log on the derelict reaper that states that the nano technology in some Reaper parts would have degraded after the 37 million years its been there.

Put in perspective, if the Reapers harvest every 50 thousand years that leaves room for 740 harvests since the Reaper was destroyed.(37,000,000 divided by 50,000=740)

740 Harvest. Damn. That is an absurd amount, is it not?

So that's at least 740 reapers, well, 739.

you mean 738?

[Lapis Lazuli]

...and it's not just the IFF. It's also a billboard on the side of the highway (if you can find it) that says "Did you know you can fight back and kill reapers even though they purport to be invulnerable? Research mass accelerator weaponry today! Visit www.UsReapersWantToStopOurselvesByLeavingBehindStuffLikeThis.org"

Modifié par Lapis Lazuli, 09 juillet 2011 - 06:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KevShep wrote...

Edit....Dean_the_Young........Leaving a reaper behind even in a half dead reaper is a threat to there plan.

How does the half-dead Reaper threaten the Citadel Relay strategy? How does it prevent the Reapers from flying in to the Alpha relay?

The reapers are not a fan of unnecessary risk, so even if another race found it it could cause unwanted attention.

Unwanted attention to what? If you don't already know about the Reapers, what link is there between the Derilect Reaper and the extinction cycle?

Imagine if Cerberus shared the find with the council or some other media grourp just so no one could deny it. Just think of what that could do....because the council is denying the reaper threat they can show it to the media(such as bring the media to the reaper itself) so the council can no longer deny it.

You realize that the media got plenty of pictures of Sovereign, right? Given the Council's various stories, ranging from 'ancient warship' to 'geth', as well as the always-possible explanation that Cerberus is using its influence and forgery capabilities to pretend somethingis  there...

Besides the rather blatant possibility for a Council coverup and
press blackout (like they did with a certain other ghost ship packed
with AIs in CDN), other cover stories are just about leaping: a
secret battle with Geth in the Terminus, never revealed because, well,
Terminus. The Geth capitalship was heavily damaged and blah blah blah.


You're also forgetting that Cerberus only found it because 'the Plan' was already ruined... by the Protheans, who never, ever knew about the Derilect Reaper. And with the Reapers possibly already in transit going by Arrival, the Collectors weren't even the dominant backup-backup-backup plan for the cycle.

If cerberus is really wanting to save the galaxy then they would not necessarily hand the reaper over to the council but they can tell them about it so they can try to stop the reapers altogether.

The Council didn't believe in the Reapers when they had parts and pieces to spare to study. Why would they believe in the Reapers if Cerberus went 'hey, we found a Reaper, but we totally won't tell you, why don't we work together and you stop hating us?"

The fact that they tell no one is another hint at there involvment with the reapers as ME3 states....

No, it doesn't. It means they wanted to study it first for themselves. It implies nothing else.

Nor do the ME3 trailers state Cerberus was working with the Reapers in ME2... you know, when every single advance against the Reapers and their pawns was made with the involvement and pushing by Cerberus. Nor does anything in Retribution, a year after the suicide mission, support any of the same when Cerberus is directly responsible for hunting down a Reaper Avatar.

do you really think that cerberus would not get allies in the fight against the reapers and just fight them on there own with only 13 cells???????????

This was already addressed in the first scene of ME2: Cerberus believes that the Council wouldn't accept their help no matter the basis. Given what we see of the Council (and the Virmire Survivor), this is pretty much reasonable and correct.

Also, this is a bit late but the extra ????? or !!!!! don't do anything positive for you.

With your logic it states that both cerberus and the reapers themselves are incompetent.

Whoa, girl. Let's not get too ambitious: when you got your own logic under control, then maybe we can move on to the point where you can understand my logic. Because it's rather apparent at this point that you don't.

I know that the reapers at least are not. speculating- There is a reason that they left the reaper there and I bet that it has somthing to do with cerberus as being part of that plan, which is why they tell no one about it.

...yes, the Reapers left the Derilect Reaper behind so that tens of millions of years later a covert organization from a species that had not even finished evolving yet could use salvage from the vessel to directly strike against the directly-controlled pawns of the Reapers, proving that they were indeed... somehow in the Reaper's pockets even then.

There is somthing going on between cerberus and the reapers.

Oh, there always was. That something happened to be a Cerberus-instigated and maintained covert war until some point after Retribution.

Sort of like Commander Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

Slidell505 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

LordNige wrote...

 Don't know if this has been tread upon or not but there is a log on the derelict reaper that states that the nano technology in some Reaper parts would have degraded after the 37 million years its been there.

Put in perspective, if the Reapers harvest every 50 thousand years that leaves room for 740 harvests since the Reaper was destroyed.(37,000,000 divided by 50,000=740)

740 Harvest. Damn. That is an absurd amount, is it not?

So that's at least 740 reapers, well, 739.

There's no reason to assume a Reaper is made every cycle (except the Protheans)... nor is there any reason to assume that only one Reaper is made per 'productive' harvest.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How does the half-dead Reaper threaten the Citadel Relay strategy? How does it prevent the Reapers from flying in to the Alpha relay?

If the Reaper is still even partially active after 37 million years despite being heavily damaged it sort of provides proof that the Reapers could indeed be that old a race. Also any race approaching it sanely would learn about indoctrination and have a chance to develop countermeasures. And if any race figured out how to salvage it, they would have access to Reaper technology.

And that is in addition to what EDI pulled out of the database, and the fact it has an IFF, which allowed Shepard to stop the Reapers' Collector threat.

You figure none of that equates to threats to the Reapers' plans?

You realize that the media got plenty of pictures of Sovereign, right? Given the Council's various stories, ranging from 'ancient warship' to 'geth', as well as the always-possible explanation that Cerberus is using its influence and forgery capabilities to pretend somethingis  there...

Besides the rather blatant possibility for a Council coverup and
press blackout (like they did with a certain other ghost ship packed
with AIs in CDN), other cover stories are just about leaping: a
secret battle with Geth in the Terminus, never revealed because, well,
Terminus. The Geth capitalship was heavily damaged and blah blah blah.

You're also forgetting that Cerberus only found it because 'the Plan' was already ruined... by the Protheans, who never, ever knew about the Derilect Reaper. And with the Reapers possibly already in transit going by Arrival, the Collectors weren't even the dominant backup-backup-backup plan for the cycle.

The derelict was the same basic hull design as Sovereign and 37 million years old. That makes it rather unlikely they could have stuck with the 'Sovereign is a Geth ship' story, doesn't it? And Cerberus found it simply because they were looking. They were investigating the Klendagon weapon. If it had been found sooner by a major government and studied properly as dangerous xenotechnology with proper controls, the race doing so could have learned about Reapers from its database, indoctrination from its indoctrination systems (and potentially found a counter), and generally reverse engineered the whole ship. As a derelict it isn't as if the Reapers have any control over who finds it and how wisely it is investigated.

Even thought the collectors weren't in play yet before the Protheans, presumably it had an IFF for some reason. The implication is that it allows access to more than just the center of the galaxy.

Oh, there always was. That something happened to be a Cerberus-instigated and maintained covert war until some point after Retribution.

Sort of like Commander Shepard.

According to Ascension though, TIM didn't even know about the Reapers until after ME1.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

-snip-

Hey, Moiaussi ignores context and important qualifiers to make disagreements.

Big surprise.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:19 .

[mcsupersport]

I see the talk about using the Reaper to prove they exist to the council or in the Media, and I have to shake my head. If you broadcast it in the media and it is believed, what do you think the common person/alien will do when they learn a giant race of machines is coming to harvest them and that they have been doing it unstopped for MILLIONS of YEARS?? Mass panic would be the least of the events, greatly reducing the ability to even think of fighting them off. The second thing is do you really believe that the council doesn't know about the Reapers and that they currently aren't preparing as fast as they can?? Are you that naive, or do you just hate the Council that much?? CDN news gave updates of massive troop/ship buildups, STG knows about indoctrination(Mordin wrote paper on it) and iirc specifically Reaper indoctrination, as well as many other subtle clues. You don't announce the end of your civilization to the masses unless you want panic, it just isn't done, and they are doing what good rulers have done forever, and that is say one thing in public to reassure the public, and work like heck to prepare for the problem.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

-snip-

Hey, Moiaussi ignores context and important qualifiers to make disagreements.

Big surprise.

And as usual, you hide behind an unsubstantiated accusation and don't even address me directly. Point out the context being missed and which qualifiers you deem important and you might actually say something useful.

[Moiaussi]

mcsupersport wrote...

I see the talk about using the Reaper to prove they exist to the council or in the Media, and I have to shake my head.

Going via the media is indeed a bad idea for the reasons you list, however that doesn't mean it doesn't constitute evidence.

Also going to the Council does not equate to going to the media. The STG believe in the Reapers but keep in mind that the Council don't neccessarily back them any more than they back you. They chastise you for using the nuke on Vermire even though that was an STG plan, and it is still inexplicable why they would try to convince Shepard that the Reapers are a myth.

The case for keeping them out of public knowledge is independant of acknowleding them privately, and if they had said to Shepard 'we know and are making plans, but you will have to trust us and stay discrete,' Shepard would have had a lot less reason to shout OMG Reapers to anyone who would listen.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 10 juillet 2011 - 05:29 .

[Raven4030]

The council would ignore the Derelict Reaper and claim it was some sort of failed "beta-version" of the ship that attacked the Citadle or otherwise plug their fingers in their ears and scream "lalalalala".

I mean, consider what Shephard is saying: "You know that ship that decimated the Citadel fleet so thoroughly that it caused a massive shift in the balance of power? There are hundreds more out there, they don't negotiate, and they've been doing this every 50,000 years for millions of years and to them we're just another organic smudge to be wiped from the face of the galaxy."

If I heard that, no matter how much evidence you present to me it's true, I would not want to believe it.

[KevShep]

the council said that sovereign was a geth ship and that that geth ship was an isolated incident but if you show them that there is another one that is 37 million years old then that would...PROVE... that it is not a geth design and that it is in fact older then the protheans. This would then give weight to the theory of the protheans were killed off by the reapers! Even the council would take notice to that evidence because it straight up proves them wrong and there is nothing they can do to discredit it........Cerberus did not do this because they are helping the reapers, if they were not helping them then they would at least try to convince them or the media so the council could not hide it(to stop chaos from happening when the news confermed it).

mcsupersport .........You dont have to tell the media everything. Just tell them that there is a race like the geth that will start a war with every race in the galaxy and to prepare for war! They dont need to know about the harvest!!!!!!!!!!! The council does need to do more then what there doing. There is going to be some measure of panic. If you think panicing now is bad for the galaxy then if you dont tell them about it now then when the reapers get here it will be a lot worse then if you tell the media before hand......at least they can prepare.

KevShep wrote...

Edit....Dean_the_Young........Leaving a reaper behind even in a half dead reaper is a threat to there plan.

     Dean_the_Young .... How does the half-dead Reaper threaten the Citadel Relay strategy? How does it prevent the Reapers from flying in to the Alpha relay?

It does not threaten there plan for the alpha relay.....I never said that.....I said it threatens there over all plan of staying undiscovered so they can harvest with very little resistance. That half dead reaper...CAN...threaten there plan and in fact does as far as we know or at least someone else could have found it...like say the STG or anyone.

If cerberus is really wanting to save the galaxy then they would not necessarily hand the reaper over to the council but they can tell them about it so they can try to stop the reapers altogether.

Dean_the_Young The Council didn't believe in the Reapers when they had parts and pieces to spare to study. Why would they believe in the Reapers if Cerberus went 'hey, we found a Reaper, but we totally won't tell you, why don't we work together and you stop hating us?"

The fact that they tell no one is another hint at there involvment with the reapers as ME3 states....

 

Dean_the_Young  No, it doesn't. It means they wanted to study it first for themselves. It implies nothing else.
Nor do the ME3 trailers state Cerberus was working with the Reapers in ME2... you know, when every single advance against the Reapers and their pawns was made with the involvement and pushing by Cerberus. Nor does anything in Retribution, a year after the suicide mission, support any of the same when Cerberus is directly responsible for hunting down a Reaper Avatar.

They dont not believe in the reaper because they think its a geth but the derelic reaper is 37 million years old and with this info they can not say that it was a geth anymore! BTW it does in fact say in a trailer by spike TV when they intervewed Casey Hudson hes says that TIM ....IS....behind it all!!!!!!!!! look at 3:08-4:00!

Modifié par KevShep, 10 juillet 2011 - 09:35 .

[bagrar]

HEHE I just joined the confusion about this topic, but actually I think three's some sense in what Dean_the_young says here…

If the reapers wanted to be safe, and keep their plans airtight then they would kill everything all the time, and leave nothing,

BUT what the reapers do is like us having cattle, It poses no threat to us, they will not overtake our world, BUT it can kill us if we get sloppy or some random, uncalculated thing happens,

If I were a evil man/master and my partner died in the 100.000.000 mile big field we had and left him for dead, I would never believe that the cattle would learn anything form him, and if they did, it would be a technology/learning I just would 'steal' from the cattle when the harvest cycle came along…

The reapers 'are' omnipotent or at least they believe they are… which means that no matter how much the lesser races develop, the Reapers never believe that they will be overtaken, only an unforeseen event/technology could overtake them, and this can always happen, everything is relative as stated by Einstein (i think)

Anyways, the reapers left the derelict reaper for dead, maybe on purpurse so that races could learn something from it like from the mass relays, so the reapers would get even better research for their harvest…

(only thing 'wrong' is that if I was a reaper I would have made a new 'reaper IFF' so the derelict reaper would have an outdated IFF...)

7 days to ME3 for me… MAN i'm looking forward to it!!

[Jamin101]

Sarah_SR2 wrote...

I was disappointed with the level design for the IFF mission to be honest. Here we have the most powerful and evil race of cybernetic beings in the universe and the interior of their ship should have been made to look the same way. It should have been something that made you scared to walk through, scared to play on your own after dark and dripping with suspense. I recall how the first Aliens vs Predator game made me feel when I tried it way back but Instead we get a bland looking ship that looks exactly the same as any other level in the game.

Maybe its because I was so young but you nailed it with the original AVP. That game scared me so bad, maybe being so dark helped the effect. The first time a face hugger jumpedt me I had to change my underwear (jk). The part of the reaper design I liked was when you could see into the brown dwarf and that some of the walls were very angular so as to look imposing to a human sized person

[Jamin101]

Also people mention how meticulous the reapers are at cleaning up after an invasion but is that the case. Vigil mentions it takes centuries to finish an extinction cycle. During century's of fighting this Reaper was damaged and maybe they just forgot about it or didnt care because they believe they are gods.

If you explore every planet in both games which im sure most people have there are at least 6 to a dozen planets mentioned. All of them had space fairing races destroyed, craters were still present, some settlements present.

There is constant evidence of destroyed races older then the protheans and no one cares. The galaxy has stagnated, its why humans gain so much power. Its like the bartender in ME2 who said they should have been building their own relays before humans even had the industrial revolution.