163 réponses à ce sujet

[erynnar]

HowlHowl wrote...

erynnar wrote...

And your very point about people and their imaginations and their Wardens being boring, and not as engaing as well (not that the Warden wasn't voiced). It wasn't the dialogue choices and no voice, rather the player's lack of imaginations?

Um, I dislike Hawke because she was a flat paper doll who was BioWare's character so much so that I didn't have a lot of room to imagine her personality. She was a milksop who let everything happen around her or to her, but never really had the ability to make things happen. I dislike Hawke because she can only be Happy, Sneezy, Douchy, or have Personality Affect Disorder.

I dislike Hawke, because she is the railroad car on the tracks at the kiddy park. I dislike Hawke because she was a Fed Ex messenger and a shill for being used by her companions (they had no reason to stick with her, or respect her). She wasn't exceptional in the way that my characters were who became Grey Wardens.  I mean, I don't see Duncan recruiting Hawke to the Grey, she is just not that great. She's, lets face it a premade, railroaded, linear schmuck who goes into a coma for three years at different times whle the world falls apart (well except the city, it never changes).

And actually, dislike is too strong a word, I am ambivilant about her. I neither hate, nor like her. I can't decide if I would ****** on her to put her out if she was on fire. By the time I got through trying to overcome my apathy for her, she would be a pile of ashes. Such is the meh I feel for her. 

I feel more for the companions than I do Hawke, because she was never had enough perceived space given to me by BioWare to use my imagination for Hawke and flesh her out.  Why bother using my imagination for her? BioWare just wanted me to use her to get from one movie scene to another. She was a vehicle to get to the cut aways for the story BioWare wanted to tell (yes the Warden was too, but the Warden was a bumper car not a kiddy train).

I would say no, it wasn't the lack of dialogue choice. Hell, Wardens had significantly more choice than Hawke. What DA:O lacked in dialogue effect and the Warden's voice, it made up for with giving the player the choice of different actions for different reasons. Take the ending of DA:O, for example.

Would you feel the same way if you could choose to make Hawke a dwarf or an elf? Are you ambivalent toward Shepard of ME too, and the Warden? Based on what you say, the problem with Hawke is that Hawke has no chances to be special, not that Hawke is incapable of being special. Pulling from the point I made above, there are no true multiple endings for DAII, only one. It was more like a prologue, unfortunately. It's true that none of the companions had any reason to respect of accompany Hawke, but that's not Hawke's fault.

Take the meeting with Varric; Hawke gets pickpocketed, Varric helps her out and they start a partnership. Or take Anders, who Hawke meets by hearing that as a Grey Warden he just MUST have an amazing exact map and keys and guides to the Deep Roads below Kirkwall, so she kills three templars and Anders joins(deus ex machina, much?). Those meetings and those relationships, in all their lackluster botchedness, are not the Hawke character's fault. That's plot, and bad plot at that. Now, if Knight-Commander Meredith was about to enslave Anders for all eternity when Justice emerges, and Hawke beats the living Hell out of Anders to snap him out of the exalted fury, or kills Knight-Commander Meredith, your choice, Anders would thank her for possibly saving his life and join him. If DAII had that kind of plot, I doubt Hawke would get as much heat for being boring, because she isn't in the middle of a boring story in which only boring problems and boring solutions arise.

She is a Kiddie Train, no doubt. And the Warden is superior because as least the Warden was a Bumper Car, right? But it's not Hawke's fault she was put on a track, is it?

Hawke is incapable of being special. BioWare made her that way. If she was meant to be special, then she needed to be able to make real differences. Like say not waiting until dark to go after a certain person to save them, oh excuse me...let them die anyways.  She would have been able to talk a certain person out of a certain act. She would have been able to stop the Rite of Annulment without fighting.

Hawke wasn't bland, ineffectual, or lacking in being epic because of my lack of imagination. She was already written to be that way, and a class A schmuck too.

So, basically, you're saying Hawke is only special because of her compaions (Varric who helps her get fame and fortune, Anders who has the maps and was special enough to be a Grey Warden...yep Hawke is just that not special).

Psst...I love to have debates by the way, so please don't think I don't enjoy your views. I do. I waned to say that as the hostility can get out of hand around here, and I like agreeing to disagree. :happy:

And with that, I am going to go play my Dalish Elf (see avatar) who is about to do the Joining. I am trying to decide, in my imagination, if she and Tamlen were lovers and betrothed or just best friends. I had the room you see to make that up for myself.

Modifié par erynnar, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:11 .

[por favor]

Persephone wrote...

DAO didn't really offer so many more options, in fact, in DAO, clicking on THREE different responses in the same dialogue (Reloading) led to NPCs saying the exact same thing, no matter WHAT the Warden said. 

This has to do with Hawke...how?

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

Hawke is incapable of being special. BioWare made her that way. If she was meant to be special, then she needed to be able to make real differences. Like say not waiting until dark to go after a certain person to save them, oh excuse me...let them die anyways.  She would have been able to talk a certain person out of a certain act. She would have been able to stop the Rite of Annulment without fighting.

Hawke wasn't bland, ineffectual, or lacking in being epic because of my lack of imagination. She was already written to be that way, and a class A schmuck too.

So, basically, you're saying Hawke is only special because of her compaions (Varric who helps her get fame and fortune, Anders who has the maps and was special enough to be a Grey Warden...yep Hawke is just that not special).

Not my Canon Lady Hawke. To me, she was more special than any of my Wardens (Except my Canon gal) Sorry you feel that way about yours though. (Not being sarcastic here either, I'm truly sorry you couldn't enjoy your Hawke)

[Persephone]

por favor wrote...

Persephone wrote...

DAO didn't really offer so many more options, in fact, in DAO, clicking on THREE different responses in the same dialogue (Reloading) led to NPCs saying the exact same thing, no matter WHAT the Warden said. 

This has to do with Hawke...how?

You mentioned many dialogue options. I pointed out how they meant little to nothing in DAO which only offered A & B, sometimes C, in variations. Leading to the same response.

[HowlHowl]

alex90c wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...

xkg wrote...

... ??? ... yeah, I'am listening. What bad news do you have ?

Oh. I figured everyone would get it. Well, as I was saying, if you think Hawke is a crappy character, it's because you made Hawke a crappy character. The choices are limited, yes, but if you compare them to any non-Bioware RPG you find that the slot Hawke fills is much more open for personalization than most RPG protagonists.

It's nothing to do with us making Hawke a crap character during our games, it's the fact that he does NOTHING for ten years besides being a delivery boy for people who are actually slightly relevant because he can't do any damn thing himself. Plus the VAs suck, damn F!Hawke being a posh ******.

Unfortunately, Bioware didn't write every possible dialogue choice that could go through your head when role-playing as Hawke. And it's not the blank slot's fault that Bioware placed it in a boring world. It's Bioware's fault that the story skips three years at a time for no reason, but it's the player's fault if their Hawke has done nothing in that three years time.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I dislike Hawke, because he was projected in a world I found dull, in a story I thought was worse, with a role that I thought was useless and would not make much sense unless I play an irresponsible playboy.

My Hawke was NOT a irresponsible playgal and she definitely made sense to me. Buying into the story makes it or breaks it, essentially.

TW1 Geralt....now THAT is an irresponsible playboy.

Modifié par Persephone, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

HowlHowl wrote...
Unfortunately, Bioware didn't write every possible dialogue choice that could go through your head when role-playing as Hawke. And it's not the blank slot's fault that Bioware placed it in a boring world. It's Bioware's fault that the story skips three years at a time for no reason, but it's the player's fault if their Hawke has done nothing in that three years time.

No, it's not. Not when the beginning of Act 3 makes it clear that Hawke's position on mages / Templars is not known.
Not when what we see in the game forces us to either believe Hawke did nothing, or tried to do a lot but failed miserably because we don't see any of his achievements. Except he wouldn't even be able to do something big to fail that badly, because his failure, against say Meredith, would have meant arrest /execution.  So what he could have done in those 3 years was too small to be significant to anyone.

Furthermore, we as players have no obligation to play 6 years in our head for us to enjoy the protagonist.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I dislike Hawke, because he was projected in a world I found dull, in a story I thought was worse, with a role that I thought was useless and would not make much sense unless I play an irresponsible playboy.

My Hawke was NOT a irresponsible playgal and she definitely made sense to me. Buying into the story makes it or breaks it, essentially.

TW1 Geralt....now THAT is an irresponsible playboy.

That's not something you can avoid. Dress it up all you want, at the end of the day, Hawke is the same (too lazy to do anything about the city crumbling around him until it knocks on his door), in the same story.

Geralt doesn't have to do any women in TW1 and he is certainly not irresponsable.
 

[por favor]

Persephone wrote...

por favor wrote...

Persephone wrote...

DAO didn't really offer so many more options, in fact, in DAO, clicking on THREE different responses in the same dialogue (Reloading) led to NPCs saying the exact same thing, no matter WHAT the Warden said. 

This has to do with Hawke...how?

You mentioned many dialogue options. I pointed out how they meant little to nothing in DAO which only offered A & B, sometimes C, in variations. Leading to the same response.

I mentioned limited dialogue options, not many dialogue options. Also, I still don't see what DA:O has to do with this. I never said "DA:II HAS LIMITED OPTIONS! DA:O IS FAR SUPERIOR BECAUSE IT HAS MANNYY!"

I was actually pointing out that the limited dialogue options for Hawke allow for limited character personlization. So, I really don't see what direction you were going in with bringing DA:O up. I never even mentioned it.

[HowlHowl]

erynnar wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...

erynnar wrote...

And your very point about people and their imaginations and their Wardens being boring, and not as engaing as well (not that the Warden wasn't voiced). It wasn't the dialogue choices and no voice, rather the player's lack of imaginations?

Um, I dislike Hawke because she was a flat paper doll who was BioWare's character so much so that I didn't have a lot of room to imagine her personality. She was a milksop who let everything happen around her or to her, but never really had the ability to make things happen. I dislike Hawke because she can only be Happy, Sneezy, Douchy, or have Personality Affect Disorder.

I dislike Hawke, because she is the railroad car on the tracks at the kiddy park. I dislike Hawke because she was a Fed Ex messenger and a shill for being used by her companions (they had no reason to stick with her, or respect her). She wasn't exceptional in the way that my characters were who became Grey Wardens.  I mean, I don't see Duncan recruiting Hawke to the Grey, she is just not that great. She's, lets face it a premade, railroaded, linear schmuck who goes into a coma for three years at different times whle the world falls apart (well except the city, it never changes).

And actually, dislike is too strong a word, I am ambivilant about her. I neither hate, nor like her. I can't decide if I would ****** on her to put her out if she was on fire. By the time I got through trying to overcome my apathy for her, she would be a pile of ashes. Such is the meh I feel for her. 

I feel more for the companions than I do Hawke, because she was never had enough perceived space given to me by BioWare to use my imagination for Hawke and flesh her out.  Why bother using my imagination for her? BioWare just wanted me to use her to get from one movie scene to another. She was a vehicle to get to the cut aways for the story BioWare wanted to tell (yes the Warden was too, but the Warden was a bumper car not a kiddy train).

I would say no, it wasn't the lack of dialogue choice. Hell, Wardens had significantly more choice than Hawke. What DA:O lacked in dialogue effect and the Warden's voice, it made up for with giving the player the choice of different actions for different reasons. Take the ending of DA:O, for example.

Would you feel the same way if you could choose to make Hawke a dwarf or an elf? Are you ambivalent toward Shepard of ME too, and the Warden? Based on what you say, the problem with Hawke is that Hawke has no chances to be special, not that Hawke is incapable of being special. Pulling from the point I made above, there are no true multiple endings for DAII, only one. It was more like a prologue, unfortunately. It's true that none of the companions had any reason to respect of accompany Hawke, but that's not Hawke's fault.

Take the meeting with Varric; Hawke gets pickpocketed, Varric helps her out and they start a partnership. Or take Anders, who Hawke meets by hearing that as a Grey Warden he just MUST have an amazing exact map and keys and guides to the Deep Roads below Kirkwall, so she kills three templars and Anders joins(deus ex machina, much?). Those meetings and those relationships, in all their lackluster botchedness, are not the Hawke character's fault. That's plot, and bad plot at that. Now, if Knight-Commander Meredith was about to enslave Anders for all eternity when Justice emerges, and Hawke beats the living Hell out of Anders to snap him out of the exalted fury, or kills Knight-Commander Meredith, your choice, Anders would thank her for possibly saving his life and join him. If DAII had that kind of plot, I doubt Hawke would get as much heat for being boring, because she isn't in the middle of a boring story in which only boring problems and boring solutions arise.

She is a Kiddie Train, no doubt. And the Warden is superior because as least the Warden was a Bumper Car, right? But it's not Hawke's fault she was put on a track, is it?

Hawke is incapable of being special. BioWare made her that way. If she was meant to be special, then she needed to be able to make real differences. Like say not waiting until dark to go after a certain person to save them, oh excuse me...let them die anyways.  She would have been able to talk a certain person out of a certain act. She would have been able to stop the Rite of Annulment without fighting.

Hawke wasn't bland, ineffectual, or lacking in being epic because of my lack of imagination. She was already written to be that way, and a class A schmuck too.

So, basically, you're saying Hawke is only special because of her compaions (Varric who helps her get fame and fortune, Anders who has the maps and was special enough to be a Grey Warden...yep Hawke is just that not special).

Psst...I love to have debates by the way, so please don't think I don't enjoy your views. I do. I waned to say that as the hostility can get out of hand around here, and I like agreeing to disagree. :happy:

And with that, I am going to go play my Dalish Elf (see avatar) who is about to do the Joining. I am trying to decide, in my imagination, if she and Tamlen were lovers and betrothed or just best friends. I had the room you see to make that up for myself.

I was actually saying the opposite, that Hawke's companions don't make her special, but that given the chance to be special, Hawke could and would be so.

But alright.

[Aaleel]

HowlHowl wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

kromify wrote...

alistair red blooded? i didn't see that coming...

imo people hate not having origin stories. hawke is the best viable target

Man if I see "It's not Dragon Age 2, it's people wanting more of Origins" one more time I'll scream.  This is not the answer for everything.

I'll take peoples' word they made great Hawke's, personally I didn't find Hawke interesting at all.  Did problems with the game cause Hawke to be guilty by association, maybe. 

But at the same time, I still wanted to play through Hawke's first year and see how I made my underworld name, and why I decided to stay when the Blight ended.  I wanted more interactions with my family, more mission dealing with my families history.  So maybe I didn't like Hawke because of that, who knows.

But to say if someone didn't like Hawke they have no imagination or missed Origins I think is nonsense.

Your point about wanting to see more of the first year is exxactly what I'm talking about. In DAII, unfortunately, you have to make up your own story for that first year. Bioware's laziness, or incompetence(I don't know which at this point) in that right is what makes Hawke seem boring. But he/she doesn't have to be. Granted, I'm not saying it wouldn't be much better actually playing that out and getting the chance to make real decisions, I'm saying Bioware dropped the ball, so Hawke's true self is the responsibility of the player.

I'd rather write my own fanfic, which i did.  My Hawke in the fanfic is fantastic, but Hawke in the game was not interesting.  I had to assume to much, and was told too much, rather than being able to play through it. 

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I dislike Hawke, because he was projected in a world I found dull, in a story I thought was worse, with a role that I thought was useless and would not make much sense unless I play an irresponsible playboy.

My Hawke was NOT a irresponsible playgal and she definitely made sense to me. Buying into the story makes it or breaks it, essentially.

TW1 Geralt....now THAT is an irresponsible playboy.

That's not something you can avoid. Dress it up all you want, at the end of the day, Hawke is the same (too lazy to do anything about the city crumbling around him until it knocks on his door), in the same story.

Geralt doesn't have to do any women in TW1 and he is certainly not irresponsable.
 

My Lady Hawke did not WANT to be a political force. I guess that's the difference.

And Geralt not irresponsible in TW1? That's part of his charm.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
My Lady Hawke did not WANT to be a political force. I guess that's the difference.

And Geralt not irresponsible in TW1? That's part of his charm.

So your Hawke did not want to do anything about the mage / templar conflict that is threatening to destroy the city she is living in, despite being able to, until Orsino's speech disturbed her from her meal / staring at her naked neighbour. That for me is lazy and irresponsable.

Of course my opinion is irrelevent to your enjoyement of the game and character. I am happy for you.
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:26 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
My Lady Hawke did not WANT to be a political force. I guess that's the difference.

And Geralt not irresponsible in TW1? That's part of his charm.

So your Hawke did not want to do anything about the mage / templar conflict that is threatening to destroy the city she is living in, despite being able to, until Orsino's speech disturbed her from her meal / staring at her naked neighbour. That for me is lazy and irresponsable.

Of course my opinion is irrelevent to your enjoyement of the game and character. I am happy for you.
 

No. She did not. She was more concerned about saving the man she loved. And with the fixed Rivalry ending, she somewhat succeeded in that.

[Demx]

You see that rock over there, it's not his fault that you find it plain and boring. It's not his fault that you couldn't think of a great story of how it got there. It's not his fault I tell you.

[por favor]

Off topic, but KnightOfPhoenix, what is your avatar from? The character looks very familiar.

[HowlHowl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...
Unfortunately, Bioware didn't write every possible dialogue choice that could go through your head when role-playing as Hawke. And it's not the blank slot's fault that Bioware placed it in a boring world. It's Bioware's fault that the story skips three years at a time for no reason, but it's the player's fault if their Hawke has done nothing in that three years time.

No, it's not. Not when the beginning of Act 3 makes it clear that Hawke's position on mages / Templars is not known.
Not when what we see in the game forces us to either believe Hawke did nothing, or tried to do a lot but failed miserably because we don't see any of his achievements. Except he wouldn't even be able to do something big to fail that badly, because his failure, against say Meredith, would have meant arrest /execution.  So what he could have done in those 3 years was too small to be significant to anyone.

Furthermore, we as players have no obligation to play 6 years in our head for us to enjoy the protagonist.

My Hawke was formulating a plan over that three years. You see, Hawke didn't RULE Kirkwall or anything, so just going up to the Viscount the Knight-Commander and telling him what's what isn't exactly the best way to avoid being speared in the back by a guard or templar. For me, Hawke was trying to cook something up with Varric(and his underworld ties) and Aveline(with her Guard authority) to keep the city from bursting into flames, but his rocky relationship with Isabela took a lot of that time up(my Hawke isn't as "free-living" as Isabella, and what made matters worse, the escalating situation with the Circle of Mages and the Chantry distracted him becuase he worried about his sister too. As for Hawke's apparent position on mages, that's from the perspective of other people. In truth, my Hawke felt for his sister, but also did not trust Anders, almost as much as he did not trust Fenris's anti-mage bigotry.

That is not a flat character. That is not a character with no mind and no place. Just because Hawke didn't stop a blight, and just because some players need to be spoonfed plot points to make their characters full, doesn't mean Hawke is a crappy character. I wonder, before Dragon Age and Mass Effect, what did all of you DO for RPG games? Because a large majority of them have characters that pale in comparison to what you can do with an admittedly boring template.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
No. She did not. She was more concerned about saving the man she loved. And with the fixed Rivalry ending, she somewhat succeeded in that.

And that for me is irresponsable and selfish.
And that's how I am forced to play my Hawke, for the game to make sense to me. I do not like to play that kind of character as a rule, unless the story was written so well that I could enjoy it, but I didn't think DA2's story fit that requirement.

Anywho, just my opinion.

And I gtg. Cheers.

[FieryDove]

I wanted my last Hawke to leave Kirkwall at the end of chapter 2. He couldn't/didn't so yeah I blame Hawke.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Por favor
David Xanatos.

HowlHowl wrote...
My Hawke was formulating a plan over that three years. You see, Hawke didn't RULE Kirkwall or anything, so just going up to the Viscount the Knight-Commander and telling him what's what isn't exactly the best way to avoid being speared in the back by a guard or templar. For me, Hawke was trying to cook something up with Varric(and his underworld ties) and Aveline(with her Guard authority) to keep the city from bursting into flames, but his rocky relationship with Isabela took a lot of that time up(my Hawke isn't as "free-living" as Isabella, and what made matters worse, the escalating situation with the Circle of Mages and the Chantry distracted him becuase he worried about his sister too. As for Hawke's apparent position on mages, that's from the perspective of other people. In truth, my Hawke felt for his sister, but also did not trust Anders, almost as much as he did not trust Fenris's anti-mage bigotry.

Not only is all of that an illusion that is never alluded in the game, but that is useless. Formulating a plan is nothing, it's working on achieving it. But apparently there was too much distractions in 3 years. So the only "action" that I can RP my Hawke was doing, is thinking.

Not appealing to me in the slightest. I do not feel obligated to rp a 3 years gap a story in my head to enjoy a PC. But if that's appealing to you, good for you.

Anyways, gtg. Cheers.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:37 .

[HowlHowl]

Siradix wrote...

You see that rock over there, it's not his fault that you find it plain and boring. It's not his fault that you couldn't think of a great story of how it got there. It's not his fault I tell you.

That rock was the rock that Lucifer threw into the sea when he forsook God and his angel brethren. For centuries' the rock waned and was chipped down to it's lackluster state through the open seas and harsh sands of the Mediterranean Sea. This same rock landed on the shores of the Italian peninsula and was kicked and rolled into Rome in 38 AD. When Caligula declared war on Neptune, and the Sea, this was the rock he cast into the water. Sir, that rock has experienced vastly more of the world and time than you or I have.

[HowlHowl]

Aaleel wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

kromify wrote...

alistair red blooded? i didn't see that coming...

imo people hate not having origin stories. hawke is the best viable target

Man if I see "It's not Dragon Age 2, it's people wanting more of Origins" one more time I'll scream.  This is not the answer for everything.

I'll take peoples' word they made great Hawke's, personally I didn't find Hawke interesting at all.  Did problems with the game cause Hawke to be guilty by association, maybe. 

But at the same time, I still wanted to play through Hawke's first year and see how I made my underworld name, and why I decided to stay when the Blight ended.  I wanted more interactions with my family, more mission dealing with my families history.  So maybe I didn't like Hawke because of that, who knows.

But to say if someone didn't like Hawke they have no imagination or missed Origins I think is nonsense.

Your point about wanting to see more of the first year is exxactly what I'm talking about. In DAII, unfortunately, you have to make up your own story for that first year. Bioware's laziness, or incompetence(I don't know which at this point) in that right is what makes Hawke seem boring. But he/she doesn't have to be. Granted, I'm not saying it wouldn't be much better actually playing that out and getting the chance to make real decisions, I'm saying Bioware dropped the ball, so Hawke's true self is the responsibility of the player.

I'd rather write my own fanfic, which i did.  My Hawke in the fanfic is fantastic, but Hawke in the game was not interesting.  I had to assume to much, and was told too much, rather than being able to play through it. 

I'm with you there, 100%. Bioware could have and should have fleshed out a whole lot more story and should have put more work into letting Hawke actually accomplish something. But I blame Bioware for the lack there-of.

[erynnar]

HowlHowl wrote...

erynnar wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...

erynnar wrote...

And your very point about people and their imaginations and their Wardens being boring, and not as engaing as well (not that the Warden wasn't voiced). It wasn't the dialogue choices and no voice, rather the player's lack of imaginations?

Um, I dislike Hawke because she was a flat paper doll who was BioWare's character so much so that I didn't have a lot of room to imagine her personality. She was a milksop who let everything happen around her or to her, but never really had the ability to make things happen. I dislike Hawke because she can only be Happy, Sneezy, Douchy, or have Personality Affect Disorder.

I dislike Hawke, because she is the railroad car on the tracks at the kiddy park. I dislike Hawke because she was a Fed Ex messenger and a shill for being used by her companions (they had no reason to stick with her, or respect her). She wasn't exceptional in the way that my characters were who became Grey Wardens.  I mean, I don't see Duncan recruiting Hawke to the Grey, she is just not that great. She's, lets face it a premade, railroaded, linear schmuck who goes into a coma for three years at different times whle the world falls apart (well except the city, it never changes).

And actually, dislike is too strong a word, I am ambivilant about her. I neither hate, nor like her. I can't decide if I would ****** on her to put her out if she was on fire. By the time I got through trying to overcome my apathy for her, she would be a pile of ashes. Such is the meh I feel for her. 

I feel more for the companions than I do Hawke, because she was never had enough perceived space given to me by BioWare to use my imagination for Hawke and flesh her out.  Why bother using my imagination for her? BioWare just wanted me to use her to get from one movie scene to another. She was a vehicle to get to the cut aways for the story BioWare wanted to tell (yes the Warden was too, but the Warden was a bumper car not a kiddy train).

I would say no, it wasn't the lack of dialogue choice. Hell, Wardens had significantly more choice than Hawke. What DA:O lacked in dialogue effect and the Warden's voice, it made up for with giving the player the choice of different actions for different reasons. Take the ending of DA:O, for example.

Would you feel the same way if you could choose to make Hawke a dwarf or an elf? Are you ambivalent toward Shepard of ME too, and the Warden? Based on what you say, the problem with Hawke is that Hawke has no chances to be special, not that Hawke is incapable of being special. Pulling from the point I made above, there are no true multiple endings for DAII, only one. It was more like a prologue, unfortunately. It's true that none of the companions had any reason to respect of accompany Hawke, but that's not Hawke's fault.

Take the meeting with Varric; Hawke gets pickpocketed, Varric helps her out and they start a partnership. Or take Anders, who Hawke meets by hearing that as a Grey Warden he just MUST have an amazing exact map and keys and guides to the Deep Roads below Kirkwall, so she kills three templars and Anders joins(deus ex machina, much?). Those meetings and those relationships, in all their lackluster botchedness, are not the Hawke character's fault. That's plot, and bad plot at that. Now, if Knight-Commander Meredith was about to enslave Anders for all eternity when Justice emerges, and Hawke beats the living Hell out of Anders to snap him out of the exalted fury, or kills Knight-Commander Meredith, your choice, Anders would thank her for possibly saving his life and join him. If DAII had that kind of plot, I doubt Hawke would get as much heat for being boring, because she isn't in the middle of a boring story in which only boring problems and boring solutions arise.

She is a Kiddie Train, no doubt. And the Warden is superior because as least the Warden was a Bumper Car, right? But it's not Hawke's fault she was put on a track, is it?

Hawke is incapable of being special. BioWare made her that way. If she was meant to be special, then she needed to be able to make real differences. Like say not waiting until dark to go after a certain person to save them, oh excuse me...let them die anyways.  She would have been able to talk a certain person out of a certain act. She would have been able to stop the Rite of Annulment without fighting.

Hawke wasn't bland, ineffectual, or lacking in being epic because of my lack of imagination. She was already written to be that way, and a class A schmuck too.

So, basically, you're saying Hawke is only special because of her compaions (Varric who helps her get fame and fortune, Anders who has the maps and was special enough to be a Grey Warden...yep Hawke is just that not special).

Psst...I love to have debates by the way, so please don't think I don't enjoy your views. I do. I waned to say that as the hostility can get out of hand around here, and I like agreeing to disagree. :happy:

And with that, I am going to go play my Dalish Elf (see avatar) who is about to do the Joining. I am trying to decide, in my imagination, if she and Tamlen were lovers and betrothed or just best friends. I had the room you see to make that up for myself.

I was actually saying the opposite, that Hawke's companions don't make her special, but that given the chance to be special, Hawke could and would be so.

But alright.

Ah! Sorry! Reading comprehension fail! My apologies. And I argue that without them, she woulldn't be anyone of consequence. LOL! My bad Howl, hope you'll forgive my flub.

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Hawke is incapable of being special. BioWare made her that way. If she was meant to be special, then she needed to be able to make real differences. Like say not waiting until dark to go after a certain person to save them, oh excuse me...let them die anyways.  She would have been able to talk a certain person out of a certain act. She would have been able to stop the Rite of Annulment without fighting.

Hawke wasn't bland, ineffectual, or lacking in being epic because of my lack of imagination. She was already written to be that way, and a class A schmuck too.

So, basically, you're saying Hawke is only special because of her compaions (Varric who helps her get fame and fortune, Anders who has the maps and was special enough to be a Grey Warden...yep Hawke is just that not special).

Not my Canon Lady Hawke. To me, she was more special than any of my Wardens (Except my Canon gal) Sorry you feel that way about yours though. (Not being sarcastic here either, I'm truly sorry you couldn't enjoy your Hawke)

I didn't connect with her, lets say. And thanks Ms. P, I am very happy you loved yours (really, no sarcasm) I did enjoy my snarky mage, I just didn't connect on a deep level like I have with all of my Wardens. So not enjoy? No, I did my mage, just not as much. There, I have to be honest.

[erynnar]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Por favor
David Xanatos.

HowlHowl wrote...
My Hawke was formulating a plan over that three years. You see, Hawke didn't RULE Kirkwall or anything, so just going up to the Viscount the Knight-Commander and telling him what's what isn't exactly the best way to avoid being speared in the back by a guard or templar. For me, Hawke was trying to cook something up with Varric(and his underworld ties) and Aveline(with her Guard authority) to keep the city from bursting into flames, but his rocky relationship with Isabela took a lot of that time up(my Hawke isn't as "free-living" as Isabella, and what made matters worse, the escalating situation with the Circle of Mages and the Chantry distracted him becuase he worried about his sister too. As for Hawke's apparent position on mages, that's from the perspective of other people. In truth, my Hawke felt for his sister, but also did not trust Anders, almost as much as he did not trust Fenris's anti-mage bigotry.

Not only is all of that an illusion that is never alluded in the game, but that is useless. Formulating a plan is nothing, it's working on achieving it. But apparently there was too much distractions in 3 years. So the only "action" that I can RP my Hawke was doing, is thinking.

Not appealing to me in the slightest. I do not feel obligated to rp a 3 years gap a story in my head to enjoy a PC. But if that's appealing to you, good for you.

Anyways, gtg. Cheers.

Yeah, those three year coma gaps really didn't help much. If they had been three months, more believeable.  But I don't enjoy having to role play three year blank spots, because if I had, I would have been doing something to stop what was gong on. Or hunting someone killing people. etc.