163 réponses à ce sujet

[por favor]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Por favor
David Xanatos.

OMG I LOVED THAT SHOW GROWING UP

okay, okay no more off-topic. :innocent:

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Por favor
David Xanatos.

HowlHowl wrote...
My Hawke was formulating a plan over that three years. You see, Hawke didn't RULE Kirkwall or anything, so just going up to the Viscount the Knight-Commander and telling him what's what isn't exactly the best way to avoid being speared in the back by a guard or templar. For me, Hawke was trying to cook something up with Varric(and his underworld ties) and Aveline(with her Guard authority) to keep the city from bursting into flames, but his rocky relationship with Isabela took a lot of that time up(my Hawke isn't as "free-living" as Isabella, and what made matters worse, the escalating situation with the Circle of Mages and the Chantry distracted him becuase he worried about his sister too. As for Hawke's apparent position on mages, that's from the perspective of other people. In truth, my Hawke felt for his sister, but also did not trust Anders, almost as much as he did not trust Fenris's anti-mage bigotry.

Not only is all of that an illusion that is never alluded in the game, but that is useless. Formulating a plan is nothing, it's working on achieving it. But apparently there was too much distractions in 3 years. So the only "action" that I can RP my Hawke was doing, is thinking.

Not appealing to me in the slightest. I do not feel obligated to rp a 3 years gap a story in my head to enjoy a PC. But if that's appealing to you, good for you.

Anyways, gtg. Cheers.

Yeah, those three year coma gaps really didn't help much. If they had been three months, more believeable.  But I don't enjoy having to role play three year blank spots, because if I had, I would have been doing something to stop what was gong on. Or hunting someone killing people. etc.

With this I agree.

How about...I dunno.........asking how Hawke would spend those three years & present you with a few choices? (That influence how the next Act plays out) Even if they are just Epilogue Slidery Dos Box questions where you make a few choices & Varric tells them to Cassandra in a few lines?

Just a thought.

[HowlHowl]

Persephone wrote...

erynnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Por favor
David Xanatos.

HowlHowl wrote...
My Hawke was formulating a plan over that three years. You see, Hawke didn't RULE Kirkwall or anything, so just going up to the Viscount the Knight-Commander and telling him what's what isn't exactly the best way to avoid being speared in the back by a guard or templar. For me, Hawke was trying to cook something up with Varric(and his underworld ties) and Aveline(with her Guard authority) to keep the city from bursting into flames, but his rocky relationship with Isabela took a lot of that time up(my Hawke isn't as "free-living" as Isabella, and what made matters worse, the escalating situation with the Circle of Mages and the Chantry distracted him becuase he worried about his sister too. As for Hawke's apparent position on mages, that's from the perspective of other people. In truth, my Hawke felt for his sister, but also did not trust Anders, almost as much as he did not trust Fenris's anti-mage bigotry.

Not only is all of that an illusion that is never alluded in the game, but that is useless. Formulating a plan is nothing, it's working on achieving it. But apparently there was too much distractions in 3 years. So the only "action" that I can RP my Hawke was doing, is thinking.

Not appealing to me in the slightest. I do not feel obligated to rp a 3 years gap a story in my head to enjoy a PC. But if that's appealing to you, good for you.

Anyways, gtg. Cheers.

Yeah, those three year coma gaps really didn't help much. If they had been three months, more believeable.  But I don't enjoy having to role play three year blank spots, because if I had, I would have been doing something to stop what was gong on. Or hunting someone killing people. etc.

With this I agree.

How about...I dunno.........asking how Hawke would spend those three years & present you with a few choices? (That influence how the next Act plays out) Even if they are just Epilogue Slidery Dos Box questions where you make a few choices & Varric tells them to Cassandra in a few lines?

Just a thought.

That's a great idea that would have been a great addition to the story telling. It's easy things like that not being in the game that make me think Bioware weren't lazy, just incompetent.

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

erynnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Por favor
David Xanatos.

HowlHowl wrote...
My Hawke was formulating a plan over that three years. You see, Hawke didn't RULE Kirkwall or anything, so just going up to the Viscount the Knight-Commander and telling him what's what isn't exactly the best way to avoid being speared in the back by a guard or templar. For me, Hawke was trying to cook something up with Varric(and his underworld ties) and Aveline(with her Guard authority) to keep the city from bursting into flames, but his rocky relationship with Isabela took a lot of that time up(my Hawke isn't as "free-living" as Isabella, and what made matters worse, the escalating situation with the Circle of Mages and the Chantry distracted him becuase he worried about his sister too. As for Hawke's apparent position on mages, that's from the perspective of other people. In truth, my Hawke felt for his sister, but also did not trust Anders, almost as much as he did not trust Fenris's anti-mage bigotry.

Not only is all of that an illusion that is never alluded in the game, but that is useless. Formulating a plan is nothing, it's working on achieving it. But apparently there was too much distractions in 3 years. So the only "action" that I can RP my Hawke was doing, is thinking.

Not appealing to me in the slightest. I do not feel obligated to rp a 3 years gap a story in my head to enjoy a PC. But if that's appealing to you, good for you.

Anyways, gtg. Cheers.

Yeah, those three year coma gaps really didn't help much. If they had been three months, more believeable.  But I don't enjoy having to role play three year blank spots, because if I had, I would have been doing something to stop what was gong on. Or hunting someone killing people. etc.

With this I agree.

How about...I dunno.........asking how Hawke would spend those three years & present you with a few choices? (That influence how the next Act plays out) Even if they are just Epilogue Slidery Dos Box questions where you make a few choices & Varric tells them to Cassandra in a few lines?

Just a thought.

Now this^ would have been awesome. But Ms. P is a brilliant lady.

[xkg]

Persephone wrote...

How about...I dunno.........asking how Hawke would spend those three years & present you with a few choices? (That influence how the next Act plays out) Even if they are just Epilogue Slidery Dos Box questions where you make a few choices & Varric tells them to Cassandra in a few lines?

Just a thought.

Sorry for my stupid off-topic question but i can see you canstantly refering to "DOS" together with "slides". What do you mean by this ?

[Caelaias]

HowlHowl wrote...

There's no question about it, Dragon Age II, or "Broken" Age, has more than its fair share of missteps, bad designs, shoddy mechanics, and annoying shortcomings(one city and one mountain...really?), but I often see it thrown in the pixelated faces of the wrong "people". I see a lot of hate for Hawke. Especially when the idea of DAIII being about a third new protagonist is thrown around. I mean, A LOT of hate. But why? Hawke, after all, isn't a specific character so much as a slot to be filled. The whole point is that you choose what exactly makes Hawke worth watching. That's sort of one of the aspects of "role-playing". When you blame a blank character slate for DAII's much-too-short story, lacking environments, and, well, lacking everything-else, you show the worst kind of nerd rage, the most dangerous kind of nerd rage, blind nerd rage. Yes, the writing could use improvements, and yes, relationships and personalities in DAII are rigid and much too linear. But DA:O had that same problem. Hell, everything Bioware releases has that problem.

For example:

Alistair: Good-looking mostly clean-cut white guy who likes to rebel against a higher authority(the chantry) because they restrict his oh-so red-blooded freedom.

Anders: see Alistair. Replace "chantry" with "circle".

I just don't see where all the Hawke hate comes from. Just because he/she is the link between you and an arguably disappointing installment, doesn't make him/her the problem. I'd at least like to see Hawke's story finished(properly, not like DAII's half-story) in DAIII so that whole "WHERE IS HAWKE, ONLY HAWKE CAN FIX THE WORDL!" schtick wasn't just nonsense that DAIII has to sidestep around. But seriesly, if you hate Hawke because you think he/she is a crappy protagonist, I have some bad news for you and your imagination...

I would just like to say that that I agree with all of the above.
I thought Hawke was a great character.. I really had no problems with no Hawke..
there was alot of other things I didn't like AT ALL, Hawke not being one of them.

***EDIT***

On a side note: I dont really see this a DA2 but like a FILLER ARC for the next game.
as I didn't really liked the story ( not that it was totally bad ( year 1, mages and templars is the problem, year 2 Arishock and mages, year 3 all mages must DIE! WTF? ))
Oh and also hate that the Mabari warhound is a summoned creature.
why didn't they just make it follow you around everywhere.
or do as they did in DA:O a companion.

But I am REALLY hoping DAIII will be a heck of alot better.

Modifié par Caelaias, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:43 .

[Persephone]

xkg wrote...

Persephone wrote...

How about...I dunno.........asking how Hawke would spend those three years & present you with a few choices? (That influence how the next Act plays out) Even if they are just Epilogue Slidery Dos Box questions where you make a few choices & Varric tells them to Cassandra in a few lines?

Just a thought.

Sorry for my stupid off-topic question but i can see you canstantly refering to "DOS" together with "slides". What do you mean by this ?

Not stupid at all.

I sometimes refer to DAO's Epilogue Slides to Dos like text boxes. (Even the ancient NES Pirates! had those once you finished your Swashbuckling career)

[Morroian]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Furthermore, we as players have no obligation to play 6 years in our head for us to enjoy the protagonist.

Every game has gaps, surely in a role playing games it is the players responsibility to fill in those gaps to make a rounded character in their mind. The Warden in DAO is not a full rounded character just from the options in the game, I have to fill in the gaps there as well.

[TheRealJayDee]

FieryDove wrote...

I wanted my last Hawke to leave Kirkwall at the end of chapter 2. He couldn't/didn't so yeah I blame Hawke.

A thousand times this. My first (and 'main') Hawke really had little to no reason to stay in Kirkwall after the second act. Which irritated me a lot and made Act 3 even less appealing...

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Furthermore, we as players have no obligation to play 6 years in our head for us to enjoy the protagonist.

Every game has gaps, surely in a role playing games it is the players responsibility to fill in those gaps to make a rounded character in their mind. The Warden in DAO is not a full rounded character just from the options in the game, I have to fill in the gaps there as well.

True, but those gaps don't include 3 year black outs while the word crumbles around you. There are plenty of gaps for my Wardens but those gaps are not esential to the state of the world or even the Warden's world. Three year comas are a little much for blank spaces to fill. They're not so much blank spaces as huge gaping chasms.

If those gaps had been say...three months rather than years? Well, I could have fillled those in sure.

[Aaleel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, it's not. Not when the beginning of Act 3 makes it clear that Hawke's position on mages / Templars is not known.
Not when what we see in the game forces us to either believe Hawke did nothing, or tried to do a lot but failed miserably because we don't see any of his achievements. Except he wouldn't even be able to do something big to fail that badly, because his failure, against say Meredith, would have meant arrest /execution.  So what he could have done in those 3 years was too small to be significant to anyone.

Furthermore, we as players have no obligation to play 6 years in our head for us to enjoy the protagonist.

This was my whole problem.  You have to fill in the first year, and both three year gaps.  Then you only actually play through what, less than a year? If I'm going to have to fill in 90% of the time I might as well write a fan fic, which I ended up doing.  That's just way too much to make the player account for. 

And honestly at that point are you filling in gaps in the game's story or is the game filling in gaps in your story

[ItsTheTruth]

Hawke sucks because DA2 sucks, or the other way around. It is like the chicken and egg dilemma.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

Hawke sucks because DA2 sucks, or the other way around. It is like the chicken and egg dilemma.

Whie I wouldn't phrase it that way, I agree that it's hard for me to take a protagonist in isolation, especioally if he is not established from before, but is introduced in the game. If I didn't like much about the game in general and thought that the story / setting / design was bad / mediocre, the protagonist is going to have a hard tme interesting me.
Add to that other factors, and Hawke was all around my least favorite protagonist, in my least favorite RPG.

[Morroian]

erynnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Every game has gaps, surely in a role playing games it is the players responsibility to fill in those gaps to make a rounded character in their mind. The Warden in DAO is not a full rounded character just from the options in the game, I have to fill in the gaps there as well.

True, but those gaps don't include 3 year black outs while the word crumbles around you. There are plenty of gaps for my Wardens but those gaps are not esential to the state of the world or even the Warden's world. Three year comas are a little much for blank spaces to fill. They're not so much blank spaces as huge gaping chasms. 

Its harder and while Kirkwall is heading towards the abyss my interpretation is that it wouldn't  have necessarily been noticeable how bad things were to those living in Kirkwall. After all its not until Act 3 that you discover Meredith has asked for permission to enact the 'you know what' well in advance of Anders actions, and its really only Anders actions that create the crisis point.

Aaleel wrote...

This was my whole problem.  You have to fill in the first year, and both three year gaps.  Then you only actually play through what, less than a year? If I'm going to have to fill in 90% of the time I might as well write a fan fic, which I ended up doing.  That's just way too much to make the player account for.  

The game is disjointed as it is with 3 large acts, creating more would add to that issue. Maybe they should have shortened the timeline to say 5 years or I guess they could have done something like have a prologue for each act with maybe say 1-2 quests that acts as a summary for what hapened in the gap.

Modifié par Morroian, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morroian wrote...
Its harder and while Kirkwall is heading towards the abyss my interpretation is that it wouldn't  have necessarily been noticeable how bad things were to those living in Kirkwall. After all its not until Act 3 that you discover Meredith has asked for permission to enact the 'you know what' well in advance of Anders actions, and its really only Anders actions that create the crisis point.

The mage resistance and people being angry at Meredith and helping mages was in Act 2 (Thrashk was in act 2 as well. Rumors of Meredith being insane as well).
One would have to be pretty blind not to notice that it's getting worse and worse.

Furthermore, the very moment Meredith blocks the election of a new Viscount immediately after act 2, is a huge signal. 

[Aaleel]

Morroian wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

This was my whole problem.  You have to fill in the first year, and both three year gaps.  Then you only actually play through what, less than a year? If I'm going to have to fill in 90% of the time I might as well write a fan fic, which I ended up doing.  That's just way too much to make the player account for.  

The game is disjointed as it is with 3 large acts, creating more would add to that issue. Maybe they should have shortened the timeline to say 5 years or I guess they could have done something like have a prologue for each act with maybe say 1-2 quests that acts as a summary for what hapened in the gap.

I don't agree with this.  The framed narrative was not used used nearly enough. 

I magine if you had played the first year, and at the end when you did whatever the last mission was that earned you your name.  Cut to Varric and Cassandra talking "The champion had made a name for himself/herself, he/she had even caught my eye as well and I knew then that he/she would be a great ally in the future.  But I didn't know how good a friend....

Straight into the next act, smooth transition.  You know how you earned your name, and why Varric respected you enough to bring you in on the expedition in the next act.

If you're going to use the framed narrative, use it.

Modifié par Aaleel, 03 juillet 2011 - 01:14 .

[Morroian]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Its harder and while Kirkwall is heading towards the abyss my interpretation is that it wouldn't  have necessarily been noticeable how bad things were to those living in Kirkwall. After all its not until Act 3 that you discover Meredith has asked for permission to enact the 'you know what' well in advance of Anders actions, and its really only Anders actions that create the crisis point.

The mage resistance and people being angry at Meredith and helping mages was in Act 2 (Thrashk was in act 2 as well. Rumors of Meredith being insane as well).
One would have to be pretty blind not to notice that it's getting worse and worse. 

Getting worse but not necessarily heading towards what ended up happening. Act 3 is Hawke's lightbulb moment.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Furthermore, the very moment Meredith blocks the election of a new Viscount immediately after act 2, is a huge signal. 

The templars have always been the actual power in Kirkwall. You could role play it as Hawke accepting it while things calm down after the Qunari riot.

[Aaleel]

DP

Modifié par Aaleel, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:54 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

The only way i've been to role play Hawke to be a believable character is to make him indifferent about the political struggles around him. Role played him as just a guy trying to get by with his family, and being dragged into this big mess between Qunari and Mages.

That is the only way i've been able to do connect with Hawke. If i ever try to make him actually care about the Qunari and Mage Templar conflict, things go to **** with the characterization, as he can never do anything to help the situation, and just seems like a prominent errand boy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morroian wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Its harder and while Kirkwall is heading towards the abyss my interpretation is that it wouldn't  have necessarily been noticeable how bad things were to those living in Kirkwall. After all its not until Act 3 that you discover Meredith has asked for permission to enact the 'you know what' well in advance of Anders actions, and its really only Anders actions that create the crisis point.

The mage resistance and people being angry at Meredith and helping mages was in Act 2 (Thrashk was in act 2 as well. Rumors of Meredith being insane as well).
One would have to be pretty blind not to notice that it's getting worse and worse. 

Getting worse but not necessarily heading towards what ended up happening. Act 3 is Hawke's lightbulb moment.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Furthermore, the very moment Meredith blocks the election of a new Viscount immediately after act 2, is a huge signal. 

The templars have always been the actual power in Kirkwall. You could role play it as Hawke accepting it while things calm down after the Qunari riot.

But getting worse. No one is asking Hawke to foretell the future.
Tempalrs were de facto power, but they never dared assume power de jure and actually block an election and have Templars take over the Viscount Office. It is a huge signal.

Hawke dismissing it as "meh", makes him blind.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:59 .

[HowlHowl]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The only way i've been to role play Hawke to be a believable character is to make him indifferent about the political struggles around him. Role played him as just a guy trying to get by with his family, and being dragged into this big mess between Qunari and Mages.

That is the only way i've been able to do connect with Hawke. If i ever try to make him actually care about the Qunari and Mage Templar conflict, things go to **** with the characterization, as he can never do anything to help the situation, and just seems like a prominent errand boy.

I always role-played him as a calculating strategist whose plans are always ruined by some simpleton acting rashly.

Or a guy that really likes money. Mages are going wild? Don't care, got an expedition to get into. Qunari are going wild? Don't care, I'll kill them if they stop me from making money. Knight-Commander Meredith is going wild? Don't care, as long as her war doesn't impeded on Kirkwall's economy. But when it did...there was Hell to pay.

[Ronnel]

Hawke causes DA2 to have no race selection that's why.

[Monica83]

Okay now this is a reasonable thread and i like it..

My problem with hawke is that don't make me felt in character when i try to roleplay him..This is not a problem per se you can roleplay a your character and you can roleplay a defined one... I don't know why and i can't be very specific about that but.. I didin't liked hawke simple because the character is poor of reactivity in many ways.. Some hawke spoken line are just bland.. I noticed the conversation approach change if you pick many time a toned answer

For example: if i pick most of the time the sarcastic tone answer hawke is sarcastic in his approach with the people...

But most of the time the dialogue lines are just bland and this is what i didin't liked at all.. An example to let your understeand..

Alistar in DAO is sarcastic most time and felt more alive..
Hawke can be sarcastic too but many times felt like a bland character in his or her answer..
Now this can be matter of taste ofcourse...

But i don't fell so much love to the character of hawke.. I think also the interaction with his family are very bland... In fact i felt like they are strangers than Mother Sister and Brother....

Carver starts with a rival approach with hawke..why?..This thing isn't much explained in the game..

The error in da2 one of many in the narrative is bland..

Well for me..

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

If you need to imagine or invent actions for your character or the story to make them seem credible, that's just a sign of bad design or writing. Imagining or inventing motivations for your character is a different matter.

Ideally, the game reacts to the latter and the way the game responds to your character's motivations is essential in creating a personality and concept for that character. The former is the opposite, where you as a player must invent content to "fill the gaps" and react to the game's shortcomings.

All games have this to a degree. I won't go claiming that Origins was perfect in this area. But Dragon Age 2 was especially noticeable because according to the narrative, you spent the majority of your time doing nothing.

The last game to really trouble me in such a way was probably Oblivion.

Had the game's scope been scaled back to happen in 3-4 years, with only a matter of months happening in between each Act, then the problem would've definitely been less noticeable.

It wouldn't really require any changes to the game's actual content, merely in how the story was presented.

Now, as for blaming Hawke, I'm with KoP on this one. You cannot put protagonists like Hawke into a vacuum and examine him/her in isolation. A protagonist is as much shaped by the story as they are by the player. Because it's in the story where the character shown to develop.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 juillet 2011 - 03:38 .

[Addai]

Aaleel wrote...

This was my whole problem.  You have to fill in the first year, and both three year gaps.  Then you only actually play through what, less than a year? If I'm going to have to fill in 90% of the time I might as well write a fan fic, which I ended up doing.  That's just way too much to make the player account for. 

How did you get the motivation to write for Hawke in the first place?