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[Vicious]

Hawke was the best thing about DA2.

If he was transplanted into DA:O, it'd be GOTY material and people would love Hawke the way they love pre-made characters like Shepard and Ezio Auditore.

Sadly, DA2 is simply lacking in every way compared to DA:O. But hey, live and learn. I predict DA3 will be more like Origins, but with a preset protagonist. [since Bioware really seems to like the cinematic approach]

[FieryDove]

Vicious wrote...

Sadly, DA2 is simply lacking in every way compared to DA:O. But hey, live and learn. I predict DA3 will be more like Origins, but with a preset protagonist. [since Bioware really seems to like the cinematic approach]

I...can't believe you said that.

I really hope Bioware doesn't go that way. I just can't imagine many people wanting to pay $60 for a movie.

[alex90c]

Hawke was the best thing about DA2.

If he was transplanted into DA:O, it'd be GOTY material and people would love Hawke the way they love pre-made characters like Shepard and Ezio Auditore.

Not really, unless it was [I]just[/I} Hawke being implemented (as in, without all the cinematics, VA and dialogue wheel), and even then it would be pointless as you might as well have a customisable character if they were going to be silent. The way things are now though, chuck Hawke as the main character in Origins all you want, but couple that with VA and dialogue wheel and you're still going to alienate people who:

1. Prefer a silent protagonist
2. Don't like a preset character
3. People who dislike the VAs used
4. People who dislike the dialogue wheel
5. other stuff

I agree with your second paragraph though; I don't particularly want a preset protagonist or 2,500 cutscenes at the expense of 600,000 words of dialogue but since Bioware seems to want to Mass Effectise the Dragon Age franchise it'll probably happen anyway. I think they'd be wrong to use Hawke again though, since people are pretty divisive on their opinions of him/her unlike say, Shephard who is hailed as a badass or Ezio who is the badass assassin. Then there's Hawke who is ... uhh ... ?

[Morroian]

alex90c wrote...

Hawke was the best thing about DA2.

If he was transplanted into DA:O, it'd be GOTY material and people would love Hawke the way they love pre-made characters like Shepard and Ezio Auditore.

Not really, unless it was [I]just[/I} Hawke being implemented (as in, without all the cinematics, VA and dialogue wheel), and even then it would be pointless as you might as well have a customisable character if they were going to be silent. The way things are now though, chuck Hawke as the main character in Origins all you want, but couple that with VA and dialogue wheel and you're still going to alienate people who:

1. Prefer a silent protagonist
2. Don't like a preset character
3. People who dislike the VAs used
4. People who dislike the dialogue wheel

The majority of whom don't seem to mind those features in The Witcher 2.

[Tirfan]

^ I didn't mind those features in TW2 because I knew from the start that Geralt wasn't my character and he was written like an actual character. I hoped that Hawke would be my character, which he wasn't and he wasn't written like, you know, an actual character, but rather a blank-slate with some defining features (which means, Hawke is a bit more set in stone character than the Warden, it may not be much, but still)

The point is, if you are going with a voiced set-in-stone character, go all the way, or give us as blank-slate character as is possible within the restrictions of CRPG:s.

[csfteeeer]

Morroian wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Hawke was the best thing about DA2.

If he was transplanted into DA:O, it'd be GOTY material and people would love Hawke the way they love pre-made characters like Shepard and Ezio Auditore.

Not really, unless it was [I]just[/I} Hawke being implemented (as in, without all the cinematics, VA and dialogue wheel), and even then it would be pointless as you might as well have a customisable character if they were going to be silent. The way things are now though, chuck Hawke as the main character in Origins all you want, but couple that with VA and dialogue wheel and you're still going to alienate people who:

1. Prefer a silent protagonist
2. Don't like a preset character
3. People who dislike the VAs used
4. People who dislike the dialogue wheel

The majority of whom don't seem to mind those features in The Witcher 2.

That's Because Geralt is an already pre-made Character, not ours, he has his rules and we, as players, have to follow, we can't go ahead and approach someone saying "don't worry good man, i will help because for free because i have a good heart", no, as a Witcher doing something like that is an insult, so we can't change him, we can take certain decisions for him, but at the end of the day, he is not our character, he is Sapkowski's Character, and we can only touch the surface.

Modifié par csfteeeer, 06 juillet 2011 - 02:51 .

[Morroian]

csfteeeer wrote...

Morroian wrote...

alex90c wrote...

1. Prefer a silent protagonist
2. Don't like a preset character
3. People who dislike the VAs used
4. People who dislike the dialogue wheel

The majority of whom don't seem to mind those features in The Witcher 2.

That's Because Geralt is an already pre-made Character, not ours, he has his rules and we, as players, have to follow, we can't go ahead and approach someone saying "don't worry good man, i will help because for free because i have a good heart", no, as a Witcher doing something like that is an insult, so we can't change him, we can take certain decisions for him, but at the end of the day, he is not our character, he is Sapkowski's Character, and we can only touch the surface.

That may be although I have to say I don't understand it. But it doesn't address the wheel and silent protagonist.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

csfteeeer wrote...

That's Because Geralt is an already pre-made Character, not ours, he has his rules and we, as players, have to follow, we can't go ahead and approach someone saying "don't worry good man, i will help because for free because i have a good heart", no, as a Witcher doing something like that is an insult, so we can't change him, we can take certain decisions for him, but at the end of the day, he is not our character, he is Sapkowski's Character, and we can only touch the surface.

This is a good point - it might be that a fully realized character works, a blank slate works, but the unhappy medium doesn't. However, Shep seemed to somewhat work for me, although less than a character like Geralt or The Nameless One. What was your take on that?

[Morroian]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

This is a good point - it might be that a fully realized character works, a blank slate works, but the unhappy medium doesn't. However, Shep seemed to somewhat work for me, although less than a character like Geralt or The Nameless One. What was your take on that?

If your unhappy medium is DA2 then yes it works..........for me, so its not some universal truth.

As for Shep, he/she works less well for me than Hawke. I think its a combination of the binary personality choices, the VA which was subdued for both male and female, and in ME2 the role playing opportunities being toned down even from ME1. 

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Morroian wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

This is a good point - it might be that a fully realized character works, a blank slate works, but the unhappy medium doesn't. However, Shep seemed to somewhat work for me, although less than a character like Geralt or The Nameless One. What was your take on that?

If your unhappy medium is DA2 then yes it works..........for me, so its not some universal truth.

As for Shep, he/she works less well for me than Hawke. I think its a combination of the binary personality choices, the VA which was subdued for both male and female, and in ME2 the role playing opportunities being toned down even from ME1. 

That's interesting - Shep and Hawke seem to work for some people, but not for others. And often one will work but the other won't. Geralt seems to be the same way for people - most people like playing as him, but many don't. What was your take on the Warden? I found it fit some playthroughs (female Dwarven ex-urchin) more than others (middle-aged male human wizard.)

[Morroian]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That's interesting - Shep and Hawke seem to work for some people, but not for others. And often one will work but the other won't. Geralt seems to be the same way for people - most people like playing as him, but many don't. What was your take on the Warden? I found it fit some playthroughs (female Dwarven ex-urchin) more than others (middle-aged male human wizard.)

I like my Wardens, I've played through DAO 4 times with a couple of other unfinished play throughs, but my Warden's did not come to life for me like Hawke did. My Hawke's are more vividly realised characters to me. Its been discussed on the forum before that DAO is more of a first person role playing experience whereas DA2 is more of a 3rd person role playing experience. The third person style, where the player is like say a movie director, seems to suits me better.

[napushenko]

hawke was million times better character than boring warden, with more personality, ability, badasness, story, setting, dialogue. that said, i guess replayability of a cinematic type character is issue, but i dont care much about that fact.

[erynnar]

Tirfan wrote...

^ I didn't mind those features in TW2 because I knew from the start that Geralt wasn't my character and he was written like an actual character. I hoped that Hawke would be my character, which he wasn't and he wasn't written like, you know, an actual character, but rather a blank-slate with some defining features (which means, Hawke is a bit more set in stone character than the Warden, it may not be much, but still)

The point is, if you are going with a voiced set-in-stone character, go all the way, or give us as blank-slate character as is possible within the restrictions of CRPG:s.

This^ Geralt was never going to be a blank slate. I knew this. I also can tweak his personality. But really, Hawke was supposed to be mine. Instead she was half-assed. Make a character who is a fully formed character or a blank slate that is mine, the in the middle thing, not so much.

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

That's interesting - Shep and Hawke seem to work for some people, but not for others. And often one will work but the other won't. Geralt seems to be the same way for people - most people like playing as him, but many don't. What was your take on the Warden? I found it fit some playthroughs (female Dwarven ex-urchin) more than others (middle-aged male human wizard.)

I like my Wardens, I've played through DAO 4 times with a couple of other unfinished play throughs, but my Warden's did not come to life for me like Hawke did. My Hawke's are more vividly realised characters to me. Its been discussed on the forum before that DAO is more of a first person role playing experience whereas DA2 is more of a 3rd person role playing experience. The third person style, where the player is like say a movie director, seems to suits me better.

And I don't want to be a movie director telling the actor what to do. I want to be the actor and step into their skin and be them, like all of my Wardens, who are different people..  Hawke is Hawke, who can take direction to be aggressive, nice, or snarky. But thanks for putting it that way Mor, it makes more sense to me, your perspective on it.

[TEWR]

erynnar wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

^ I didn't mind those features in TW2 because I knew from the start that Geralt wasn't my character and he was written like an actual character. I hoped that Hawke would be my character, which he wasn't and he wasn't written like, you know, an actual character, but rather a blank-slate with some defining features (which means, Hawke is a bit more set in stone character than the Warden, it may not be much, but still)

The point is, if you are going with a voiced set-in-stone character, go all the way, or give us as blank-slate character as is possible within the restrictions of CRPG:s.

This^ Geralt was never going to be a blank slate. I knew this. I also can tweak his personality. But really, Hawke was supposed to be mine. Instead she was half-assed. Make a character who is a fully formed character or a blank slate that is mine, the in the middle thing, not so much.

If I'm reading your post correctly, then I have to disagree with you. If not, then more the fool am I.


I think you can flesh out a voiced character from scratch. Bioware just..... failed at it for DA2.

[erynnar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

^ I didn't mind those features in TW2 because I knew from the start that Geralt wasn't my character and he was written like an actual character. I hoped that Hawke would be my character, which he wasn't and he wasn't written like, you know, an actual character, but rather a blank-slate with some defining features (which means, Hawke is a bit more set in stone character than the Warden, it may not be much, but still)

The point is, if you are going with a voiced set-in-stone character, go all the way, or give us as blank-slate character as is possible within the restrictions of CRPG:s.

This^ Geralt was never going to be a blank slate. I knew this. I also can tweak his personality. But really, Hawke was supposed to be mine. Instead she was half-assed. Make a character who is a fully formed character or a blank slate that is mine, the in the middle thing, not so much.

If I'm reading your post correctly, then I have to disagree with you. If not, then more the fool am I.


I think you can flesh out a voiced character from scratch. Bioware just..... failed at it for DA2.

ROFL! You have never been a fool Eth. Hmmm, I don't know if you can, but if anyone can make it possible, I think BioWar can. If that makes sense. :lol:

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

It's not about voiced character/silent character.

Ery is just talking about a Geralt/Hawke thing. Geralt is a fully formed character with his own problems, his strengths and weaknesses. Hawke is semi formed, yet not fully. To a lot of people, this means he lacks the depth of a fully formed character, but also lacks the freedom of a blank slate.

Shepard is actually in a similar position, but gets away with it because's (s)he's cooler.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 07 juillet 2011 - 12:57 .

[DRTJR]

I liked the Warden More than Hawke, I also like Hawke more than Shepard. I like the VA of both Male and Female Hawke, what bothered me was the dialogue wheel, the lack of persuasion, the handling of the Qunari retcon, and the inability to play as an Elf.

[erynnar]

mrcrusty wrote...

It's not about voiced character/silent character.

Ery is just talking about a Geralt/Hawke thing. Geralt is a fully formed character with his own problems, his strengths and weaknesses. Hawke is semi formed, yet not fully. To a lot of people, this means he lacks the depth of a fully formed character, but also lacks the freedom of a blank slate.

Shepard is actually in a similar position, but gets away with it because's (s)he's cooler.

Yeah, Shep gets away with it by being an epic badass. Where as Hawke is ineffectual, and boring. Hell, her companions like the dog better, and I don't blame them. I don't even think I could write fanfic and make Hawke better, not unless I made it so that she actually was able to accomplish things (like saving her <spoiler>, stopping <spoiler>, etc.).

[csfteeeer]

DRTJR wrote...

I liked the Warden More than Hawke, I also like Hawke more than Shepard. I like the VA of both Male and Female Hawke, what bothered me was the dialogue wheel, the lack of persuasion, the handling of the Qunari retcon, and the inability to play as an Elf.

i know it's an opinion.

but..... That's Blasphemous!!!!!!

Modifié par csfteeeer, 07 juillet 2011 - 01:09 .

[TEWR]

mrcrusty wrote...

It's not about voiced character/silent character.

Ery is just talking about a Geralt/Hawke thing. Geralt is a fully formed character with his own problems, his strengths and weaknesses. Hawke is semi formed, yet not fully. To a lot of people, this means he lacks the depth of a fully formed character, but also lacks the freedom of a blank slate.

Shepard is actually in a similar position, but gets away with it because's (s)he's cooler.

Ah.


This is what happens when your computer lags for The Witcher 2 and you don't know much about Geralt of Rivia aside from his appearance and that to many people he's a badass  


....which makes me sad




But I definitely think Bioware could've make Hawke have depth whilst still retaining freedom. I can only hope they make it so for DA3.

[csfteeeer]

mrcrusty wrote...

It's not about voiced character/silent character.

Ery is just talking about a Geralt/Hawke thing. Geralt is a fully formed character with his own problems, his strengths and weaknesses. Hawke is semi formed, yet not fully. To a lot of people, this means he lacks the depth of a fully formed character, but also lacks the freedom of a blank slate.

Shepard is actually in a similar position, but gets away with it because's (s)he's cooler.

Yep.

Shepard >>>>> Hawke

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

erynnar wrote...

Yeah, Shep gets away with it by being an epic badass. Where as Hawke is ineffectual, and boring. Hell, her
companions like the dog better, and I don't blame them. I don't even think I could write fanfic and make Hawke better, not unless I made it so that she actually was able to accomplish things (like saving her <spoiler>, stopping <spoiler>, etc.).

Funnily enough, for me, what makes Hawke ineffectual and boring is that for most of the game's timeline, (s)he apparently takes one long nap.

The stuff you're mentioning is the plot railroading you and I don't mind that too much, except in how it was presented.

"Choose, Champion!"

"I don't want to get involved, I just want to keep my friends safe so we can all leave this hellhole. So, I won't choose."

"BUT THOU MUST!"

*thinks it over seriously*

"I believe that x would be best for Kirkwall in both the short term and the long term, therefore, I choose x."

"Okay, now do this, exactly the same as if you chose y."

"But I chos-"

"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CHOSE!"

That is understandably annoying.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 07 juillet 2011 - 01:13 .

[Sylvianus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I dislike Hawke, because he was projected in a world I found dull, in a story I thought was worse, with a role that I thought was useless and would not make much sense unless I play an irresponsible playboy.

I could not change any of that in the game.

agreed.

Besides,Hawk, is selfish it is not me. He is interested only about money all his life, it's not me. I... DON'T... CARE about money. And his family. For years he does nothing and he looks like a sheep while the caravan moves on, and things get worse. Again it will be never  me. Seriously, there should have been a way that allows the political will, the concern of the public interest ..

The end how it is conducted leads to a situation where Hawke again is unable to properly handle a situation. This failure condemns him as a heroes. Not because he has failed from this moment, but for everything that led to this failure that he could have resolved since a long time, as the champion of Kirkwall.

The limitation of all that,  detaches  Hawk itself from the player. the few options and choice, that we have, deseperate, lead to love less, and less, and less and less  Hawke. " It's not me , it's a fool " becoming stronger  in our mind as we move forward.

And then the end, Hawk fled Kirkwall, and abandoned his city. Again, that is not me. Never I give up my city in the chaos. Then, he disappears *, pouf  *

To sum um, The lack of choice, the railroad in a way that we dislike, the no win situation at the end, the incomprehensible years where Hawk does nothing, all make we want , we do not want to compromise anymore  with him and his failure. Why, his failure, because, no choice for us, passivity for him and helplessness for both.

A new hero, clean, would be nice.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 juillet 2011 - 01:23 .

[ADelusiveMan]

Only problem I have with DA2, and the Dragon Age series as a whole, is that it completely drops the character you made in DAO for Hawke.