281 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Snap judgement? We're not talking about Shepard showing up with Helena Blake, or Rana Thanoptis, or Shiala. It's Cerberus. I suppose you think Cerberus "isn't that bad"? The first game went out of its way to paint Cerberus as The Really Really Bad Guys, and Ashley had first-hand experience with that. Whatever Renegade stuff Shepard may or may not have done in ME1, that's still a far cry from joining a human supremacist group known for brutal assassinations of Alliance personnel and unconscionable scientific experiments on living sapient subjects. There is no room for interpretation here—Shepard has gone over to the dark side. And he might not even know it. Someone needs to knock some sense into him.

And does Ash ever ask Shepard why he or she is working for Cerberus?  Keeping in mind that Shepard saw the exact same things that Ash saw, even led the attacks on the Cerberus bases?  Or does she immediately go off calling Shepard a traitor?

If the situation was reversed, and in ME2 Shepard was working for the Alliance and I saw the Ash or Kaidan (particularly the Virmire NON-Survivor) working fro Cerberus, you can bet I'd have some questions to ask.  And I'd want answers.

For that matter, does Shepard have any dialogue options that say "I'm not happy about this situation either, but I have no other options"?

Heck, can Shepard even pass on the information gained so far?  Like say, the tech to protect people from seeker swarms?  Mighta made a nice peace offering, no?

Let's face it, it's an artificial conflict done with artificial dialogue to drum up some artificial drama.

[Raizo]

iakus wrote...

Snap judgement? We're not talking about Shepard showing up with Helena Blake, or Rana Thanoptis, or Shiala. It's Cerberus. I suppose you think Cerberus "isn't that bad"? The first game went out of its way to paint Cerberus as The Really Really Bad Guys, and Ashley had first-hand experience with that. Whatever Renegade stuff Shepard may or may not have done in ME1, that's still a far cry from joining a human supremacist group known for brutal assassinations of Alliance personnel and unconscionable scientific experiments on living sapient subjects. There is no room for interpretation here—Shepard has gone over to the dark side. And he might not even know it. Someone needs to knock some sense into him.

And does Ash ever ask Shepard why he or she is working for Cerberus?  Keeping in mind that Shepard saw the exact same things that Ash saw, even led the attacks on the Cerberus bases?  Or does she immediately go off calling Shepard a traitor?

If the situation was reversed, and in ME2 Shepard was working for the Alliance and I saw the Ash or Kaidan (particularly the Virmire NON-Survivor) working fro Cerberus, you can bet I'd have some questions to ask.  And I'd want answers.

For that matter, does Shepard have any dialogue options that say "I'm not happy about this situation either, but I have no other options"?

Heck, can Shepard even pass on the information gained so far?  Like say, the tech to protect people from seeker swarms?  Mighta made a nice peace offering, no?

Let's face it, it's an artificial conflict done with artificial dialogue to drum up some artificial drama.

The very first time I played ME2 and did the mission on Horizon I had Garrus and Grunt with me. It's insulting enough that Ashley doesn't even ask why Shepard is working for Cerebus but one of the many things that really bugs me about that scene is that you can take Mordin, Garrus and Grunt down to Horizon with you and she never stops to ask why Aliens  ( such as Garrus and Grunt in my case ) would work for an organisation like Cerebus, at the very least anybody would look at the situation and realise that somthing does not add up, that's there's more going on than meets the eye. It's especially insulting when you take Garrus with you, Garrus who has worked with Ashley before. I supose I should be thankful that Ashley and Garrus do at least acknowledge one another. Then there is the rant that Cerebus could still be behind the abductions of the human colony members. She saw first hand that Giant bug like creatures were responisble for incapacitating everyone and taking them away ( Ash was paralysed but she  still saw everything ) and yet she still blames Cerebus for what happened Horizon.

It is a poorly written scene that should have lasted much, much longer. Ashley behaves like  emotional predjudiced fool who could not see facts even if they bit her on the ass and Shepards dialogue is probably some of the most idioctic things ever written/spoken and are complately in apropriate when you concider that for many of us this was a reunion with not only one of his most trusted former teamate's but also his LI. Sadly I can forgive Shepard for his dumb-ass-ness in the Horizon scene since for the most part he iis well written character. Sadly though Horizon becomes one more reason why Ashley will never have what it takes to be anything but a grunt, it just becomes one more example of her being too emotional, irrational, quick to jump to wrong conclusions and incapable of thinking things through properly.

[Iakus]

Raizo wrote...

The very first time I played ME2 and did the mission on Horizon I had Garrus and Grunt with me. It's insulting enough that Ashley doesn't even ask why Shepard is working for Cerebus but one of the many things that really bugs me about that scene is that you can take Mordin, Garrus and Grunt down to Horizon with you and she never stops to ask why Aliens  ( such as Garrus and Grunt in my case ) would work for an organisation like Cerebus, at the very least anybody would look at the situation and realise that somthing does not add up, that's there's more going on than meets the eye. It's especially insulting when you take Garrus with you, Garrus who has worked with Ashley before. I supose I should be thankful that Ashley and Garrus do at least acknowledge one another. Then there is the rant that Cerebus could still be behind the abductions of the human colony members. She saw first hand that Giant bug like creatures were responisble for incapacitating everyone and taking them away ( Ash was paralysed but she  still saw everything ) and yet she still blames Cerebus for what happened Horizon.

My first playthrough I had Garrus and Mordin with me.  Ash noted Garrus' presence with "Garrus too?"

Garrus too?

Garrus is working for Cerberus too?

Garrus.  A.  Turian.  Is.  Working.  For.  Cerberus.  Too?



That doesn't strike anyone as strange?  That doesn't strike Ash or Kaidan as strange?

[Siansonea]

Could Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Should Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Was Shepard acting VERY STRANGE. Most definitely.

Should Ashley be blamed entirely for the Writing Fail of Horizon? Absolutely NOT. She shouldn't even be blamed for MOST of it. Shepard's dialog is idiotic. One might think Shepard had a Cerberus control chip in his head or something. Hmmmm. Say, Miranda, remember when we were talking earlier...

[Abispa]

Siansonea II wrote...

Could Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Should Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Was Shepard acting VERY STRANGE. Most definitely.

Should Ashley be blamed entirely for the Writing Fail of Horizon? Absolutely NOT. She shouldn't even be blamed for MOST of it. Shepard's dialog is idiotic. One might think Shepard had a Cerberus control chip in his head or something. Hmmmm. Say, Miranda, remember when we were talking earlier...

I am SO hoping that Miranda betrays Shepard in ME3, either through desception or because TIM activates the control chip he put hin HER skull. Not because I hate Miranda, but because I dig that sort of thing in sci-fi.

I honestly blame the "I can't believe Ashley betrayed me!" complaints from fans to be on the fact that fans can't have sex with her in ME2. I don't know how many reviews and posts that say it's "lame" for Shepard to be staring at a photo when s/he SHOULD be taking part in the many sex scenes provided. Fidelity isn't as important to a lot of ME fans as instant gratification it seems.

Personally, I think the Ashley abstainance is for the best. Can you imagine if Ashley COULD sleep with Shepard in ME2? "Uh, Shepard, why are we keeping our clothes on this time? Oh... my... God... You mean they didn't fix EVERYTHING!?"

[Repearized Miranda]

Siansonea II wrote...

Could Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Should Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Was Shepard acting VERY STRANGE. Most definitely.

Should Ashley be blamed entirely for the Writing Fail of Horizon? Absolutely NOT. She shouldn't even be blamed for MOST of it. Shepard's dialog is idiotic. One might think Shepard had a Cerberus control chip in his head or something. Hmmmm. Say, Miranda, remember when we were talking earlier...

Everybody is to blame for that disaster because the characters ARE the writing. They are two separate things contrary to popular belief.

Jack spouting profanities isn't separated from the writer who wrote them for her character to spout. It's baffles me when this is brought up when bad things happen. What about when good things happen?

Morinth's a killer, she wouldn't let Samara live. It may be "out-of-character," but the writing + character can not be separated.

This is why you also hear: "Characters go with the stroke of the pen."

Ashley was a witch on Horizon while Shepard was "not-all-there" either, but they might be bosom buddies next game. (no offense or punmanship meant).

If anything, the "bad writing" excuse is a cop-out as is trying to use it for defense - especially since everybidy knows it. However, it was bad in the sense that this was where the writers intended to go because just listen to the negative reactions; yet, the scene was positive because of the emotional impact. The writers (and actors) did their damn jobs! I'd rather Ashley spout than say nothing to me at all. This is clearly the reaction they wanted.

I agree it should've been fleshed out more, but if they wanted a "rational" argument, we would've gotten one.

[knightnblu]

Siansonea II wrote...

Could Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Should Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Was Shepard acting VERY STRANGE. Most definitely.

Should Ashley be blamed entirely for the Writing Fail of Horizon? Absolutely NOT. She shouldn't even be blamed for MOST of it. Shepard's dialog is idiotic. One might think Shepard had a Cerberus control chip in his head or something. Hmmmm. Say, Miranda, remember when we were talking earlier...

Now THAT, I can agree with 120%!

However, as another poster has pointed out, the characters are who they are written to be. I don't like it and it seems that a lot of people don't like it, but that is who the writers made them for good or ill. I hated the words that were forced into my mouth preventing me from salvaging the situation. However, I also believe that my reaction is justified based upon my understanding of the facts.

Other people feel differently and that is just as valid and I have no qualms with it whatsoever. Never the less, the situation remains what it is and I will continue my gameplay accordingly.

[Siansonea]

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Could Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Should Ashley have asked Shepard more questions? Sure.

Was Shepard acting VERY STRANGE. Most definitely.

Should Ashley be blamed entirely for the Writing Fail of Horizon? Absolutely NOT. She shouldn't even be blamed for MOST of it. Shepard's dialog is idiotic. One might think Shepard had a Cerberus control chip in his head or something. Hmmmm. Say, Miranda, remember when we were talking earlier...

Everybody is to blame for that disaster because the characters ARE the writing. They are two separate things contrary to popular belief.

Jack spouting profanities isn't separated from the writer who wrote them for her character to spout. It's baffles me when this is brought up when bad things happen. What about when good things happen?

Morinth's a killer, she wouldn't let Samara live. It may be "out-of-character," but the writing + character can not be separated.

This is why you also hear: "Characters go with the stroke of the pen."

Ashley was a witch on Horizon while Shepard was "not-all-there" either, but they might be bosom buddies next game. (no offense or punmanship meant).

If anything, the "bad writing" excuse is a cop-out as is trying to use it for defense - especially since everybidy knows it. However, it was bad in the sense that this was where the writers intended to go because just listen to the negative reactions; yet, the scene was positive because of the emotional impact. The writers (and actors) did their damn jobs! I'd rather Ashley spout than say nothing to me at all. This is clearly the reaction they wanted.

I agree it should've been fleshed out more, but if they wanted a "rational" argument, we would've gotten one.

Well, it's bad writing because the characterization of Shepard has been cut off to further the plot. Realistically, Shepard would totally understand Ashley's point of view, and would make all sorts of obvious points to assuage her extreme horror of seeing Shepard in the company of Cerberus. Shepard should not have been so casual. "Hey Ash, it's been too long, how've you been?" is just the stupidest thing Shepard could say in that moment. And Ash thinks so too. Shepard should have agreed with everything Ashley said, and offered up much better explanations for what was happening, and should have asked her to corroborate everything with Tali and Captain Anderson. Then later, after Ashley's done some research on her own, should Shepard extend an invitation to join his team, through proper channels. Instead of "Hey, I know you're a loyal Alliance soldier on a mission and all, but how about breaking your oath to the Alliance and working for Cerberus, Ash? For old time's sake?"

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:05 .

[knightnblu]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...

[quote]knightnblu wrote...

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...

[/quote]

Snap judgement? We're not talking about Shepard showing up with Helena Blake, or Rana Thanoptis, or Shiala. It's Cerberus. I suppose you think Cerberus "isn't that bad"? The first game went out of its way to paint Cerberus as The Really Really Bad Guys, and Ashley had first-hand experience with that. Whatever Renegade stuff Shepard may or may not have done in ME1, that's still a far cry from joining a human supremacist group known for brutal assassinations of Alliance personnel and unconscionable scientific experiments on living sapient subjects. There is no room for interpretation here—Shepard has gone over to the dark side. And he might not even know it. Someone needs to knock some sense into him.

[/quote]


 
So given that the Council has denied him any assistance regarding the disappearance of human colonies because it is an internal matter for humanity, and given the Alliance's desire to debrief Shepard over a period of six months regarding his AWOL status and work for the terrorist organization Cerberus, provided that he is cooperative (according to Shadow Broker dossier) what should Shepard have done?
 
If Admiral Hackett and Councilor Anderson had not been firmly in Shepard's corner and fighting for him, he would have been arrested and interrogated or at the very least on the run from the Council as a rogue Spectre and from the Alliance as a suspected traitor. Further, Shepard did not march into Cerberus HQ and ask for an application for membership. Cerberus took his dead body, spent 4 billion credits to resurrect it, and then pressed him into service.
 
Did Shepard have a choice? Sure, he could have walked and left the colonists to their grisly fate and hid out on Omega sipping...whatever that blue stuff on Omega is, but he stayed true to form and did what he had to do in order save the innocent. So when you say "Someone needs to knock some sense into him," what do you think should have happened? I would really like to know.

[Repearized Miranda]

Siansonea II wrote...

That is what many call "plot-driven storylines." However, you must consider, too, that we (Shepard) are not given time to sit down with the VS. We just get a letter (*cues "Blue's Clues Mail" theme*) I proposed that perhaps we will have time to "properly" apologize to the VS because of our actions as well. However, I will not separate the characters from the writing as if I don't know better because I do.

Miranda's pov regarding TIM and Cerberus is another example. However, I still wouldn't attempt to separate her character's actions from the story since she's written as such.

Her pov can be summed up in three sentences:

TIM & Cerberus aren't wrong!
 ^ can't be wrong!
^ are wrong!

Some say this is bad writing because of what I omitted.

Now, once I plug in the missing parts.

Cerberus isn't wrong (Horizion)
Cerberus can't be wrong (Collector Homeworld)
Cerberus is wrong (SM: Collector Base)

Was this rushed? I wouldn't doubt it; however, how many just heard her dialogue ignoring all the events that surrounded it? (a la Ashley) Yet, who would say that she was wrong for saying "stuff it!" to TIM? Also, one has to consider her demeanor and tone when speaking to him.

Both Miranda and Ashley walked off with good reason. Their tones vastly differed though. That's why most were less upset that Miranda left (if they were) than when Ashley did. Both personalities were displayed through appropriate dialogue. 

About breaking one's oath. As I said earlier, sometimes it takes "working with the enemy" to get things done - especially if your "friends" (Alliance/Council) won't! It's not a matter of betraying anybody. If Shepard didn't work with Cerberus, everyone would be non-existent from ME2 on! Ashley'd rather die being loyal then doing somethng about it just to "stick to her guns"? Let's put Ashley is Shep's place and see if she'd say that! She still might have reservations, but it's all good now that Cerberus has turned on us - proving her right. (There's a cookie for you, babe, but there's still a war going on)

However, none of this is bad writing despite this. I'm glad Ashley yelled at me. No use keeping it bottled up and it's also good that I said what I had to instead of bottling it - even if she didn't listen initially. How is it bad writing if it's evokes strong emotion? Would you rather it be like:

Salarian: "I don't wanna hurt you!"
Shepard: (punches him) "Hurt me? I hardly felt a thing!"

The writers certainly didn't want this!

[knightnblu]

You know, I can't really see myself apologizing to anybody. Why should I apologize to Ashley? What in the name of all that is holy did I do to merit an apology? Hey Ash, I just wanted to say that I am very sorry for saving your ass on Horizon? Or Ash, we need to talk. I just wanted to apologize for saving innocent life and pissing you off. The way I see it, I am the aggrieved party not Ashley.

I didn't have a choice who I had to work for because all my other friends deep sixed me. Was Cerberus behind that? I would bet my bottom dollar on it. That's one the reasons I am looking to cap TIM in ME3. He's a liar, manipulator, and instigator and he has no problems putting other people in danger to get his way. So I ask again, what did I do to merit an apology to Ahsley?

[Repearized Miranda]

knightnblu wrote...

You know, I can't really see myself apologizing to anybody. Why should I apologize to Ashley? What in the name of all that is holy did I do to merit an apology? Hey Ash, I just wanted to say that I am very sorry for saving your ass on Horizon? Or Ash, we need to talk. I just wanted to apologize for saving innocent life and pissing you off. The way I see it, I am the aggrieved party not Ashley.

I didn't have a choice who I had to work for because all my other friends deep sixed me. Was Cerberus behind that? I would bet my bottom dollar on it. That's one the reasons I am looking to cap TIM in ME3. He's a liar, manipulator, and instigator and he has no problems putting other people in danger to get his way. So I ask again, what did I do to merit an apology to Ahsley?

You, I nor any other player has to, but Ash (or Kaidan) didn't have to either. Maybe I should have said: "Give us the option to." I'm not completely over her tirade either, for me, I shouldn't begrudge Ashley for it. I'll make it hard for her to score points, but that's as far as I'm going. Again, if it were me, I'd apologize for how I said things - not what I said.

And yeah, he's on my bucket (of ****) list, too; however, he's small potatoes compared to those oh-so-meaty Reapers!

[Edrick1976]

KainrycKarr wrote...

No, noone ever felt that away, ever, and this topic was never, ever brought up before.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

ROFLMAO OMG Sarcasem FTW lol

[Varus Praetor]

knightnblu wrote...

V-rex - I respect your opinion, but I am afraid that I will have to concur with another poster who said that a fictional character is who the writer makes them to be, not who I want them to be or imagine them to be. Regardless of how Ashley is written, she is who the writer says she is and my wanting it to be different does not make it so.

For some unknown reason, the writer made Ash have a psychotic break on Horizon. Not my choice, but it is what it is. I really liked Ashley's character in ME. I like strong, independent women, but I also detest head games. In real life, the quickest way to get rid of me is to start playing head games. Why should a PC game be any different? Some people don't see it that way and I have no problem with their perception. If it works for them, then fine.

I look at it this way, Miranda stood by me when it counted and Ashley did not. Miranda, who deeply believes in a human positive agenda and in Cerberus, left the organization she has deep ties with in order to stand by Shepard. That means something because there will be consequences for that choice. Because Miranda is now freelance, I highly doubt that Cerberus will continue its protection of her sister and that had to have crossed her mind when she pulled the plug on TIM. Is Miranda the friendliest or most open woman in the Mass Effect universe? Not hardly, but loyalty to Shepard has to count for something.

In my opinion, Miranda was true to Shepard while Ashley, who should have known him best, was not. A tepid apology sent by email does not change that. Parroting the words of poets does not change that either. Ashley is not some puppet of Cyrano de Bergerac performing a space love opera, she is supposed to be a soldier who is independent, strong, and smart. On Horizon, she was independent and strong, but she left smart in her other armor apparently. Again, Ashley is a hell of a fighter and is probably a great Specter and Alliance Officer, but as a friend and a lover she leaves a lot to be desired the way I see it.

Very well said.

[Rulid]

Varus Praetor wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

V-rex - I respect your opinion, but I am afraid that I will have to concur with another poster who said that a fictional character is who the writer makes them to be, not who I want them to be or imagine them to be. Regardless of how Ashley is written, she is who the writer says she is and my wanting it to be different does not make it so.

For some unknown reason, the writer made Ash have a psychotic break on Horizon. Not my choice, but it is what it is. I really liked Ashley's character in ME. I like strong, independent women, but I also detest head games. In real life, the quickest way to get rid of me is to start playing head games. Why should a PC game be any different? Some people don't see it that way and I have no problem with their perception. If it works for them, then fine.

I look at it this way, Miranda stood by me when it counted and Ashley did not. Miranda, who deeply believes in a human positive agenda and in Cerberus, left the organization she has deep ties with in order to stand by Shepard. That means something because there will be consequences for that choice. Because Miranda is now freelance, I highly doubt that Cerberus will continue its protection of her sister and that had to have crossed her mind when she pulled the plug on TIM. Is Miranda the friendliest or most open woman in the Mass Effect universe? Not hardly, but loyalty to Shepard has to count for something.

In my opinion, Miranda was true to Shepard while Ashley, who should have known him best, was not. A tepid apology sent by email does not change that. Parroting the words of poets does not change that either. Ashley is not some puppet of Cyrano de Bergerac performing a space love opera, she is supposed to be a soldier who is independent, strong, and smart. On Horizon, she was independent and strong, but she left smart in her other armor apparently. Again, Ashley is a hell of a fighter and is probably a great Specter and Alliance Officer, but as a friend and a lover she leaves a lot to be desired the way I see it.

Very well said.

Indeed.
I like knightblu's posts. They're usually very well thought out.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

You know, I can't really see myself apologizing to anybody. Why should I apologize to Ashley? What in the name of all that is holy did I do to merit an apology? Hey Ash, I just wanted to say that I am very sorry for saving your ass on Horizon? Or Ash, we need to talk. I just wanted to apologize for saving innocent life and pissing you off. The way I see it, I am the aggrieved party not Ashley.

I didn't have a choice who I had to work for because all my other friends deep sixed me. Was Cerberus behind that? I would bet my bottom dollar on it. That's one the reasons I am looking to cap TIM in ME3. He's a liar, manipulator, and instigator and he has no problems putting other people in danger to get his way. So I ask again, what did I do to merit an apology to Ahsley?

This is largely what I think too.  I do believe Horizon needs to be dealt with in some fashion.  Harsh words were spoken, and there's regrettable dialogue on both sides.  But I'd rather do it without either side needing to apologize.

The writers, however, are another story... They chose that dialogue for that situation, after all.

[ubermensch007]

You know what Ashley's reaction to seeing Shepard on Horizon reminds me of? Bill's reaction to finding The Bride alive and well,  pregnant and about to get married: in Kill Bill Volume 1 As we learn in Kill Bill Volume Two, he had thought that she was murdered .He grieved for her and sought to avenge her death.When he found her a few years later; Alive and Well, PREGNANT in a church about to get Married.He -- OVER-REACTED As he put it. And it was understandable so, though I don't condone his treatment of her.Beating up a pregnant lady, shooting her in the head and having her used as a prostiute while she is in acoma Is going a tad bit overboard  imho <_<

Now lets look at Ash, she went through many emotions at hyper speed.She heard the rumors, but as President  Ronald Regan put it, ""Believe have of what you see and none of what you hear." Shecan hardly believe her eyes.She sees her Skipper.She's overjoyed, but after that she begans to wonder that if he has been alive all this time, why didn't he let her know? That question she internally asks herself makes her angry. Than it is clear to see from how she looks at who he's with and takes a few steps back from them.That she is now also kind of jealous.She has a "So this is your knew cliqe?" attitude towards him at that point...

Commander Shepard recognizes that this is how she's feeling, so he ask her to join up with him, so that she will feel included.But she declines and then they part ways for now.I have no idea how so many here seem to dislike the VS Horizon Reunion: Its one of my favorite moments of the game.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 06 juillet 2011 - 07:40 .

[ultimatekotorfan]

I can somewhat understand Ashley's side. Think about it.

She hasn't seen you in two years.

She's an alliance loyalist.

If you worked your romance right with her in ME1 she's changed her stance on aliens.

Cerberus pretty much ****ed up each of those. The Collectors killed you though.

[ubermensch007]

Though I see Ashley's side of that encounter: I find myself more partial to Shepard's perspective... For this reason.For me as I said in my first post in this thread, what threatens to make me lose respect for Ashley, is not what happened on Horizon, but rather if my worse fears about her turn out to be true.knightblu has some very interesting interpretations of Ashley's motivations and psychology...



[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
 [/quote]

Yeah,so not reading all that. So does "To hell with objectivity, disagree and you're dead to me" sum it up? If only Ashley was an asari, she couldhave read Shepard's mind and known for sure he was on the up and up. Oh
wait, that would have been some kind of external validation. She's justsupposed to trust "you" because your face is on the box. She's supposedto see the giant Protagonist label on your uniform and just agree with everything you say à la Tali/Garrus/Wrex.

I'm so glad I don't
fantasize that "I" am Shepard, so I can actually judge the characters ontheir own merits and not based on how much they "hassle" the player character.[/quote


[quote]knightnblu wrote...

You know for someone who advocates for objectivity, you sure seem to disregard a lot of facts. First off, you
won't even read my entire post ("Yeah, so not reading all that.") So howdo you even know what my points are or what their basis in fact is? Secondly, Ashley's grandfather, General Williams, got ran over by the Alliance on scant few facts and loads of rumors and innuendo regarding his surrender at Shan Xi and Ashley believes that is just the most awfuland terrible thing. In fact, she is so traumatized by what happened to her grandfather that she seeks to martyr herself for him on Vrmire to restore her family's honor. Yet, she turns around and does exactly the
same thing that she abhors about her grandfather's shame to the man thatshe professes to have loved. This is why I say that she had a psychoticbreak on Horizon.
 
Ashley never even asks for an explanation, she just makes a snap judgment based on nothing more than rumors and innuendo and then point blank calls Shepard a traitor. Maybe you recall her saying, "You betrayed the Alliance, Anderson,...you betrayed me." Words mean things, but that isn't all. Do you remember how she said that? I do. There was a touch of venom that she added to those words or did you miss the vocal inflections and facial expressions? Seems to me that is a pretty good approximation of what happened to General Williams, who was also branded a traitor by the people that he trusted.
 
An unknown and superior military force jumps in and wipes out all of the orbital defenses and then drops rocks on anything that moves until the only choice left was either surrender or starvation. What other choice did William's grandfather have? He fought as best as he knew how, but itjust wasn't good enough and his men and civilians were dying. Starved and with no hope for relief, he surrendered. As a result, he was chastised and betrayed by the service that he loved.
 
Unfortunately, Ashley didn't remember that. The only thing missing from her reaction on Horizon would have been taking Shepard into custody and returning himto the Citadel in chains. Who knows, maybe Ash will be holding his
leash when they try him as a traitor back on Earth. That would put the final touch on this poignant re-enactment of her grandfather's disgrace that she seems hell bent to re-live with Shepard cast in the role of hergrandfather.
 
I would have thought that Ashley would have been abit more open minded. That she would be smart enough not to do to Shepard what the Alliance did to her family, but I was wrong. Enlighten me, how is all of this Shepard's fault? You essentially seem to blame him for his negative reaction, but never seem to manage a coherent
explanation as to why. You just delve into histrionics.
 
You point the finger at me and accuse me of being narrow minded, not introspective enough, and not intellectual enough to understand poor Ashley's motivations, but you never seem to grasp the fact that it isn't Shepard's fault. Shepard is the victim, not the accuser. But I doubt that you will even read more than a few sentences of this reply. I fullyexpect another, "Yeah, so not reading all that" followed by the text of what you have used at least two posts to say.[/quote]

For my part: It has been said that,"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." Engineer Kenneth Donnely and Gabriela "Gabby" Daniels stood up for me in my absense.And payed a price for it.They lost respect for yhe Alliance and in their eyes, the Alliance lost credibility. Seeing as how Ashley has been promoted by said organization.I get the impression she wasn't exactly rocking the boat at Alliance HQ.

What I hope is not true is this.I believe that Ashley really does love Shepard. The problem is, I'm starting to sway toward the belief, that she may love her career even more ...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 06 juillet 2011 - 11:23 .

[Made Nightwing]

I don't think Ashley loves her Alliance career more than Shepard. I think that Ken rushed into a hasty decision without thinking it through. This led him to work with the morally ambiguous Cerberus in order to do ANYTHING to help. At a low level position this was ALL he could do.

Ashley however, was in a high enough position that she could do some good, so she stuck to her guns and went back to finishing off the Geth and doing high level missions for Anderson.

[Meshaber]

No problem with what happened, somewhat lacking in performance.

[ubermensch007]

elektrego wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

What I hope is not true is this.I believe that Ashley really does love Shepard. The problem is, I'm starting to sway toward the belief, that she may love her career even more ...

Well, if you really look at Ashley and who she is you should see this right away. The Alliance, through her family, is one of the strongest defining factors of her life. She has known Shepard for only a brief time, before s/he died, even the time between the death and Horizon is  longer than that.
Most of us like to think that love is powerful and can conquer all, but then life catches up and the blindfold comes off...
Again the Alliance practically defined her whole life, so that it would take much more than Shepard coming along, under obscure circumstances, too and snap with the fingers, for Ashley to join him right then and there. To think differently is frankly quite naive.
And, again, this is why I would lose respect for Ashley if she hadn't reacted like she did!

There's a great quote from The Replacements that I identify with a great deal.

Shane Falco: "Hey coach, can I ask you a question?

Jimmy McGinty: "Yeah, shoot."

Shane Falco: "Why me?"

Jimmy McGinty: "I look at you and I see two men: the man you are, and the man you ought
to be. Someday those two will meet. Should make for a hell of a football
player. 


Now as it pertains to this thread's question...

Subject: Hey there.



Shepard-



I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. When I lost you two years ago, it tore me up. I prayed for you every day. I read a lot of Tennyson, thinking about you, just like I did when my dad passed. And then you came back, and it was like my prayers were answered. But I'm not who I was then, and neither are you.



I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.



I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.



Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time.



--Ash



Death closes all: but something ere the end

Some work of noble note, may yet be done,

Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.

This well written letter from Ash calmed me down a considerable deal and made wish to see her again as soon as possible But there is that one sentence that stood out the most, which I put in bold italics."I'm not who I was then" For months now I have wondered what she means by this, I even speak of it in my Fanfic -- Commander Shepard's Log: 2185. Now in part thanks to you I have a new interpreation of it. Ash is no longer the same woman I fell for.The Ash I knew did not put her career first.When the Council and Alliance put a boot on the Normandy SR-1, Ash was the one who cheered me up and had no hestitation in deciding to do something that would get her court martialed and thrown in prison (possibly) for life! We were 'partners in crime' defying the chain of command.She did what she did back then b/c it was the right thing to do.Stopping Saren took presidense above anything else.

But in this letter, she tells me that she can't go with me.Why the hell not! I see so much that is good and beautiful in her.But in some ways she seems to still be on the fence with certain things and I feel as though one of us is going to have to give the other an Ultimatum of some sort.In order to come to a resolution...Because contrary to what she wrote in her letter about me.I Am The Same Person.I Have Not Changed...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 08 juillet 2011 - 06:55 .

[knightnblu]

"But in this letter, she tells me that she can't go with me.Why the hell not! I see so much that is good and beautiful in her.But in some ways she seems to still be on the fence with certain things and I feel as though one of us is going to have to give the other an Ultimatum of some sort.In order to come to a resolution...Because contrary to what she wrote in her letter about me.I Am The Same Person.I Have Not Changed..."

And that has been my position since the release of ME2. Two years have passed and she got over the dead man she loved. I get it. I would never have expected her to pine for Shepard 'till she died of old age. But for Shep, it hasn't been two years at all. He remembers being spaced and then he woke up to a firefight and it hardly seemed that any time had passed at all.

Honestly, they should have transitioned Ashley closer to her appearance in ME3. That would have provided the context of time to the event on Horizon. Further, she treats Shepard exactly how her grandfather was treated by the Alliance after Shanxi. That is another thing that I cannot understand. Of all people, she knew Shep best and then she turns around and does what she did on Horizon. Unbelievable.

I can understand her refusing to go with Shepard. She has other duties and she isn't sure about Cerberus. But what she did to Shepard is just incomprehensible. Frankly, I think that she had a psychotic break. Hopefully, BioWare will address this issue more fully in ME3. Maybe they can explain it as a side effect of being released from the dark energy stasis field or something and through the miracle of anti-psychotic medication and counseling she is healed (feel free to take this and run with it BioWare, no charge). All I know is that I am not the only one who was not impressed with Ashley on Horizon or the bad taste it left in my mouth.