281 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

rapscallioness wrote...

@Siansonea: yes, Ash/Kaidan did have every right to question Shep.The whole thing must have been shocking and un- effing- believable. I just wish the scene would have been more fleshed out. I don't know about you, but with my friends and/or lovers the conversation woulda been a bit longer than the crap we had to chose from on the Horizon.

Oh yes, I agree, Shepard should have more and better things to say. But Shepard went into complete Derp Mode as soon as Ashley strode into the clearing. Ashley conducted herself as she should have. Clearly Shepard was not the person she thought she knew, if Shepard is standing there with Cerberus after two years of silence. That's not the Shepard who stormed the Citadel and defeated Saren. That's not the person who gazed regretfully at Admiral Kahoku's lifeless body, poisoned by Cerberus. That's not the person who convinced Corporal Toombs to let the Cerberus doctor live to face justice, and who kept Toombs from taking his own life. Nope, that's a different Shepard.

[Blitzkrieg0811]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

This isn't just them whining because Shepard didn't call and it has everything to do with him showing up with a rogue alliance group that was in their eyes a terrorist orginization.

Ah... now we get to the crux of the matter. They should have overlooked his affiliation with Cerberus due to all that trust built in ME1. What happened to "Oh Captain, My Captain"?

[Seboist]

Since Ashley is dead in my playthrough, no I didn't lose respect for her.

[Repearized Miranda]

Many of us probably didn't pick the "neutral" responses which is why the reactions happened the way they did. I, too, wish people would let that go and move on. She said she was sorry. If Shepard can do it (presumably), we can, too - and should.

[AngelicMachinery]

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

This isn't just them whining because Shepard didn't call and it has everything to do with him showing up with a rogue alliance group that was in their eyes a terrorist orginization.

Ah... now we get to the crux of the matter. They should have overlooked his affiliation with Cerberus due to all that trust built in ME1. What happened to "Oh Captain, My Captain"?

This isn’t a situation where Shepard is saying “Guys,  I know this looks like it sucks but it’s going to be TOTALLY AWESOME.”  This is Shepard saying “I’m working with a terrorist cell that we fought against.  I know they’ve committed some heinous crimes, but they’re like totally better now.  You can trust me,  they brought me back from the dead they’ve gotta be awesome.”   Seems more like Shepard betrayed their trust and not vice versa.

[Abispa]

No, I don't blame Ashley, she reacted as she should have given the inane responses allowed Shepard. I lost respect for Shepard for being a douche, for working with Cerberus, for boarding and destroying a Reaper corpse that could have once and for all proved the Council that Reapers aren't Geth technology, and for not realizing the amazing potential of Biotic God. I lost respect of Garrus for blindly following Shepard once he finds out s/he's working for a human-centric terrorist organization infamous for its biological experiments. And I lost respect for Tali for being a Shepard groupie EVEN IF he spent the whole of ME1 treating her like a leper.

[rapscallioness]

@Siansonea...fair enough. Except for one lil bit.Clearly Shep. wasn't the person Ash/Kaidan knew?...but...we know that Shep was still that person. So, what happened? Hmmm...Perhaps that was a realistic convo. We all know there are things we wished we had said, but too bad we only thought of them later..too late

[Blitzkrieg0811]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

This isn’t a situation where Shepard is saying “Guys,  I know this looks like it sucks but it’s going to be TOTALLY AWESOME.”  This is Shepard saying “I’m working with a terrorist cell that we fought against.  I know they’ve committed some heinous crimes, but they’re like totally better now.  You can trust me,  they brought me back from the dead they’ve gotta be awesome.”   Seems more like Shepard betrayed their trust and not vice versa.

Well, now we're just arguing over expectations of trust. Perhaps we should agree to disagree.

[slimgrin]

Siansonea II wrote...

Oh yes, I agree, Shepard should have more and better things to say

Which is exactly my point. They didn't offer enough dialog, or the right dialog. This can't just be tossed off as, 'well that's the writer's intent.'

Their execution of the scene is flawed. 

[Abispa]

rapscallioness wrote...

@Siansonea...fair enough. Except for one lil bit.Clearly Shep. wasn't the person Ash/Kaidan knew?...but...we know that Shep was still that person. So, what happened? Hmmm...Perhaps that was a realistic convo. We all know there are things we wished we had said, but too bad we only thought of them later..too late

To be honest, I didn't feel this was the "same" Shepard from ME1. I recognize that all VG RPGS merely offer the illusion of choice while giving everyone essentially the same game, maybe with the chapters in a different order. But ME2 felt more... I don't know... forced somehow. It wasn't as bad as DA2, but I definitely felt at times that I was on rails and that there were more times during the game that I wanted to make a choice that was never given.

What was maddening is that not only was I forced to have my survivor Shepard work for Cerberus, but that the game was staged so that any mistrust and hostility to the Cerberus crew, and especially especially especially the Alliance crewmembers that voluntarily joined, was a negative choice when base outrage should have been a normal response of the Alliance's top soldier.

Not ONCE during the game did the Cerberus crew comment on an out of control Cerberus project and say, "Wow, this organization is out of control!" which made Miranda's sudden resignation seem completely artificial given that TIM was her father figure, and the one who's protecting her sister, and that saving the Collector base makes sense -- that is, if Bioware gave us the option to hand it over to the Alliance, the Citadel, Salarian STG, Specters, etc.

Modifié par Abispa, 03 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .

[Raiil]

Speaking as someone who intensely dislikes Ashley, I thought her delivery on Horizon was done better than Kaidan's.

I don't blame the VS for being confused/hurt. I do blame them for having the emotional capacity of porridge. Ashley's 'I'm sorry letter' was a hell of a lot better, though.

[Iakus]

 Lose respect for Ash?  No.

Lose respect for Bioware?  Yes

Ash:  Shepard!  What happened?  Everyone thought you were dead!

Shepard:  Ashley!  Thank goodness you're all right!  Listen, the Collectors are behind the missing colonies.  You have to warn the Alliance!  Find Tali.  She can verif....

Bioware:  Assuming direct control...

Shepard:  Hey Ash.  Long time no see.  Wanna join Cerberus?  It'll be just like old times

Ashley:  What?  You traitor!  I can't believe I helped you steal an Alliance warship from the Citadel!

[Blitzkrieg0811]

iakus wrote...

 Lose respect for Ash?  No.

Lose respect for Bioware?  Yes

Ash:  Shepard!  What happened?  Everyone thought you were dead!

Shepard:  Ashley!  Thank goodness you're all right!  Listen, the Collectors are behind the missing colonies.  You have to warn the Alliance!  Find Tali.  She can verif....

Bioware:  Assuming direct control...

Shepard:  Hey Ash.  Long time no see.  Wanna join Cerberus?  It'll be just like old times

Ashley:  What?  You traitor!  I can't believe I helped you steal an Alliance warship from the Citadel!

Hmm... you may have a point. But then, can you really say that Shepard, and by extension Ashley, is the same one  from ME1?

[rapscallioness]

@Abispa: I didn't like working for Cerberus either, but that was the game. Although I didn't feel forced. My Shep. still made the choices that she woulda made otherwise. As far as the Alliance crew...Jacob was a former Allaince, but he didn't trust Cerberus. And Ken and Gabby...I can't be outraged with them. they stood up for Shep. and pretty much got booted for it. Now, I'm an Alliance girl, but the Alliance pulled some dirty moves. I felt like we were all in some weird place doing the best we could.

Saving the Collector base did make sense, but my Shep went in there planning to blow that son of a gun up, and she left blowing it up. The place disgusted me. It woulda made sense for the tech...but, not even for the Alliance would my Shep have saved that place.

[rapscallioness]

Interesting. I see some folks wondering if Shep was the "same" from ME1 to ME2. I feel like mine was the same. She still had the same character (although maybe not the best lines). Like Slimgrin said..that scene on Horizon...sucked. But I don't get too upset about it because either way my Kaidan was not coming to kick the Collectors in the Daddybags...

But then ...all the characters we knew before did change. For Shep.it's been the coma/dead as dead can be thing for the past 2 years..so no character development? Although that has to mess with your mind at least a lil bit (even tho you may not have the lines to express it!). The characters should change. But at the same time certain things don't change. For me, even the lil things like helping that Batarian get to Mordin's clinic. Either one of my Shep.s woulda done the same thing.

[adawg828]

well... i lost respect for her in that but then when i saw how she looked in ME3 im like okay forget that

[Siansonea]

rapscallioness wrote...

@Siansonea...fair enough. Except for one lil bit.Clearly Shep. wasn't the person Ash/Kaidan knew?...but...we know that Shep was still that person. So, what happened? Hmmm...Perhaps that was a realistic convo. We all know there are things we wished we had said, but too bad we only thought of them later..too late

Yes, we the players know that Shep is on the up-and-up. Kinda. Maybe? But there is no way that Ashley could know that. Ashley wasn't on Freedom's Progress, she's getting stonewalled by Anderson, and the circumstances are just too damning. And Shepard shows up with creepy scars, a Cerberus Fake Normandy, and — well, that's not the same Shepard she knew.

I try to look at the situation from Ashley's point of view. For her, there was a big emotional situation of Shepard being lost over Alchera, and the Alliance backtracking on the Reapers, and Shepard's legacy being swept under the rug. "What's going on?" Ashley wants to know.

Two years go by, and the Alliance hears some nasty reports about Cerberus, that they might be behind the human colony abductions, and that Shepard might be working with them. "What's going on?" Ashley wants to know.

Then she comes face to face with Shepard—at the site of a human colony abduction. Clearly Cerberus didn't fly that big ship with the creepy aliens and the stinging bugs, but—gee, the timing is awfully coincidental. And Shepard acts like it's no big deal, like no time has passed, and hey Ash, how've you been? Just kickin' it with Cerberus, casual as can be. Freaking Cerberus!!!!

Yeah, I think I would have gone WAY more ballistic than Ashley did.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:08 .

[Abispa]

rapscallioness wrote...

@Abispa: I didn't like working for Cerberus either, but that was the game. Although I didn't feel forced. My Shep. still made the choices that she woulda made otherwise. As far as the Alliance crew...Jacob was a former Allaince, but he didn't trust Cerberus. And Ken and Gabby...I can't be outraged with them. they stood up for Shep. and pretty much got booted for it. Now, I'm an Alliance girl, but the Alliance pulled some dirty moves. I felt like we were all in some weird place doing the best we could.

Saving the Collector base did make sense, but my Shep went in there planning to blow that son of a gun up, and she left blowing it up. The place disgusted me. It woulda made sense for the tech...but, not even for the Alliance would my Shep have saved that place.

I wasn't arguing that the base SHOULD be saved, only that there were some pretty good reasons Miranda could give to save the base, but Bioware assumed direct control and completed her incredibly unrealistic transformation from Shepard challenger to Shepard groupie. I was stunned when I saved the base with one of my renegade Shepards and found her criticizing Shepard's decision, and when I heard that she'd resign if you had her in your squad when you decide to destroy it, I was stunned again and utterly disappointed when I saw it for myself. I would say it was the result of being inseminated with Shepard magic, but she even does this for non-romance Shepard.

[AngelicMachinery]

Abispa wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

@Abispa: I didn't like working for Cerberus either, but that was the game. Although I didn't feel forced. My Shep. still made the choices that she woulda made otherwise. As far as the Alliance crew...Jacob was a former Allaince, but he didn't trust Cerberus. And Ken and Gabby...I can't be outraged with them. they stood up for Shep. and pretty much got booted for it. Now, I'm an Alliance girl, but the Alliance pulled some dirty moves. I felt like we were all in some weird place doing the best we could.

Saving the Collector base did make sense, but my Shep went in there planning to blow that son of a gun up, and she left blowing it up. The place disgusted me. It woulda made sense for the tech...but, not even for the Alliance would my Shep have saved that place.

I wasn't arguing that the base SHOULD be saved, only that there were some pretty good reasons Miranda could give to save the base, but Bioware assumed direct control and completed her incredibly unrealistic transformation from Shepard challenger to Shepard groupie. I was stunned when I saved the base with one of my renegade Shepards and found her criticizing Shepard's decision, and when I heard that she'd resign if you had her in your squad when you decide to destroy it, I was stunned again and utterly disappointed when I saw it for myself. I would say it was the result of being inseminated with Shepard magic, but she even does this for non-romance Shepard.

I've never seen Miranda's resignation.  Does it only happen for MShep?  If so..  I'm going to fume not so quietly.

[rapscallioness]

LOL @adawg.

Well, I gotta get outta here. But I very much enjoyed the conversation. And I know it's a worn out topic for the BWN old heads, but I'm new here..it's new to me. And it was fun.

Oh, b4 I 4 get @ashlover..thank you, thank you, thank you for fighting for our Ash/Kaidans.

[Abispa]

AngelicMachinery wrote...
I've never seen Miranda's resignation.  Does it only happen for MShep?  If so..  I'm going to fume not so quietly.

If she is in your squad as you take down the human reaper she will tell you that TIM has a message. You know the deal at that point. If you destroy the base, TIM goes nuts and Miranda (and Jacob, too, if he's there) pretty much quit Cerberus. If you keep the base, Miranda tells you how disappointed she is when you visit her after the credits.

She's has the same responses for all Shepards, no matter gender or romantic status.

Modifié par Abispa, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:16 .

[rapscallioness]

@abispa...inseminated w/shep magic..lol. Uh, yeah, I don't know about the Miranda resignation, either. (like you Angelic). I heard about it enuf, tho, I figured I just missed it. So, maybe it is that Shep magic. You don't even have to romance her. You're just that damn compelling!

[AngelicMachinery]

Abispa wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...
I've never seen Miranda's resignation.  Does it only happen for MShep?  If so..  I'm going to fume not so quietly.

If she is in your squad as you take down the human reaper she will tell you that TIM has a message. You know the deal at that point. If you destroy the base, TIM goes nuts and Miranda (and Jacob, too, if he's there) pretty much quit Cerberus. If you keep the base, Miranda tells you how disappointed she is when you visit her after the credits.

Huh, got a few saves before the baby reaper...  might have to give this a go... but I was sure I had Miranda in my squad in a few play throughs at the end.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Siansonea II wrote...

Then she comes face to face with Shepard—at the site of a human colony abduction. Clearly Cerberus didn't fly that big ship with the creepy aliens and the stinging bugs, but—gee, the timing is awfully coincidental. And Shepard acts like it's no big deal, like no time has passed, and hey Ash, how've you been? Just kickin' it with Cerberus, casual as can be. Freaking Cerberus!!!!

Yeah, I think I would have gone WAY more ballistic than Ashley did.

This.

Honestly, I'm entirely surprised this is an issue for people. When a character joins a terrorist organization, expect other characters to take exception. What is it with the BSN and people wanting constant emotional validation from their video game characters?

[Abispa]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Abispa wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...
I've never seen Miranda's resignation.  Does it only happen for MShep?  If so..  I'm going to fume not so quietly.

If she is in your squad as you take down the human reaper she will tell you that TIM has a message. You know the deal at that point. If you destroy the base, TIM goes nuts and Miranda (and Jacob, too, if he's there) pretty much quit Cerberus. If you keep the base, Miranda tells you how disappointed she is when you visit her after the credits.

Huh, got a few saves before the baby reaper...  might have to give this a go... but I was sure I had Miranda in my squad in a few play throughs at the end.

Maybe one of our games is bugged. I got the XBox version, by the way.