281 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

It was just a exuse to keep Kaidan/Ashley out of ME2 and perhaps it could have been done better in hindsight. But still the reaction was rather understandable, after all this is Failberus we are talking about. In fact I respect Kaidan and Ashley for not following along just because Shepard said it was okay, they showed some guts and independence in the face of Super Shepard who is usualy always right.

Modifié par lovgreno, 03 juillet 2011 - 09:31 .

[Major Alenko]

 I lost all respect for her in ME1 when she started btching about Wrex and Garrus. That moment on I knew she would die, and die she did, in every playthrough 

[Rogue Unit]

Never had any respect to lose in the first place.

[CroGamer002]

No, I just started to doubt in Bioware on not making Shepard total derp.

[Pedro Costa]

Mesina2 wrote...

No, I just started to doubt in Bioware on not making Shepard total derp.

Yeah, pretty much. =s

[knightnblu]

Wow, so many people on this forum must be used to being called traitors all of the time in order to be so forgiving. Particularly by people who know you well and claim to have loved you. Me? I don't worry about the average citizen in the street calling me a traitor. They don't know me and frankly, I really don't care about their opinion of me.

Ashley on the other hand, is a different story. We met, developed a friendship, grew close and got intimate before saving the Citadel. She and I served together for two months after the Battle of the Citadel. She was the first person I asked Anderson about and was basically told she was deep cover and that was all that I got.

Then I meet her on Horizon and...well, you know the rest. I don't usually hold grudges, but her actions were a bit much to take. As I play RPG's like I would if my personality were placed in that same situation, I promoted her to permanent citizen. So now she can believe whatever the hell she wants to believe and I really don't care.

If Miranda ever does the same, she will go the same way and at the same velocity. A lot of you folks apparently thrive on drama and chaos, I don't. Inflexible? Maybe, but that's who I am. I don't view the world in 64,000 shades of gray. I see the world as black and white and either you want to be with me, or you don't. Ashley chose don't.

So while I still respect her as a person, I don't respect her as an intimate. If that hurts Ashley's feelings, tough. I hear Anderson is free if she needs some comforting.

[mineralica]

Mesina2 wrote...

No, I just started to doubt in Bioware on not making Shepard total derp.

Yess, yess. Going through Praetorian battle at first time. Hands are shaking - Vanguard isn't the best class for this battle anyways. Seeing Collectors ship taking off and already expecting "Commander Alenko was taken by Collectors. Now you have one more reason for revenge" from the Illusive man. Seeing the squadmate you was worried about since the beginning of ME2 coming to Shepard alive and unharmed, picking the top option with almost tears of relief and hearing:
"It's been a long time, Kaidan. How you've been?"
I've never experienced headkeyboard that massive before and, hopefully, won't do it in future

[tomas2377]

I didn't lose any respect for Ashley.

In fact I lost a lot of respect for the writers for that awfull scene. It was just so badly written and poorly executed. I even lost some respect for Shepard the first time around but reminded myself that it was the writers fault.

That scene depressed me for over a month. I invest a lot of emotions into RPGs because I see them as a flight from reality.

Ashley is my LI in every MShep playthrough and stays loyal to her always.

[RGC_Ines]

knightnblu wrote...

Wow, so many people on this forum must be used to being called traitors all of the time in order to be so forgiving. Particularly by people who know you well and claim to have loved you. Me? I don't worry about the average citizen in the street calling me a traitor. They don't know me and frankly, I really don't care about their opinion of me.

Ashley on the other hand, is a different story. We met, developed a friendship, grew close and got intimate before saving the Citadel. She and I served together for two months after the Battle of the Citadel. She was the first person I asked Anderson about and was basically told she was deep cover and that was all that I got.

Then I meet her on Horizon and...well, you know the rest. I don't usually hold grudges, but her actions were a bit much to take. As I play RPG's like I would if my personality were placed in that same situation, I promoted her to permanent citizen. So now she can believe whatever the hell she wants to believe and I really don't care.

If Miranda ever does the same, she will go the same way and at the same velocity. A lot of you folks apparently thrive on drama and chaos, I don't. Inflexible? Maybe, but that's who I am. I don't view the world in 64,000 shades of gray. I see the world as black and white and either you want to be with me, or you don't. Ashley chose don't.

So while I still respect her as a person, I don't respect her as an intimate. If that hurts Ashley's feelings, tough. I hear Anderson is free if she needs some comforting.

That's exactly what I was thinking about all of my Sheps&Kaidan.
So many old friends is able to belive and trust Shepard, even follow her into hell, but the only one person who " loved" her even don't want to try ... 

[True Zarken]

Nope I didn't lose respect for Ashley, just Bioware for the bad writing.

[V-rex]

knightnblu wrote...

Snip

Before we begin, let me just start by saying I respect your opinion and I am not in the interest of intentionally trying to rile you up. This is just me stating it the way I, and I believe a good portion of others might see it.

Let me put it this way:

Imagine if your absolute favorite character in.... anything, any movie, book, game, comic, TV show or whatever gets a great established beginning that makes you really like them, but then in the sequel, not ONLY are they given the crappiest role out of all of the characters in the story, but said role seemed to almost be written in a way to hamfistedly TELL you to dislike them.

Maybe some people will, but I WON'T. I liked Ashley in Mass Effect way too much for the Horizon encounter to soil it, and subsequently am able to make excuses for months on end to justfiy her position and accept any apology no matter how half baked and slight.
Because at the end of the day, Ashley's my girl. I don't blame her for the fault of shoddy writing. I also like to roleplay my perspective of Commander Shepard as a sensitive and tragically hopeful romantic type who is ready to hold out all hopes no matter how slim that he'll see the person he loves return.

As it stands, my resentment is fixed solely on Bioware for writing such a crappy scene. There was no need for it. It annoys me because the whole game is geared in such a way that it's trying really unsubtely to make the VS character some kind of enemy to be hated (much in the same way they, with no subtelty, make Liara a Mary Sue in Lair of the Shadow Broker). And I stick proudly by my choice no matter what as a result.
Again, I liked her too much in Mass Effect 1 to let the change bother me... and when the game started trying to convince me to hate her, I resisted.

Can you honestly say anyone else wouldn't? Do you think the Tali fanbase wouldn't leap to make justifications to defend Tali's honor if there ends up being a scene in Mass Effect 3 where she goes crazy and kicks Shepard in the balls and attempts to spit in his face in disgust?
Do you think the Legion fans wouldn't make justification over and over again if he went rogue and joined the Reapers?
Do you think the Garrus fans wouldn't try to rationalize Garrus's sudden betrayal and attempted arrest of Shepard as being anything more then him 'struggling with ideas of right and wrong?'

And do you think any of these fanbases would be any less PISSED OFF that said scenes had to happen then the VS fanbase was?

So when people defend Ashley and Kaidan for Horizon, it usually stems from us REALLY liking said characters in Mass Effect 1. Enough that it doesn't matter to us if they join the team or not, enough that we are ready to make justifications to high heavens and get involved in really long debates.
It's also because we like our favorite characters a lot, we grew to like them over the course of Mass Effect 1 and we refuse to knuckle under to the game studio now subtely telling us:
"NO, YOU DON'T LIKE THESE CHARACTERS ANYMORE!!! WE MADE THEM INTO DICKS, SEE? HENCE YOU CAN'T LIKE THEM ANYMORE BECAUSE WE SAID SO!!!! NOW GO WORSHIP THE CHARACTERS WE TELL YOU TO, YOU SHEEP!!"

Currently, despite all the negative things about Bioware I've said so far, they've clearly still allowed us to make our choices and like who we like. A lot of us, have chosen to stick with what we like.
Sometimes a good thing is worth the wait.

Of course you are entitled to your way of doing things as well, that's how a role playing game works.

Anyway, when it comes to this whole Ashley thing and the reuinion, the best thing that can be said regarding my opinion of Ashley had already been said once before.... by Frank Sinatra and Natalie Cole.

Hit it!

Modifié par V-rex, 03 juillet 2011 - 01:17 .

[knightnblu]

V-rex - I respect your opinion, but I am afraid that I will have to concur with another poster who said that a fictional character is who the writer makes them to be, not who I want them to be or imagine them to be. Regardless of how Ashley is written, she is who the writer says she is and my wanting it to be different does not make it so.

For some unknown reason, the writer made Ash have a psychotic break on Horizon. Not my choice, but it is what it is. I really liked Ashley's character in ME. I like strong, independent women, but I also detest head games. In real life, the quickest way to get rid of me is to start playing head games. Why should a PC game be any different? Some people don't see it that way and I have no problem with their perception. If it works for them, then fine.

I look at it this way, Miranda stood by me when it counted and Ashley did not. Miranda, who deeply believes in a human positive agenda and in Cerberus, left the organization she has deep ties with in order to stand by Shepard. That means something because there will be consequences for that choice. Because Miranda is now freelance, I highly doubt that Cerberus will continue its protection of her sister and that had to have crossed her mind when she pulled the plug on TIM. Is Miranda the friendliest or most open woman in the Mass Effect universe? Not hardly, but loyalty to Shepard has to count for something.

In my opinion, Miranda was true to Shepard while Ashley, who should have known him best, was not. A tepid apology sent by email does not change that. Parroting the words of poets does not change that either. Ashley is not some puppet of Cyrano de Bergerac performing a space love opera, she is supposed to be a soldier who is independent, strong, and smart. On Horizon, she was independent and strong, but she left smart in her other armor apparently. Again, Ashley is a hell of a fighter and is probably a great Specter and Alliance Officer, but as a friend and a lover she leaves a lot to be desired the way I see it.

[V-rex]

knightnblu wrote...
snip

Fair enough, I'd get into further debate about this but it's late and I'm tired.
In any case, agree to disagree?

As one final note though, the actual person responsible for the writing of Ashley in Mass Effect 1, Chris L'otile left Bioware and was replaced by someone else. That alone might explain why so much changed.

Modifié par V-rex, 03 juillet 2011 - 03:19 .

[dahoughtonuk]

Those who ask why the VS survivor stomps off - L2/Williams that's all you need to know.

In the end it's a question of trust. They let you in and now you seem to be betraying them. Pragia/Conatix anyone?

The jingoism that hurts people with the name of Williams?

It went badly but it was always going to. Cerberus represents their worst experiences and they won't think straight with that.

[Siansonea]

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

[turian councilor Knockout]

Nope. i've never liked her so i couldn't care less.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

knightnblu wrote...
In my opinion, Miranda was true to Shepard while Ashley, who should have known him best, was not.

Personally, i like it when central characters display loyalty to things other than the protagonist. It makes the game a better story, because pople have multiple loyalities IRL and characters should not be written to emotionally validate the player. Particularly in the case of a character like Ashley, who is a soldier in the Alliance and should be loyal to that organization. See also: Dragon Age: Origins, Witcher/Witcher 2, and so on.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:49 .

[AngelicMachinery]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
In my opinion, Miranda was true to Shepard while Ashley, who should have known him best, was not.

Personally, i like it when central characters display loyalty to things other than the protagonist. It makes the game a better story, because pople have multiple loyalities IRL and characters should not be written to emotionally validate the player. Particularly in the case of a character like Ashley, who is a soldier in the Alliance and should be loyal to that organization. See also: Dragon Age: Origins, Witcher/Witcher 2, and so on.

Sorry,  but the PC must be worshipped as god.  

[Raizo]

I would not say that I lost respect for Ashley during Horizon but the whole entire reunion scene on Horizon between her and Shepard left a very nasty taste in my mouth. I will never romance her ever, ever again for example, as an LI the character is dead to me, whether I will except her as a teammate/squadmate in ME3 depends entirely on how well the character is written in ME3, she is going to have to work very hard not to ****** me off in that game since I am this close to wishing there was a Renegade Interupt in ME3 to kill the VS just for existing and the fact that the ME3 is forcing me to carry a squad mate that I no longer want anything to do with.

[Siansonea]

Raizo wrote...

I would not say that I lost respect for Ashley during Horizon but the whole entire reunion scene on Horizon between her and Shepard left a very nasty taste in my mouth. I will never romance her ever, ever again for example, as an LI the character is dead to me, whether I will except her as a teammate/squadmate in ME3 depends entirely on how well the character is written in ME3, she is going to have to work very hard not to ****** me off in that game since I am this close to wishing there was a Renegade Interupt in ME3 to kill the VS just for existing and the fact that the ME3 is forcing me to carry a squad mate that I no longer want anything to do with.

Really? You want to KILL a character because she has the nerve to call you on your questionable decision to work for Cerberus? REALLY. You don't see how she might have a point, that maybe working with Cerberus is more than enough cause for someone to doubt your character? Did you even play the first game?

Man, I really wish I knew the age/gender breakdown of the participants in this thread. The emotional maturity I'm seeing is of a particularly pubescent variety, I'd like to know if the chronological ages match.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Raizo wrote...

I would not say that I lost respect for Ashley during Horizon but the whole entire reunion scene on Horizon between her and Shepard left a very nasty taste in my mouth. I will never romance her ever, ever again for example, as an LI the character is dead to me, whether I will except her as a teammate/squadmate in ME3 depends entirely on how well the character is written in ME3, she is going to have to work very hard not to ****** me off in that game since I am this close to wishing there was a Renegade Interupt in ME3 to kill the VS just for existing and the fact that the ME3 is forcing me to carry a squad mate that I no longer want anything to do with.

The thing I'm confused is that you're mad and not happy that a scene from a game affected you emotionally to that degree. Once again, the characters are there (or should be... f*cking Tali...) to tell a story, not to validate you emotionally.

[AngelicMachinery]

Siansonea II wrote...

Raizo wrote...

I would not say that I lost respect for Ashley during Horizon but the whole entire reunion scene on Horizon between her and Shepard left a very nasty taste in my mouth. I will never romance her ever, ever again for example, as an LI the character is dead to me, whether I will except her as a teammate/squadmate in ME3 depends entirely on how well the character is written in ME3, she is going to have to work very hard not to ****** me off in that game since I am this close to wishing there was a Renegade Interupt in ME3 to kill the VS just for existing and the fact that the ME3 is forcing me to carry a squad mate that I no longer want anything to do with.

Really? You want to KILL a character because she has the nerve to call you on your questionable decision to work for Cerberus? REALLY. You don't see how she might have a point, that maybe working with Cerberus is more than enough cause for someone to doubt your character? Did you even play the first game?

Man, I really wish I knew the age/gender breakdown of the participants in this thread. The emotional maturity I'm seeing is of a particularly pubescent variety, I'd like to know if the chronological ages match.

I've already kind of assumed that most of the people raging on Ash and Kaidan are male.  I'm really haven't thought much about age.

[Raizo]

Siansonea II wrote...

Raizo wrote...

I would not say that I lost respect for Ashley during Horizon but the whole entire reunion scene on Horizon between her and Shepard left a very nasty taste in my mouth. I will never romance her ever, ever again for example, as an LI the character is dead to me, whether I will except her as a teammate/squadmate in ME3 depends entirely on how well the character is written in ME3, she is going to have to work very hard not to ****** me off in that game since I am this close to wishing there was a Renegade Interupt in ME3 to kill the VS just for existing and the fact that the ME3 is forcing me to carry a squad mate that I no longer want anything to do with.

Really? You want to KILL a character because she has the nerve to call you on your questionable decision to work for Cerberus? REALLY. You don't see how she might have a point, that maybe working with Cerberus is more than enough cause for someone to doubt your character? Did you even play the first game?

Man, I really wish I knew the age/gender breakdown of the participants in this thread. The emotional maturity I'm seeing is of a particularly pubescent variety, I'd like to know if the chronological ages match.

32 if you have to know.

Modifié par Raizo, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:15 .