281 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

That might be because we are, generally, not wrong- in the sense that game narrative, as dictacted by WoG, says we're not.  Cerberus is posed as a necessary evil in game and the only group willing to help you take on the Reapers, which is ultimately Shepard- everyone's Shepard- ultimate goal. In the narration of the universe, Ashley/Kaidan is wrong because Shepard, by dint of being the champion, has to be right, even if it's quickly approaching the moral event horizion for some RPers.

However, as I said before, I do believe they had a very understanding reaction and I don't blame them for being angry. I do find stupidity that the scene wasn't expanded enough for a proper explaination (although I also understand that it could have potentially paved the way for Shepard leaving Cerberus too early) and I do feel in the end, the VS flounced off without stopping for a moment of rational thought- possible control chip? undercover work? something else?.

[Siansonea]

Raizo wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Raizo wrote...

I would not say that I lost respect for Ashley during Horizon but the whole entire reunion scene on Horizon between her and Shepard left a very nasty taste in my mouth. I will never romance her ever, ever again for example, as an LI the character is dead to me, whether I will except her as a teammate/squadmate in ME3 depends entirely on how well the character is written in ME3, she is going to have to work very hard not to ****** me off in that game since I am this close to wishing there was a Renegade Interupt in ME3 to kill the VS just for existing and the fact that the ME3 is forcing me to carry a squad mate that I no longer want anything to do with.

Really? You want to KILL a character because she has the nerve to call you on your questionable decision to work for Cerberus? REALLY. You don't see how she might have a point, that maybe working with Cerberus is more than enough cause for someone to doubt your character? Did you even play the first game?

Man, I really wish I knew the age/gender breakdown of the participants in this thread. The emotional maturity I'm seeing is of a particularly pubescent variety, I'd like to know if the chronological ages match.

32 is have to know.

Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmm. Hmmm.

If that's actually true, then...

[Raiil]

And for the record, I'm 29, and a female, and I don't like either VS.

[Raizo]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Raizo wrote...

I would not say that I lost respect for Ashley during Horizon but the whole entire reunion scene on Horizon between her and Shepard left a very nasty taste in my mouth. I will never romance her ever, ever again for example, as an LI the character is dead to me, whether I will except her as a teammate/squadmate in ME3 depends entirely on how well the character is written in ME3, she is going to have to work very hard not to ****** me off in that game since I am this close to wishing there was a Renegade Interupt in ME3 to kill the VS just for existing and the fact that the ME3 is forcing me to carry a squad mate that I no longer want anything to do with.

The thing I'm confused is that you're mad and not happy that a scene from a game affected you emotionally to that degree. Once again, the characters are there (or should be... f*cking Tali...) to tell a story, not to validate you emotionally.

The scene fails because of ****** poor writing. I am smart enough to realise that but it does not change the I can no longer look at the character the same way after it, Horizon has ruined the character for me for good.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Raizo wrote...

The scene fails because of ****** poor writing. I am smart enough to realise that but it does not change the I can no longer look at the character the same way after it, Horizon has ruined the character for me for good.

People getting mad because their former commanders join a hilariously evil terrorist organization is bad writing? That's called "things not always going your way" and it would be awesome if Bioware did more of it.

See, this is why we can't have nice things. (Or we can, but only if we go to Atlus or CDProjekt. I'd like Bioware to make me nice things, too.)

[Repearized Miranda]

Valentia X wrote...

And for the record, I'm 29, and a female, and I don't like either VS.

28 and male here

I don't like Ashley for how she said what she said. I don't have a problem with WHY she said it. Ashley is most likely going to be with me in ME3. So for me, I'll let by gones be by gones.

[Siansonea]

Valentia X wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

That might be because we are, generally, not wrong- in the sense that game narrative, as dictacted by WoG, says we're not.  Cerberus is posed as a necessary evil in game and the only group willing to help you take on the Reapers, which is ultimately Shepard- everyone's Shepard- ultimate goal. In the narration of the universe, Ashley/Kaidan is wrong because Shepard, by dint of being the champion, has to be right, even if it's quickly approaching the moral event horizion for some RPers.

However, as I said before, I do believe they had a very understanding reaction and I don't blame them for being angry. I do find stupidity that the scene wasn't expanded enough for a proper explaination (although I also understand that it could have potentially paved the way for Shepard leaving Cerberus too early) and I do feel in the end, the VS flounced off without stopping for a moment of rational thought- possible control chip? undercover work? something else?.

So Ashley is supposed to know that she's a fictional character in a video game, and that Shepard is the player character/hero protagonist? Ashley's supposed to go along with Shepard, be a Shepard cheerleader, never question anything Shepard does, because she's a fictional character in a video game? Does anyone not see the fundamental disconnect here? Ashley is a person, she can only make decisions based on things she has directly experienced and observed, and everything she knows points to Shepard being a traitor. Yes, the "player" knows that Shepard is working for Cerberus for "the right reasons" (maybe?), but Ashley can't possibly know that. She can't hear the 'word of God' and shouldn't be judged on that basis. For that matter, the fact that Shepard doesn't question Cerberus is appalling, word of God or no. Is this thing on? *taps microphone*

As far as I'm concerned Ashley was VERY rational with Shepard, it's Shepard who heaps Herp upon Derp and expects everyone else to just go with it because he's the protagonist/player character/brick. If there is any Writing Fail in this scene, it's Shepard's lines, not Ashley's. If Horizon had been an Alliance colony, Ashley would probably have been required to arrest Shepard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Shepard is going to start ME3 on trial. Yeah, that's right, Shepard has to face the music, so those who fantasize about navigating a player character in a 100% Wish Fulfillment Universe where other characters exist solely to be killed or to verbally fellate the self-insert character are going to be sorely disappointed.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:27 .

[slimgrin]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...


People getting mad because their former commanders join a hilariously evil terrorist organization is bad writing? That's called "things not always going your way" and it would be awesome if Bioware did more of it.

See, this is why we can't have nice things. (Or we can, but only if we go to Atlus or CDProjekt. I'd like Bioware to make me nice things, too.)

If Ashley gave solid reasons, if there was more to the scene, more back story perhaps, I would agree with you.

I think DA did a better job of showing divisive moments with your companions.

Modifié par slimgrin, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:26 .

[NICKjnp]

I lost respect for Shepard and his/her Joey Tribbiani line.

[Repearized Miranda]

Siansonea II wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

That might be because we are, generally, not wrong- in the sense that game narrative, as dictacted by WoG, says we're not.  Cerberus is posed as a necessary evil in game and the only group willing to help you take on the Reapers, which is ultimately Shepard- everyone's Shepard- ultimate goal. In the narration of the universe, Ashley/Kaidan is wrong because Shepard, by dint of being the champion, has to be right, even if it's quickly approaching the moral event horizion for some RPers.

However, as I said before, I do believe they had a very understanding reaction and I don't blame them for being angry. I do find stupidity that the scene wasn't expanded enough for a proper explaination (although I also understand that it could have potentially paved the way for Shepard leaving Cerberus too early) and I do feel in the end, the VS flounced off without stopping for a moment of rational thought- possible control chip? undercover work? something else?.

So Ashley is supposed to know that she's a fictional character in a video game, and that Shepard is the player character/hero protagonist? Ashley's supposed to go along with Shepard, be a Shepard cheerleader, never question anything Shepard does, because she's a fictional character in a video game? Does anyone not see the fundamental disconnect here? Ashley is a person, she can only make decisions based on things she has directly experienced and observed, and everything she knows points to Shepard being a traitor. Yes, the "player" knows that Shepard is working for Cerberus for "the right reasons" (maybe?), but Ashley can't possibly know that. She can't hear the 'word of God' and shouldn't be judged on that basis. For that matter, the fact that Shepard doesn't question Cerberus is appalling, word of God or no. Is this thing on? *taps microphone*

As far as I'm concerned Ashley was VERY rational with Shepard, it's Shepard who heaps Herp upon Derp and expects everyone else to just go with it because he's the protagonist/player character/brick. If there is any Writing Fail in this scene, it's Shepard's lines, not Ashley's. If Horizon had been an Alliance colony, Ashley would probably have been required to arrest Shepard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Shepard is going to start ME3 on trial. Yeah, that's right, Shepard has to face the music, so those who fantasize about navigating a player character in a 100% Wish Fulfillment Universe where other characters exist solely to be killed or to verbally fellate the self-insert character are going to be sorely disappointed.

Can you honestly say that you'd take kindly to someone shooting off his/her mouth to you even if they have good reason for it? Ashley knew we (Shepard) wouldn't. that's why she "apologized" in the letter. Why is everyone jumping on Shepard as the NPCs - specifically Garrus that "alien" who befriended her - called her on it, Hell, Miranda said it was "typical Alliance attitude." Everybody said something against her viewpoint - not just Shepard. If Ashley's reasoning was rational, so was Shepard's and was the other NPCs'. If Ashley was NOT wrong, then why did she apologize?

[Siansonea]

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

And for the record, I'm 29, and a female, and I don't like either VS.

28 and male here

I don't like Ashley for how she said what she said. I don't have a problem with WHY she said it. Ashley is most likely going to be with me in ME3. So for me, I'll let by gones be by gones.

So how should Ashley have said what she said?

"Hi Shepard! I thought you were dead! I'm so glad you're still alive! You look great! Have you been working out? Oh, and I see you have some new friends! Cerberus, I see. Yeah, we went through some stuff with Cerberus in the old days, didn't we? LOL. Yeah, good times. Admiral Kahoku's widow says hi, by the way. Oh, and I ran into Corporal Toombs the other day. Still having nightmares from when those Cerberus scientists were injecting him with thresher maw acid, but he says hi too! So yeah, I would totally go with you, but I really need to get back to the Citadel and continue my own mission, but that's really just so I can be in the next game—er, mission. It was SO good catching up with you Shepard, maybe next game—uh, mission—we can get together and pick up where we left off before Ilos, huh? I've got some new poems to share with you. Bye Shepard! Love you!"

[Siansonea]

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

That might be because we are, generally, not wrong- in the sense that game narrative, as dictacted by WoG, says we're not.  Cerberus is posed as a necessary evil in game and the only group willing to help you take on the Reapers, which is ultimately Shepard- everyone's Shepard- ultimate goal. In the narration of the universe, Ashley/Kaidan is wrong because Shepard, by dint of being the champion, has to be right, even if it's quickly approaching the moral event horizion for some RPers.

However, as I said before, I do believe they had a very understanding reaction and I don't blame them for being angry. I do find stupidity that the scene wasn't expanded enough for a proper explaination (although I also understand that it could have potentially paved the way for Shepard leaving Cerberus too early) and I do feel in the end, the VS flounced off without stopping for a moment of rational thought- possible control chip? undercover work? something else?.

So Ashley is supposed to know that she's a fictional character in a video game, and that Shepard is the player character/hero protagonist? Ashley's supposed to go along with Shepard, be a Shepard cheerleader, never question anything Shepard does, because she's a fictional character in a video game? Does anyone not see the fundamental disconnect here? Ashley is a person, she can only make decisions based on things she has directly experienced and observed, and everything she knows points to Shepard being a traitor. Yes, the "player" knows that Shepard is working for Cerberus for "the right reasons" (maybe?), but Ashley can't possibly know that. She can't hear the 'word of God' and shouldn't be judged on that basis. For that matter, the fact that Shepard doesn't question Cerberus is appalling, word of God or no. Is this thing on? *taps microphone*

As far as I'm concerned Ashley was VERY rational with Shepard, it's Shepard who heaps Herp upon Derp and expects everyone else to just go with it because he's the protagonist/player character/brick. If there is any Writing Fail in this scene, it's Shepard's lines, not Ashley's. If Horizon had been an Alliance colony, Ashley would probably have been required to arrest Shepard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Shepard is going to start ME3 on trial. Yeah, that's right, Shepard has to face the music, so those who fantasize about navigating a player character in a 100% Wish Fulfillment Universe where other characters exist solely to be killed or to verbally fellate the self-insert character are going to be sorely disappointed.

Can you honestly say that you'd take kindly to someone shooting off his/her mouth to you even if they have good reason for it? Ashley knew we (Shepard) wouldn't. that's why she "apologized" in the letter. Why is everyone jumping on Shepard as the NPCs - specifically Garrus that "alien" who befriended her - called her on it, Hell, Miranda said it was "typical Alliance attitude." Everybody said something against her viewpoint - not just Shepard. If Ashley's reasoning was rational, so was Shepard's and was the other NPCs'. If Ashley was NOT wrong, then why did she apologize?

Yes. Because I don't automatically assume that I'm Always Right. What a concept! Sometimes a really good friend will cuff you upside the head and tell you "hey, drugs/crime/Cerberus are bad, mmmkay?" A real friend will tell you when you're wrong. People who surround themselves with sycophants are doing themselves a great disservice, but if your world view doesn't allow for you to be mistaken/wrong/stupid, then I guess sycophants are your only option. <_<

[AngelicMachinery]

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

That might be because we are, generally, not wrong- in the sense that game narrative, as dictacted by WoG, says we're not.  Cerberus is posed as a necessary evil in game and the only group willing to help you take on the Reapers, which is ultimately Shepard- everyone's Shepard- ultimate goal. In the narration of the universe, Ashley/Kaidan is wrong because Shepard, by dint of being the champion, has to be right, even if it's quickly approaching the moral event horizion for some RPers.

However, as I said before, I do believe they had a very understanding reaction and I don't blame them for being angry. I do find stupidity that the scene wasn't expanded enough for a proper explaination (although I also understand that it could have potentially paved the way for Shepard leaving Cerberus too early) and I do feel in the end, the VS flounced off without stopping for a moment of rational thought- possible control chip? undercover work? something else?.

So Ashley is supposed to know that she's a fictional character in a video game, and that Shepard is the player character/hero protagonist? Ashley's supposed to go along with Shepard, be a Shepard cheerleader, never question anything Shepard does, because she's a fictional character in a video game? Does anyone not see the fundamental disconnect here? Ashley is a person, she can only make decisions based on things she has directly experienced and observed, and everything she knows points to Shepard being a traitor. Yes, the "player" knows that Shepard is working for Cerberus for "the right reasons" (maybe?), but Ashley can't possibly know that. She can't hear the 'word of God' and shouldn't be judged on that basis. For that matter, the fact that Shepard doesn't question Cerberus is appalling, word of God or no. Is this thing on? *taps microphone*

As far as I'm concerned Ashley was VERY rational with Shepard, it's Shepard who heaps Herp upon Derp and expects everyone else to just go with it because he's the protagonist/player character/brick. If there is any Writing Fail in this scene, it's Shepard's lines, not Ashley's. If Horizon had been an Alliance colony, Ashley would probably have been required to arrest Shepard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Shepard is going to start ME3 on trial. Yeah, that's right, Shepard has to face the music, so those who fantasize about navigating a player character in a 100% Wish Fulfillment Universe where other characters exist solely to be killed or to verbally fellate the self-insert character are going to be sorely disappointed.

Can you honestly say that you'd take kindly to someone shooting off his/her mouth to you even if they have good reason for it? Ashley knew we (Shepard) wouldn't. that's why she "apologized" in the letter. Why is everyone jumping on Shepard as the NPCs - specifically Garrus that "alien" who befriended her - called her on it, Hell, Miranda said it was "typical Alliance attitude." Everybody said something against her viewpoint - not just Shepard. If Ashley's reasoning was rational, so was Shepard's and was the other NPCs'. If Ashley was NOT wrong, then why did she apologize?

Shepard’s response is natural if you assume that the weight of her situation hasn’t really registered to her.  Admittedly,  this could be so. It would be difficult to get your head wrapped around the idea of resurrection. 

On the other hand,  I do think some of the PLAYER’S reactions have been strange.  It seems as if they have taken MASSIVE offence to a character displaying a personality outside of being Shepard’s lackey.  From the perspective of the VS Shepard has done a complete heel turn and is started working for “The Enemy.” 

Shepard has a good reason,  we as the players know this.  It’s one of the perks of viewing the game as a passive observer.  On the other hand they just know that their good buddy showed up after faking her death working for Cerberus.  There’s such a ****load of **** for them to get their heads around that it makes sense that they’re having some sort of emotional break down.

Yet,  they’re the bad guys?  Why can’t people simply see it as they’re not Shepard’s meat puppets… unless that is of course some sort of sin. 

[Raiil]

Siansonea II wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

That might be because we are, generally, not wrong- in the sense that game narrative, as dictacted by WoG, says we're not.  Cerberus is posed as a necessary evil in game and the only group willing to help you take on the Reapers, which is ultimately Shepard- everyone's Shepard- ultimate goal. In the narration of the universe, Ashley/Kaidan is wrong because Shepard, by dint of being the champion, has to be right, even if it's quickly approaching the moral event horizion for some RPers.

However, as I said before, I do believe they had a very understanding reaction and I don't blame them for being angry. I do find stupidity that the scene wasn't expanded enough for a proper explaination (although I also understand that it could have potentially paved the way for Shepard leaving Cerberus too early) and I do feel in the end, the VS flounced off without stopping for a moment of rational thought- possible control chip? undercover work? something else?.

So Ashley is supposed to know that she's a fictional character in a video game, and that Shepard is the player character/hero protagonist? Ashley's supposed to go along with Shepard, be a Shepard cheerleader, never question anything Shepard does, because she's a fictional character in a video game? Does anyone not see the fundamental disconnect here? Ashley is a person, she can only make decisions based on things she has directly experienced and observed, and everything she knows points to Shepard being a traitor. Yes, the "player" knows that Shepard is working for Cerberus for "the right reasons" (maybe?), but Ashley can't possibly know that. She can't hear the 'word of God' and shouldn't be judged on that basis. For that matter, the fact that Shepard doesn't question Cerberus is appalling, word of God or no. Is this thing on? *taps microphone*

As far as I'm concerned Ashley was VERY rational with Shepard, it's Shepard who heaps Herp upon Derp and expects everyone else to just go with it because he's the protagonist/player character/brick. If there is any Writing Fail in this scene, it's Shepard's lines, not Ashley's. If Horizon had been an Alliance colony, Ashley would probably have been required to arrest Shepard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Shepard is going to start ME3 on trial. Yeah, that's right, Shepard has to face the music, so those who fantasize about navigating a player character in a 100% Wish Fulfillment Universe where other characters exist solely to be killed or to verbally fellate the self-insert character are going to be sorely disappointed.

Dude, chill. I purposely made a gamer versus character comparison and said that the VS had a very understandable reaction with the knowledge that they have.

And no, it wasn't rational. Based on what Ashley knows- that Shepard is on a mission to stop the Collectors, that they have in-game reasons to hate Cerberus (especially if you're a sole survivor who found Toombs), and should Shepard explain to them, that they were dead- the rational explanation would have to talked further about what the hell was going on.

And both Ashley and Kaidan admit that they had a strong, borderline violent reaction (as in intense in force, effect, etc.; severe; extreme: violent pain;violent cold per the dictionary) to Shepard's rebirth, and they admit to it:

I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. When I lost you two years ago, it tore me up. I prayed for you every day. I read a lot of Tennyson, thinking about you, just like I did when my dad passed. And then you came back, and it was like my prayers were answered. But I'm not who I was then, and neither are you.

I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can.

And Kaidan:

I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. I spent two years pulling myself back together after you went down with the Normandy. It took me a long time to get over my guilt for surviving and move on. I'd finally let my friends talk me into going out for drinks with a doctor on the Citadel. Nothing serious, but trying to let myself have a life again, you know?

...

But please be careful. I've watched too many people close to me die -- on Eden Prime, on Virmire, on Horizon, on the Normandy. I couldn't bear it if I lost you again. If you're still the woman I remember I know you'll find a way to stop these Collector attacks. But Cerberus is too dangerous to be trusted. Watch yourself.

Both apologise for their outbursts, and chalk it up to emotional intensity- not rational, but very understandable.

[HogarthHughes 3]

The fact that the aliens of the original Normandy (Garrus and Tali namely, Liara gave Shepard to Cerberus so she can't talk and Wrex doesn't even ask but I doubt he'd take it as a personal betrayal like the VS) trust Shepard enough even when he/she is working with a xenophobic terrorist organization but the VS doesn't certainly doesn't paint them in a positive light. Of course, one could also say that the aliens are too trusting of Shepard and not willing enough to go against their idol/mentor/friend/whatever even if they're doing something wrong. I personally didn't mind Horizon much, I can understand why Ashley would be distraught. It did tell me this though: The VS simply doesn't trust Shepard as much as the other companions do.  Though it is strange that the VS talks up Shepard more than any other character at first, then quickly calls him/her a traitor.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:54 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Shepard’s response is natural if you assume that the weight of her situation hasn’t really registered to her.  Admittedly,  this could be so. It would be difficult to get your head wrapped around the idea of resurrection. 

On the other hand,  I do think some of the PLAYER’S reactions have been strange.  It seems as if they have taken MASSIVE offence to a character displaying a personality outside of being Shepard’s lackey.  From the perspective of the VS Shepard has done a complete heel turn and is started working for “The Enemy.” 

Truth.

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

The fact that the aliens of the
original Normandy (Garrus and Tali namely, Liara gave Shepard to
Cerberus so she can't talk and Wrex doesn't even ask but I doubt he'd
take it as a personal betrayal like the VS) trust Shepard enough even
when he/she is working with a xenophobic terrorist organization but the
VS didn't certainly doesn't paint them in a positive light. Of course,
one could also say that the aliens are too trusting of Shepard and not
willing enough to go against their idol/mentor/friend/whatever even if
they're doing something wrong. I personally didn't mind Horizon much, I
can understand why Ashley would be distraught. It did tell me this
though: The VS simply doesn't trust Shepard as much as the other
companions do. Though it is strange that the VS talks up Shepard more
than any other character at first, then quickly calls him/her a
traitor.

Well, Wrex has a tendency not to give a sh*t, so I'm not too shocked to hear he doesn't care who Shep's working for. OTOH, Tali is absolutely having a bit of an OOC moment when she's like "Hi Shep! Good to see you! What, you're working for Space Hamas now? That's okay! Because I trust you!" So  in other words, I like it when characters do things other than mindlessly trust the protagonist because s/he's the protagonist.

[AngelicMachinery]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

The fact that the aliens of the original Normandy (Garrus and Tali namely, Liara gave Shepard to Cerberus so she can't talk and Wrex doesn't even ask but I doubt he'd take it as a personal betrayal like the VS) trust Shepard enough even when he/she is working with a xenophobic terrorist organization but the VS didn't certainly doesn't paint them in a positive light. Of course, one could also say that the aliens are too trusting of Shepard and not willing enough to go against their idol/mentor/friend/whatever even if they're doing something wrong. I personally didn't mind Horizon much, I can understand why Ashley would be distraught. It did tell me this though: The VS simply doesn't trust Shepard as much as the other companions do. Though it is strange that the VS talks up Shepard more than any other character at first, then quickly calls him/her a traitor.

Well lets look at the Alien's in question

Wrex:  Wrex has done some morally questionable and dubious things if he profits from it,  he is likely to take offense to Shepard doing the same thing.  It's hard for someone who was a mercenary to be particularly judgemental.

Garrus:  Garrus sees Shepard as some sort of incarnation of galactic perfection,  he isn't going to question his idol.  He's going to follow her/him to the ends of the earth, as long as Shepard helps him kill a person or two along the way.

Tali:       Poor Tali...  she just jumps ship because she wants to have a cut scene with Shepard in the captian's chambers.  Poor little fetish alien gone complete sex toy.

[Repearized Miranda]

Siansonea II wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

And for the record, I'm 29, and a female, and I don't like either VS.

28 and male here

I don't like Ashley for how she said what she said. I don't have a problem with WHY she said it. Ashley is most likely going to be with me in ME3. So for me, I'll let by gones be by gones.

So how should Ashley have said what she said?

"Hi Shepard! I thought you were dead! I'm so glad you're still alive! You look great! Have you been working out? Oh, and I see you have some new friends! Cerberus, I see. Yeah, we went through some stuff with Cerberus in the old days, didn't we? LOL. Yeah, good times. Admiral Kahoku's widow says hi, by the way. Oh, and I ran into Corporal Toombs the other day. Still having nightmares from when those Cerberus scientists were injecting him with thresher maw acid, but he says hi too! So yeah, I would totally go with you, but I really need to get back to the Citadel and continue my own mission, but that's really just so I can be in the next game—er, mission. It was SO good catching up with you Shepard, maybe next game—uh, mission—we can get together and pick up where we left off before Ilos, huh? I've got some new poems to share with you. Bye Shepard! Love you!"

Definitely, not all of that, but even that would have been better then what she did say. I get she was angry, but take Shepard's actions.

Elnora for instance: Some would have preferred just to threaten her (paragon) rather than shoot her (renegade). Obviously, the latter option is: "Shoot first, ask questions later." to which means that you don't get the answers you want due to being void explanation - regardless of how sensible it is.

This is what Ashley did. She "found" me and instead of asking questions - letting me explain - she just "shot me point blank." (You were dead! You betrayed us!) 

Now, if Ashley would have just threatened me (this option gave Elnora a chance to explain herself), I would have been fine with that. Did she do that? Hell no! Hell, Anderson hates Cerberus, too but he's still best-buds with Shepard. He's not blinded to his "loyality" due to position whereas Ashley clearly is! (I know Shepard makes the "you stabbed me in the back" comment, but it wasn't made with such immense hate as Ashley's comments were. This is why I felt Anderson's conversation was much better. He even says: "I don't like Cerberus, but I understand why you're with them." If he had said what Ashley did - heaven forbid, HOW he did - he would've gotten reamed also.

Modifié par Repearized Miranda, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:01 .

[Mykel54]

Frankly, i was more surprised that the other alien crew members have very little trouble with Shepard working for Cerberus. The only exception is Tali which i believe is one of the best written ME2 characters, but Garrus for example just say a few words and never bring it up again. I don´t mind what Ashley said on Horizon but it was a scene that deserved more time, just like they did with Liara in the shadow broker dlc. I am pretty sure that in ME3 there will be some kind of resolution (friendly i guess) to the horizon encounter.

[Siansonea]

Valentia X wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

That might be because we are, generally, not wrong- in the sense that game narrative, as dictacted by WoG, says we're not.  Cerberus is posed as a necessary evil in game and the only group willing to help you take on the Reapers, which is ultimately Shepard- everyone's Shepard- ultimate goal. In the narration of the universe, Ashley/Kaidan is wrong because Shepard, by dint of being the champion, has to be right, even if it's quickly approaching the moral event horizion for some RPers.

However, as I said before, I do believe they had a very understanding reaction and I don't blame them for being angry. I do find stupidity that the scene wasn't expanded enough for a proper explaination (although I also understand that it could have potentially paved the way for Shepard leaving Cerberus too early) and I do feel in the end, the VS flounced off without stopping for a moment of rational thought- possible control chip? undercover work? something else?.

So Ashley is supposed to know that she's a fictional character in a video game, and that Shepard is the player character/hero protagonist? Ashley's supposed to go along with Shepard, be a Shepard cheerleader, never question anything Shepard does, because she's a fictional character in a video game? Does anyone not see the fundamental disconnect here? Ashley is a person, she can only make decisions based on things she has directly experienced and observed, and everything she knows points to Shepard being a traitor. Yes, the "player" knows that Shepard is working for Cerberus for "the right reasons" (maybe?), but Ashley can't possibly know that. She can't hear the 'word of God' and shouldn't be judged on that basis. For that matter, the fact that Shepard doesn't question Cerberus is appalling, word of God or no. Is this thing on? *taps microphone*

As far as I'm concerned Ashley was VERY rational with Shepard, it's Shepard who heaps Herp upon Derp and expects everyone else to just go with it because he's the protagonist/player character/brick. If there is any Writing Fail in this scene, it's Shepard's lines, not Ashley's. If Horizon had been an Alliance colony, Ashley would probably have been required to arrest Shepard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Shepard is going to start ME3 on trial. Yeah, that's right, Shepard has to face the music, so those who fantasize about navigating a player character in a 100% Wish Fulfillment Universe where other characters exist solely to be killed or to verbally fellate the self-insert character are going to be sorely disappointed.

Dude, chill. I purposely made a gamer versus character comparison and said that the VS had a very understandable reaction with the knowledge that they have.

And no, it wasn't rational. Based on what Ashley knows- that Shepard is on a mission to stop the Collectors, that they have in-game reasons to hate Cerberus (especially if you're a sole survivor who found Toombs), and should Shepard explain to them, that they were dead- the rational explanation would have to talked further about what the hell was going on.

And both Ashley and Kaidan admit that they had a strong, borderline violent reaction (as in intense in force, effect, etc.; severe; extreme: violent pain;violent cold per the dictionary) to Shepard's rebirth, and they admit to it:
*snip*

First off, I'm not a "dude", so don't call me dude.

It's debatable whether Ashley has any real knowledge about the Collectors before the attack. Did Captain Anderson tell her anything about what Shepard told him? Did Shepard even bother to contact Anderson before Horizon? Did Tali give the Alliance a heads-up about the Collectors? Why is Ashley expected to automatically know that Shepard's motives, etc., haven't changed in the two years that Shepard has been incommunicado? Especially after Shepard makes the ridiculous claim that they were "dead" and "Cerberus rebuilt me".  Ashley wasn't born yesterday, Shepard.

What Ashley DOES know, is that she and Shepard spent a great deal of the time in ME1 battling people who had been Indoctrinated or were under the control of the Thorian. She also knows that Cerberus was experimenting on Thorian Creepers. So yeah, I'm thinking "Shepard is being mind-controlled" might have crossed her mind.

And who knows, maybe Shepard IS being mind-controlled, that would sure explain Shepard's Horizon behavior. 

[Siansonea]

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

And for the record, I'm 29, and a female, and I don't like either VS.

28 and male here

I don't like Ashley for how she said what she said. I don't have a problem with WHY she said it. Ashley is most likely going to be with me in ME3. So for me, I'll let by gones be by gones.

So how should Ashley have said what she said?

"Hi Shepard! I thought you were dead! I'm so glad you're still alive! You look great! Have you been working out? Oh, and I see you have some new friends! Cerberus, I see. Yeah, we went through some stuff with Cerberus in the old days, didn't we? LOL. Yeah, good times. Admiral Kahoku's widow says hi, by the way. Oh, and I ran into Corporal Toombs the other day. Still having nightmares from when those Cerberus scientists were injecting him with thresher maw acid, but he says hi too! So yeah, I would totally go with you, but I really need to get back to the Citadel and continue my own mission, but that's really just so I can be in the next game—er, mission. It was SO good catching up with you Shepard, maybe next game—uh, mission—we can get together and pick up where we left off before Ilos, huh? I've got some new poems to share with you. Bye Shepard! Love you!"

Definitely, not all of that, but even that would have been better then what she did say. I get she was angry, but take Shepard's actions.

Elnora for instance: Some would have preferred just to threaten her (paragon) rather than shoot her (renegade). Obviously, the latter option is: "Shoot first, ask questions later." to which means that you don't get the answers you want due to being void explanation - regardless of how sensible it is.

This is what Ashley did. She "found" me and instead of asking questions - letting me explain - she just "shot me point blank." (You were dead! You betrayed us!) 

Now, if Ashley would have just threatened me (this option gave Elnora a chance to explain herself), I would have been fine with that. Did she do that? Hell no! Hell, Anderson hates Cerberus, too but he's still best-buds with Shepard. He's not blinded to his "loyality" due to position whereas Ashley clearly is! (I know Shepard makes the "you stabbed me in the back" comment, but it wasn't made with such immense hate as Ashley's comments were. This is why I felt Anderson's conversation was much better. He even says: "I don't like Cerberus, but I understand why you're with them." If he had said what Ashley did - heaven forbid, HOW he did - he would've gotten reamed also.

And Captain Anderson knows a LOT more about what's actually going on than Ashley does. Of course his viewpoint is going to be tempered by that. But Anderson stonewalled Ashley, so she's basing her actions on a very small piece of the overall puzzle. That's not her fault. Everyone is so caught up in "need to know" politics that Ashley really doesn't have much to go on. She doesn't even know how small the piece of the puzzle she's seeing is until after Horizon. I'm sure Anderson debriefs her afterward, and she starts to rethink her previous conclusions, but at the time on Horizon, her statements make perfect sense from her point of view.

[Repearized Miranda]

Siansonea II wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<

That might be because we are, generally, not wrong- in the sense that game narrative, as dictacted by WoG, says we're not.  Cerberus is posed as a necessary evil in game and the only group willing to help you take on the Reapers, which is ultimately Shepard- everyone's Shepard- ultimate goal. In the narration of the universe, Ashley/Kaidan is wrong because Shepard, by dint of being the champion, has to be right, even if it's quickly approaching the moral event horizion for some RPers.

However, as I said before, I do believe they had a very understanding reaction and I don't blame them for being angry. I do find stupidity that the scene wasn't expanded enough for a proper explaination (although I also understand that it could have potentially paved the way for Shepard leaving Cerberus too early) and I do feel in the end, the VS flounced off without stopping for a moment of rational thought- possible control chip? undercover work? something else?.

So Ashley is supposed to know that she's a fictional character in a video game, and that Shepard is the player character/hero protagonist? Ashley's supposed to go along with Shepard, be a Shepard cheerleader, never question anything Shepard does, because she's a fictional character in a video game? Does anyone not see the fundamental disconnect here? Ashley is a person, she can only make decisions based on things she has directly experienced and observed, and everything she knows points to Shepard being a traitor. Yes, the "player" knows that Shepard is working for Cerberus for "the right reasons" (maybe?), but Ashley can't possibly know that. She can't hear the 'word of God' and shouldn't be judged on that basis. For that matter, the fact that Shepard doesn't question Cerberus is appalling, word of God or no. Is this thing on? *taps microphone*

As far as I'm concerned Ashley was VERY rational with Shepard, it's Shepard who heaps Herp upon Derp and expects everyone else to just go with it because he's the protagonist/player character/brick. If there is any Writing Fail in this scene, it's Shepard's lines, not Ashley's. If Horizon had been an Alliance colony, Ashley would probably have been required to arrest Shepard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Shepard is going to start ME3 on trial. Yeah, that's right, Shepard has to face the music, so those who fantasize about navigating a player character in a 100% Wish Fulfillment Universe where other characters exist solely to be killed or to verbally fellate the self-insert character are going to be sorely disappointed.

Can you honestly say that you'd take kindly to someone shooting off his/her mouth to you even if they have good reason for it? Ashley knew we (Shepard) wouldn't. that's why she "apologized" in the letter. Why is everyone jumping on Shepard as the NPCs - specifically Garrus that "alien" who befriended her - called her on it, Hell, Miranda said it was "typical Alliance attitude." Everybody said something against her viewpoint - not just Shepard. If Ashley's reasoning was rational, so was Shepard's and was the other NPCs'. If Ashley was NOT wrong, then why did she apologize?

Yes. Because I don't automatically assume that I'm Always Right. What a concept! Sometimes a really good friend will cuff you upside the head and tell you "hey, drugs/crime/Cerberus are bad, mmmkay?" A real friend will tell you when you're wrong. People who surround themselves with sycophants are doing themselves a great disservice, but if your world view doesn't allow for you to be mistaken/wrong/stupid, then I guess sycophants are your only option. <_<

I don't expect that either - especially, when I know I am wrong, but you shouldn't shoot off at the mouth even if I am. But since you brought up: Everybody with Shepard states how blind Ashley is to the Alliance. She can be wrong, too, you know? Sure, a real friend would tell you you are wrong, but they wouldn't throw it in your face either appearing to begrudge you for it. That is what Ashley did and that was wrong. Anderson was more reasonable giving his view regarding the same conversation.

[Raiil]

Would you rather I call you chick? No? Fine.

The VS (since they're written as as being interchangeable at this point) should have dug deeper at this point. When something appears to have gone off the rails, the rational thing to does not include getting so mightily pissed off and bouncing without time for an actual discussion of what the hell is going on.

Like I said, it's an understandable reaction- I'm not saying I, in real life, would be acting any differently- and pretty much a given considering the crap Cerberus has pulled, but understandable emotional reaction doesn't equate to rational reaction. Important information that could have been relayed to the few who actually know what the hell is actually going on. Neither Shepard nor the VS are given a chance in-game to really explain themselves, which is a failure on the part of the Hand of God, but it's the VS who bounces out before choosing to dig a little due to emotional distress.

[Repearized Miranda]

Siansonea II wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

And for the record, I'm 29, and a female, and I don't like either VS.

28 and male here

I don't like Ashley for how she said what she said. I don't have a problem with WHY she said it. Ashley is most likely going to be with me in ME3. So for me, I'll let by gones be by gones.

So how should Ashley have said what she said?

"Hi Shepard! I thought you were dead! I'm so glad you're still alive! You look great! Have you been working out? Oh, and I see you have some new friends! Cerberus, I see. Yeah, we went through some stuff with Cerberus in the old days, didn't we? LOL. Yeah, good times. Admiral Kahoku's widow says hi, by the way. Oh, and I ran into Corporal Toombs the other day. Still having nightmares from when those Cerberus scientists were injecting him with thresher maw acid, but he says hi too! So yeah, I would totally go with you, but I really need to get back to the Citadel and continue my own mission, but that's really just so I can be in the next game—er, mission. It was SO good catching up with you Shepard, maybe next game—uh, mission—we can get together and pick up where we left off before Ilos, huh? I've got some new poems to share with you. Bye Shepard! Love you!"

Definitely, not all of that, but even that would have been better then what she did say. I get she was angry, but take Shepard's actions.

Elnora for instance: Some would have preferred just to threaten her (paragon) rather than shoot her (renegade). Obviously, the latter option is: "Shoot first, ask questions later." to which means that you don't get the answers you want due to being void explanation - regardless of how sensible it is.

This is what Ashley did. She "found" me and instead of asking questions - letting me explain - she just "shot me point blank." (You were dead! You betrayed us!) 

Now, if Ashley would have just threatened me (this option gave Elnora a chance to explain herself), I would have been fine with that. Did she do that? Hell no! Hell, Anderson hates Cerberus, too but he's still best-buds with Shepard. He's not blinded to his "loyality" due to position whereas Ashley clearly is! (I know Shepard makes the "you stabbed me in the back" comment, but it wasn't made with such immense hate as Ashley's comments were. This is why I felt Anderson's conversation was much better. He even says: "I don't like Cerberus, but I understand why you're with them." If he had said what Ashley did - heaven forbid, HOW he did - he would've gotten reamed also.

And Captain Anderson knows a LOT more about what's actually going on than Ashley does. Of course his viewpoint is going to be tempered by that. But Anderson stonewalled Ashley, so she's basing her actions on a very small piece of the overall puzzle. That's not her fault. Everyone is so caught up in "need to know" politics that Ashley really doesn't have much to go on. She doesn't even know how small the piece of the puzzle she's seeing is until after Horizon. I'm sure Anderson debriefs her afterward, and she starts to rethink her previous conclusions, but at the time on Horizon, her statements make perfect sense from her point of view.

ITA with you, but shooting off at the mouth certain didn't help things. The "I may not know everything, but I know you are a traitor" is beyond asinine logic. No more asinine than the likewise factions sweeping the Reaper threats under the rug! They don't know everything either, but have the nerve to be snarky with me. AYFK?