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Did any one lose respect for ashley after horizon


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#201
AngelicMachinery

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iakus wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

She apologized because I expect bioware realized the **** STORM that would develop when a character showed a back bone to Shepard.  The main character isn’t allowed to be questioned only worshipped.  I think they were right, because look at the problems people are having with a character expressing themselves instead of getting on their knees and expressing their devotion to the divine Shepard.

I personally think the apology is stupid,   and in a good deal of my play throughs I rarely receive it.  It just makes the VS look like they’re still holding a candle for a character who in their eyes sold their soul. 

People say a lot about Trust,  but,  oddly enough Kaidan/Ash were right about Cerberus in the end and yet, people still can’t admit that perhaps Space Jesus might have made the wrong choice in snuggling up with TIM.  (He is IRRESTIBLE so I can understand some Shepard’s selling out.)


So..where's Wrex's apology?




Wrex bows to shepard immediatly if your paragon/renegade or got his armor or you kill him.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 03 juillet 2011 - 07:09 .


#202
Repearized Miranda

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AngelicMachinery wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

Given all the BS, they pulled? Who is Ashley to talk? Cerberus did this and that, but you're with them and staying? You did the same Ash! You're as much of a kiss-ass as I. Call a spade a spade, damn it!!

Shepard's trying to save a galaxy and clearly getting no help! The galaxy needs all the help it can get. If that means "working with the enemy," so be it! Most times, that is what has to be done or that saying wouldn't exist! Watching ships pass isn't much help - especially not when it's a Reaper one!


Yes, because a government institution without 100% complete information is totally equivalent to Space Hamas (if Hamas also dipped into mad science.) The point is that Ashley doesn't know what the player knows. All she sees is Shep working for the terrorist organization she has reason to suspect may have been involved with the attack on Horizon. It makes sense in context of the story that she'd be ticked. Of course, I can forgive people for being shocked when this happens because Bioware almost never does stuff like this.


Not that I disagree, but I'd take Jack's resentment over the VSs and they've actually done something to her than either of them. Put Ashley through what Jack did and she can spat venom til we are no more. Until then, fk off! You had no problem saying I did!


Ashley has seen what Cerberus has done,  your point is invalid.


Shepard has seen what the Alliance and Council have NOT done and what they aren't willing to do! I'm suppposed to save the galaxy all alone while you all sit on your asses and look stupid? Hell no! If you don't like it, KMA because I am done kissing yours!! We're all fighting (I hope) for the same damn thing here. What irks most players is that everybody (in-game) is pushing their own agendas on Shepard and that is asinine!

#203
Siansonea

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iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

What do you mean Shepard didn't lie? All that business about being dead, and then being "rebuilt" by Cerberus? We were supposed to believe that line of hooey? Ha ha, good one Shepard. You really had me going there for a second. You do know that dying-and-coming-back-to-life is impossible, right? Ashley's not an idiot, Shepard. When Shepard starts telling the truth, maybe Ashley will hear him out, but she's not going to get anything out of him in a smokey battle zone while he's flanked by his Cerberus handlers.


Odd, my Shepard said that he was "in a coma for two years" while Cerberus rebuilt him.   Not exactly the truth, but way more believable than "dead"

Besides, Ash has seen and done a number of incredible things around Shepard:

The beacon

Fighting through armies of geth, pirates, mercs, and yes even Cerberus cells

A ginormous plant that's been around since the days of thee Protheans and has mind control powers

Saw the rachni queen freed (Ash said it wasn't a good idea, but stood by me, so take that those that say "Miranda stood by me but Ash didn't") Not to mention battling rachni across several worlds (thanks again, Cerberus)

Volunteered for a dangerous assignment on Virmire, and nearly died, only to have Shepard swoop in and save her.

Helped steal the Alliance's most advanced warship from the Citadel to take it to a lost planet called Ilos 

Drove a Mako through a mass relay

Pretty much the entire Battle of the CItadel

So seeing Shepard fighting alongside Cerberus doesn't make one think this might be another "crazy Shepard situation"?  That maybe there's a story behind it?  That maybe, just maybe, Shepard is doing something to stop the Reapers he'd been telling everyone about?  Remember, Ash is one of maybe a half dozen people in the galaxy who knows(and believes)  the whole story about Shepard's visions and the Reapers.


Now YOU bring up some good points. :wizard:

I see it as just too much time having passed, and too many unanswered questions, and too much bad blood with Cerberus. Yes, Shepard has been at the center of some amazing situations, but his luck is bound to run out some time, right? He's not some invincible hero in some epic space opera, he's just a man, and a man can be brought low by circumstances and by people. If the coma story is true—well, what ELSE was Cerberus doing during that time to Shepard? How can Shepard be sure he's still the man he thinks he is? Why did it take two years to revive him from a coma? And how can I get straight answers to those questions with Cerberus goons forming the Peanut Gallery?

#204
AngelicMachinery

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Repearized Miranda wrote...


Shepard has seen what the Alliance and Council have NOT done and what they aren't willing to do! I'm suppposed to save the galaxy all alone while you all sit on your asses and look stupid? Hell no! If you don't like it, KMA because I am done kissing yours!! We're all fighting (I hope) for the same damn thing here. What irks most players is that everybody (in-game) is pushing their own agendas on Shepard and that is asinine!


I don't see what this has to do with Ashley?

#205
Repearized Miranda

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iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So how should Ashley have said what she said?

"Hi Shepard! I thought you were dead! I'm so glad you're still alive! You look great! Have you been working out? Oh, and I see you have some new friends! Cerberus, I see. Yeah, we went through some stuff with Cerberus in the old days, didn't we? LOL. Yeah, good times. Admiral Kahoku's widow says hi, by the way. Oh, and I ran into Corporal Toombs the other day. Still having nightmares from when those Cerberus scientists were injecting him with thresher maw acid, but he says hi too! So yeah, I would totally go with you, but I really need to get back to the Citadel and continue my own mission, but that's really just so I can be in the next game—er, mission. It was SO good catching up with you Shepard, maybe next game—uh, mission—we can get together and pick up where we left off before Ilos, huh? I've got some new poems to share with you. Bye Shepard! Love you!" :wub:


How about:

Ash: Cerberus?  Shepard you saw the things that they did!  How can you even think about working with those terrorists?

Miranda:  Hmph, typical Alliance reaction

Shepard:  I don't like it either, Ash.  I remember those experiments we saw Cerberus performing.  But for right now they're the only ones opposing the Collectors and preparing for the Reapers.  I fully expect them to betray me at some point.  That's why I need people like you with me.  People I can trust to have my back.

Miranda:  Hello?  Cerberus operative!  Standing right here!

Ash:  I'm sorry Shepard.  I know you think you're doing the right thing here.  But I can't follow you this time.  I'm still an Alliance soldier, with duties and obligations I can't just put aside.  I have to report this to Anderson.  I'll tell him what I saw here.  And what you said about the Collectors.  Maybe he can get something done on a higher level.  In the meantime... be careful...  You know what the road to Hell is paved with, right?

Shepard:  Good intentions

Ash:  Exactly.  Take care, skipper.  Stay alive out there.  Someday soon I want to hear the whole story.

Miranda:  Why am I even here?


haha! You know, I'm shocked that they didn't have Miranda (or Jacob) jump in at every "anti-Cerberus" comment!! (I mean, Garrus jumped in - a more or less "respected" alien on Horizon)

#206
Repearized Miranda

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AngelicMachinery wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...


Shepard has seen what the Alliance and Council have NOT done and what they aren't willing to do! I'm suppposed to save the galaxy all alone while you all sit on your asses and look stupid? Hell no! If you don't like it, KMA because I am done kissing yours!! We're all fighting (I hope) for the same damn thing here. What irks most players is that everybody (in-game) is pushing their own agendas on Shepard and that is asinine!


I don't see what this has to do with Ashley?


Erm, isn't she kissing the Alliance's ass? If it's Alliance, it's her.

#207
AngelicMachinery

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Repearized Miranda wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...


Shepard has seen what the Alliance and Council have NOT done and what they aren't willing to do! I'm suppposed to save the galaxy all alone while you all sit on your asses and look stupid? Hell no! If you don't like it, KMA because I am done kissing yours!! We're all fighting (I hope) for the same damn thing here. What irks most players is that everybody (in-game) is pushing their own agendas on Shepard and that is asinine!


I don't see what this has to do with Ashley?


Erm, isn't she kissing the Alliance's ass? If it's Alliance, it's her.


So,  simply by being a responcible soldier she's planting her lips firmly on the alliance's ass?  One could say than that Shepard has been slurping on TIM since the ressurection.

#208
Iakus

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Siansonea II wrote...

I see it as just too much time having passed, and too many unanswered questions, and too much bad blood with Cerberus. Yes, Shepard has been at the center of some amazing situations, but his luck is bound to run out some time, right? He's not some invincible hero in some epic space opera, he's just a man, and a man can be brought low by circumstances and by people. If the coma story is true—well, what ELSE was Cerberus doing during that time to Shepard? How can Shepard be sure he's still the man he thinks he is? Why did it take two years to revive him from a coma? And how can I get straight answers to those questions with Cerberus goons forming the Peanut Gallery?


I do admit, the "what if Cerberus is controlling you?" line is the one part of the confrontation with Ash that gave me pause.  But the rest was so badly done I started to wonder if both of them had control chips in their brains.  Thir cognitive functions sure seemed impaired...


#209
Repearized Miranda

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AngelicMachinery wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...


Shepard has seen what the Alliance and Council have NOT done and what they aren't willing to do! I'm suppposed to save the galaxy all alone while you all sit on your asses and look stupid? Hell no! If you don't like it, KMA because I am done kissing yours!! We're all fighting (I hope) for the same damn thing here. What irks most players is that everybody (in-game) is pushing their own agendas on Shepard and that is asinine!


I don't see what this has to do with Ashley?


Erm, isn't she kissing the Alliance's ass? If it's Alliance, it's her.


So,  simply by being a responcible soldier she's planting her lips firmly on the alliance's ass?  One could say than that Shepard has been slurping on TIM since the ressurection.


ITA, but see, Shepard gets pissed because of having been jerked around by him. No one here can deny that that's what he did! Having said this, who's to say the Alliance has or hasn't jerked Ashley or Kaidan around, but they too take the Alliance's crap and would still take it. Shepard is not as blind to Cerberus as Ash/Kaidan "thinks" she is! It doesn't make how they said what they said right just because "it's more personal for them." (Shepard saves one of them and this is the thanks s/he gets for trying to do so again? YMBK!)

#210
PMC65

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JamesStark wrote...

*snip* Why is this targeted only at Ash? Kaidan does the same thing.


I guess femsheps and gaysheps are less emotional or offended when their lover/wanna-be lover Kaidan has doubts? They* either forgive him or just move on .... Hello Garrus, Thane or Jacob! Image IPB 

Malesheps aren't use to being questioned or challenged and it hurts their widdle feelings. So they take their models, fish & hamsters and storm off into Miranda, Jack or Tali's arms ... but still **** & moan about Ash who actually backhanded them and called them on the carpet for working with Cerberus.
She is truly evil and must die!         Image IPB                           

Seriously, I have no idea why there always seems to be these types of thread about Ash. It will be interesting to see how people respond to her after playing ME3. One thing you can say about the character, you either hate her or love her.

*femsheps ... sorry gaysheps but you are still alone Image IPB ... until ME3 - Oorah!

#211
DaveExclamationMarkYognaut

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iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I see it as just too much time having passed, and too many unanswered questions, and too much bad blood with Cerberus. Yes, Shepard has been at the center of some amazing situations, but his luck is bound to run out some time, right? He's not some invincible hero in some epic space opera, he's just a man, and a man can be brought low by circumstances and by people. If the coma story is true—well, what ELSE was Cerberus doing during that time to Shepard? How can Shepard be sure he's still the man he thinks he is? Why did it take two years to revive him from a coma? And how can I get straight answers to those questions with Cerberus goons forming the Peanut Gallery?


I do admit, the "what if Cerberus is controlling you?" line is the one part of the confrontation with Ash that gave me pause.  But the rest was so badly done I started to wonder if both of them had control chips in their brains.  Thir cognitive functions sure seemed impaired...



Honestly, I was seriously expecting that Shep would actually have a control chip on my first playthrough. "control chip + Miranda lying her a** off" makes a lot more sense than "Shep having an almost game-long OOC moment + Miranda telling the truth."

#212
Raiil

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PMC65 wrote...

JamesStark wrote...

*snip* Why is this targeted only at Ash? Kaidan does the same thing.


I guess femsheps and gaysheps are less emotional or offended when their lover/wanna-be lover Kaidan has doubts? They* either forgive him or just move on .... Hello Garrus, Thane or Jacob! Image IPB 

Malesheps aren't use to being questioned or challenged and it hurts their widdle feelings. So they take their models, fish & hamsters and storm off into Miranda, Jack or Tali's arms ... but still **** & moan about Ash who actually backhanded them and called them on the carpet for working with Cerberus.
She is truly evil and must die!         Image IPB                           

Seriously, I have no idea why there always seems to be these types of thread about Ash. It will be interesting to see how people respond to her after playing ME3. One thing you can say about the character, you either hate her or love her.

*femsheps ... sorry gaysheps but you are still alone Image IPB ... until ME3 - Oorah!


I've only saved Ashley once- I play femshep who romanced Kaidan- but I thought her letter was much better handled. I'm actually surprised at how many people do pin this on Ashley, although it might be her general demeanor (and, as always, YMMV) from game one. I thought Ashley sounded more confused and angry than Kaidan, who just sounded ragey (imho).

#213
Iakus

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PMC65 wrote...

Malesheps aren't use to being questioned or challenged and it hurts their widdle feelings. So they take their models, fish & hamsters and storm off into Miranda, Jack or Tali's arms ... but still **** & moan about Ash who actually backhanded them and called them on the carpet for working with Cerberus.
She is truly evil and must die!         Image IPB                           

Seriously, I have no idea why there always seems to be these types of thread about Ash. It will be interesting to see how people respond to her after playing ME3. One thing you can say about the character, you either hate her or love her.


Me, I have found Ash to be my favorite of all the squaddies in both games.  Thus I end up saving her in almost all my playthroughs, and thus it's almost always her I encounter on Horizon.  And yes who I end up romancing, and staying loyal to, despite Bioware's attempts to separate Shep from his (or her) ME1 romances.

#214
Guest_laecraft_*

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Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<


I saw the light. I'm the one who's wrong here. Why the hell am I aiding the human colonies? Who cares about humanity? Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

I will go and tell TIM that I would never work with him, because it's beneath me, and because Ashley has a point. Then I will sit in front of my terminal, chewing popcorn, and listening to the reports of the human colonies disappearing. Listening to the batarians gloating about how humans are unable to defend their own colonies. Listening to the Council's regrets how they're unable to provide help because humans brought it upon themselves when they went to the Terminus Systems. Listening to the Alliance's silence.

But hey, at least I'm loyal to the Alliance. At least I'm not a traitor. At least I'm not evil. That makes me feel good about myself!

#215
Mr.House

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Nope.

#216
Ryzaki

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Yes. All of the respect I had for them went down the tubes. Right where their respect for Shepard went.

#217
DaveExclamationMarkYognaut

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laecraft wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<


I saw the light. I'm the one who's wrong here. Why the hell am I aiding the human colonies? Who cares about humanity? Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

I will go and tell TIM that I would never work with him, because it's beneath me, and because Ashley has a point. Then I will sit in front of my terminal, chewing popcorn, and listening to the reports of the human colonies disappearing. Listening to the batarians gloating about how humans are unable to defend their own colonies. Listening to the Council's regrets how they're unable to provide help because humans brought it upon themselves when they went to the Terminus Systems. Listening to the Alliance's silence.

But hey, at least I'm loyal to the Alliance. At least I'm not a traitor. At least I'm not evil. That makes me feel good about myself!


Or, you know, go back to the council/alliance, and tell TIM "thanks for the ship, suckaaaa!" Or work as a double agent. I'm actually a little surprised these weren't options in ME2 because they would change very little of the game's actual content.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 03 juillet 2011 - 09:48 .


#218
Ianamus

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No. If it was the other way around and I found out that she was the one working for Cerberus I would probably have acted siilarly to how she did, so I can't really judge her for doing the same. I can understand how it would be different if she was your LI though.

#219
ladyvader

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iakus wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Malesheps aren't use to being questioned or challenged and it hurts their widdle feelings. So they take their models, fish & hamsters and storm off into Miranda, Jack or Tali's arms ... but still **** & moan about Ash who actually backhanded them and called them on the carpet for working with Cerberus.
She is truly evil and must die!         Image IPB                           

Seriously, I have no idea why there always seems to be these types of thread about Ash. It will be interesting to see how people respond to her after playing ME3. One thing you can say about the character, you either hate her or love her.


Me, I have found Ash to be my favorite of all the squaddies in both games.  Thus I end up saving her in almost all my playthroughs, and thus it's almost always her I encounter on Horizon.  And yes who I end up romancing, and staying loyal to, despite Bioware's attempts to separate Shep from his (or her) ME1 romances.

But you can break it off with your ME2 LI and the picture of your ME1 LI will come back up.  I knew you could do that with Liara, but I thought that was just because you could continue the romance in the LotSB.  But I checked it out today and it works for the Ashley/Kaidan as well.

#220
PMC65

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ladyvader wrote...

iakus wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Malesheps aren't use to being questioned or challenged and it hurts their widdle feelings. So they take their models, fish & hamsters and storm off into Miranda, Jack or Tali's arms ... but still **** & moan about Ash who actually backhanded them and called them on the carpet for working with Cerberus.
She is truly evil and must die!         Image IPB                           

Seriously, I have no idea why there always seems to be these types of thread about Ash. It will be interesting to see how people respond to her after playing ME3. One thing you can say about the character, you either hate her or love her.


Me, I have found Ash to be my favorite of all the squaddies in both games.  Thus I end up saving her in almost all my playthroughs, and thus it's almost always her I encounter on Horizon.  And yes who I end up romancing, and staying loyal to, despite Bioware's attempts to separate Shep from his (or her) ME1 romances.


But you can break it off with your ME2 LI and the picture of your ME1 LI will come back up.  I knew you could do that with Liara, but I thought that was just because you could continue the romance in the LotSB.  But I checked it out today and it works for the Ashley/Kaidan as well.


Is this after you do the 'deed' with them or before? My picture will not pop back up once my Shepards go all the way or after the SM. 

#221
Ryzaki

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...There's no way to break it off with a ME1 LI without moving on to someone else is there? I hope ME3 lets you break up with the VS without having to romance someone else.

#222
Sarcastic Tasha

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ladyvader wrote...

But you can break it off with your ME2 LI and the picture of your ME1 LI will come back up.  I knew you could do that with Liara, but I thought that was just because you could continue the romance in the LotSB.  But I checked it out today and it works for the Ashley/Kaidan as well.


I always thought it was odd Shep would turn the picture face down. I thought why not swap it for a picture of Thane if it was bugging her that much. But then after dumping Thane it all made sense because the picture was back up again, it was like she knew she might change her mind so didn't commit to actually getting rid of the picture.

#223
Zarathiel

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After the **** both the Council AND Alliance pulled on us before Ilos in ME1, both she and Kaidan should know better.

#224
ISpeakTheTruth

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The first time I heard her dialogue on Horizon I thought she was bi-polar.

She starts out calling you a God and then ends up calling you a traitor.

Shepard: You dare talk to God like that? Blasphemer!!!

#225
knightnblu

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Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it seems like for a lot of you self-insert types, it comes down to an over-identification with Shepard. At no point do you ask yourselves "What if I'M the one who's wrong here? What if Ashley actually has a point? Why the hell AM I just going along with the Illusive Man?" Shepard never questions his own Derp Quotient. It's all "you're being mean to me Ashley! GTFO!" <_<



I disagree. I am with Cerberus because humanity is under the gun. I don't trust TIM as far as I could throw the Normandy and I expect a knife in my back at Cerberus' earliest opportunity. I tried to enlist the aid of the Council, but they refused. The Alliance doesn't believe in the threat to humanity either and is also doing nothing about the missing colonists as even Admiral Hackett admits. That just leaves me.
 
I was a corpscicle in space floating around until somebody picked my carcass from space and gave my remains to Cerberus. I wake up to a rolling assault and have no idea where I am, what is going on, or where my friends are, so I do the only thing that I can do and that is to survive. I meet TIM and he gives me the blah, blah about threats to humanity and I go and check it out and guess what? TIM is at least telling the truth about that.
 
Again, I have no choice. The only choice that I do have is to split and leave tens and perhaps hundreds of thousands more colonists to vanish or I work with the only people willing to fight the collectors. Anderson doesn't tell me anything and won't even tell me where Ash is or what she is up to. He does however keep me from being crucified by the Council and I guess that's something.
 
I don't like Cerberus and I damn sure don't trust them. I shut down every Cerberus op I came across as a Spectre and I fully anticipate ending TIM at the earliest opportunity on general principle. He and his organization are dangerous and rogue and they need to be stopped. The last straw for me was Overlord, because I won't allow any more innocents to be tortured by their hands if I can help it.
 
Therefore, I know exactly who I am and what my motivations are and I did what I needed to do for the greater good. I am not happy about doing it that way and I would gladly have left Cerberus if given the option, but I had no choice despite my best efforts. Ditto Arrival and 300K+ dead Batarians, and ditto LotSB and a rogue Spectre who was unwittingly aiding the Reapers.
 
Mass Effect drives home some very simple themes. First, you don't always get to do what you want to do. Sometimes you have to improvise. Second, things don't always transpire the way that you want them to and sacrifices must be made in order to accomplish your mission. Third, your friends won't always be your friends and one day you might have to let them go or kill them. Ash had two years+ to mature into the person she is in ME3. Because of her waffling on Horizon, she is no longer my LI.
 
I don't expect BW to make it easy for Ashley to fall into your arms again. They are going to make you work for it. You are going to have to win her trust all over again and bend over backward to kiss your own behind. If you are that limber then be my guest, but I am not going to do that because to me, it would be adding insult to injury.
 
I appreciate that there are differing opinions and I respect them, but please don't tell me that my own personal evaluation of the situation is flawed because I didn't question my own motives. If you wish to be Ashley's BFF, then go ahead and good for you. I choose not to. As for "over identification" with Shepard, If I play him then I am him. Just as an actor becomes his character on stage. That is what we call "game immersion." It is why we have large monitors, dark rooms, and surround sound in order "get into" the gaming environment. In a shooter, you don't immerse as much, but with an RPG the immersion is greater because the emotional investment of the player is usually higher.
 
In an RPG, emotion is king. Good emotions, bad emotions, and everything in between are all fair game for the RPG and that is why a great story is necessary in order to make the player care about the events that are transpiring and the characters who are performing the actions. It is also why romance is so dicey, because romance relies on a strong connection created between the player and the virtual character. The reactions are not as important because the goal is to make you feel something. Therefore, my reaction to Ashley is just as valid as your reaction to Ashley. Two different people, two different results and neither is wrong.
 
At least, that is how I see it.