21 réponses à ce sujet

[Stardusk78]

I have always had her loyal so I never had this scene. My question: is it true?

[Stardusk78]

No one?

[TomY90]

I heard that is not true no matter what she lets you blow it up even if she is not loyal to you.

and I believe I am right considering every single piece of dialogue or audio anything can be found on youtube as video evidence to it all and there is nothing showing that.

If there was such an ending it would be on youtube by fans showing it

Modifié par TomY90, 03 juillet 2011 - 01:05 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

That would've been an interesting twist... but yeah I don't believe that's available. Every squad member sides with the destroying of the base (it doesn't matter how they are or what you've done).

[Sebby]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

That would've been an interesting twist... but yeah I don't believe that's available. Every squad member sides with the destroying of the base (it doesn't matter how they are or what you've done).

That's sadly true, it turns out half of the squad are jokesters.

[KevShep]

The fact that everybody in your team is against you keeping the base is probably the developers way of giving you a hint that it... is.... actually bad to keep the base.

[Sebby]

KevShep wrote...

The fact that everybody in your team is against you keeping the base is probably the developers way of giving you a hint that it... is.... actually bad to keep the base.

Nah, it's just bad inconsistant writing. It's nonsensical that half of the squad who favored keeping it have a mind crush against it afterwords and scold Shepard for being an idiot.

[Raven4030]

Actually, several members of the squad such as Legion, Mordin, and I think Garrus (just to name a few) will tell you that you should keep the base if they are in your squad when you're setting it to either explode or simply purge the base of life. Of course, after the mission every one of them expresses approval at destroying the base and unease at handing it over to the illusive man.

I honestly didn't like that though because as you said, this seems like the developers telling you that destroying the base is the 'right' path and saving it is the 'wrong' path. Guess it's not as bad as creating the illusion of choice, but then giving you a game over for choosing 'wrong', but still a little irritating. Especially with regards to Mordin:

"Making it so 999/1000 Krogan babies are stillborn from now until the forseeable future was absolutely necessary for the survival of both them and the galaxy. But you should have destroyed that base with the valuable technology that will give us an edge against the Reapers. Bad Shephard, no treat for you."

Modifié par Raven4030, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:36 .

[Sebby]

Raven4030 wrote...

Actually, several members of the squad such as Legion, Mordin, and I think Garrus (just to name a few) will tell you that you should keep the base if they are in your squad when you're setting it to either explode or simply purge the base of life. Of course, after the mission every one of them expresses approval at destroying the base and unease at handing it over to the illusive man.

I honestly didn't like that though because as you said, this seems like the developers telling you that destroying the base is the 'right' path and saving it is the 'wrong' path. Guess it's not as bad as creating the illusion of choice, but then giving you a game over for choosing 'wrong', but still a little irritating. Especially with regards to Mordin:

"Making it so 999/1000 Krogan babies are stillborn from now until the forseeable future was absolutely necessary for the survival of both them and the galaxy. But you should have destroyed that base with the valuable technology that will give us an edge against the Reapers. Bad Shephard, no treat for you."

Indeed, here's the quotes of all the squadmates from when the decision is being made.

*Bolded those who favored keeping it*

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base, then all these people died for nothing.
Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.
Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user - just like Collectors.
Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.
Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?
Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.
Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand - using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.
Mordin: Hmm... Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.
Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.
Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.
Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.
Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty - you use it.

The worst part of the whole mind crush thing is that it makes characters like Mordin and Grunt into total morons. They complain about Cerberus getting the base despite being in one of their operations all along, not only that but Grunt was completely apathetic about working with them during that whole time and Mordin was even eager about it(he also endorsed TIM's collector ship plan).

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Nice, never heard all of the squadmate stances before (heard some but not all).

That is a rather large change of mind when the epilogue rolled around.  So it's either bad writing, favoritism to a particular choice... or a mix of both.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:01 .

[Sebby]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Nice, never heard all of the squadmate stances before (heard some but not all).

That is a rather large change of mind when the epilogue rolled around.

It really seems like Bioware had two different writers who never had contact with each other write those scenes.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seboist wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Nice, never heard all of the squadmate stances before (heard some but not all).

That is a rather large change of mind when the epilogue rolled around.

It really seems like Bioware had two different writers who never had contact with each other write those scenes.

Still seems to me that (be it time/budget concerns or they just weren't in the mood to flesh out outcomes to equal extents) the games generally favor the Paragon decisions...perhaps Bioware focuses on the Paragon outcomes first and the rest come in if they have time.  (I'm not saying that to turn this thread into another debate on the topic though)

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:22 .

[KevShep]

Seboist wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The fact that everybody in your team is against you keeping the base is probably the developers way of giving you a hint that it... is.... actually bad to keep the base.

Nah, it's just bad inconsistant writing. It's nonsensical that half of the squad who favored keeping it have a mind crush against it afterwords and scold Shepard for being an idiot.

If some decisions in the game are bad ones that effect the out come of ME3 then it would make sence that the devs would leave hints about the big decisions and the one involving the base is a really big one. If cerberus is working for the reapers and you did keep the base then I do think that saving the base was a bad idea. btw off topic a little.....if cerberis just for some reason happends to not be with the reapers then whats stopping the reapers from retaking the base? All they have to do is make it to one relay and they can get to the omaga 4 relay in minutes/hours.

[Raven4030]

If you want a player to make one choice instead of another in a game you shouldn't even bother with giving them the choice at all. I mean, it's not as bad as invisible walls in an exploration game or a game over for making the 'wrong' choice, but it is a bit jarring to have every character say 'you were wrong and made a wrong choice', especially when, as stated previously, half those characters were encouraging you to make the decision they now knock you for. I mean, what did they think would happen if you save the base? That the council would show up and say "we believe you and forgive any wrongdoing that happened Shephard! And we'll use this base completely ethically and responsibly". They had to know that saving the base meant "handing it over to Cerberus". Even if they didn't think Cerberus would get the base, they had to realize that no group would be willing to take it slow and responsibly with all the possibilities the available tech offers.

[KevShep]

Raven4030 wrote...

If you want a player to make one choice instead of another in a game you shouldn't even bother with giving them the choice at all. I mean, it's not as bad as invisible walls in an exploration game or a game over for making the 'wrong' choice, but it is a bit jarring to have every character say 'you were wrong and made a wrong choice', especially when, as stated previously, half those characters were encouraging you to make the decision they now knock you for. I mean, what did they think would happen if you save the base? That the council would show up and say "we believe you and forgive any wrongdoing that happened Shephard! And we'll use this base completely ethically and responsibly". They had to know that saving the base meant "handing it over to Cerberus". Even if they didn't think Cerberus would get the base, they had to realize that no group would be willing to take it slow and responsibly with all the possibilities the available tech offers.

I understand where your coming from but lets face it there are going to be bad desisions in all three games that effect the total out come of the game. The devs are not trying to get you to make certain choices because the game revolves around you. If you do pick wrong choices then that will be bad for you but does not mean that you will fail it just means that you will not have as good as an ending as you would if you made the right choices. Question is which ones are the right choices?

The game devs do something in ME2 that I thought was clever. They make cerberus the bad guys in ME1 with the stuff there doing like being behind the Akuze incident that almost got you killed. Then they bring you back from the dead and they get you to work for them. The game devs really make you think about who your friends really are and who your enemys are. They keep cerberus in the shadows so you really cant tell if there the bad guys and you have to make a choice....one that will help you or one that will cause you pain.

Raven4030 said... "If you want a player to make one choice instead of another in a game you shouldn't even bother with giving them the choice at all."      If every decision in a game does not have consequences then there is no reason ether to have decisions in a game. The point is the game ......really......makes you think...."Is this the right thing to do?"  these decisions effect the out come of the whole story and it makes sence that even in real life there are clues to what is right and what is wrong just like in Mass Effect.  If there decisions did not matter then there would be no build up to ME3. Casey Hudson says that there will be bad decisions in the games, its comes down to....what are you going to sacrifice for the greater good. The more bad decisions you make the more this is going to be true!......Which means if you make bad choices then you will have to sacrifice something in order to get victory.

Modifié par KevShep, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:28 .

[Raven4030]

I don't mind there being consequences, I'm just saying don't punish the player by arbitrarily deciding one option is 'bad' and the other 'good' without giving any hints beforehand. And ESPECIALLY don't make people go "you really should do <x>" and then later be like "Oh, I was joking, couldn't you tell? I WAS going to give you a cookie if you did <y> instead but now? No cookie for you lulz." It's jarring and ruins the story, and if keeping the base means my renegades will have a tougher time while my paragons get to breeze through? Then it's just bad design. I'm fine if you change the story around, make it so people hate Shephard more or whatever, just don't make the game more difficult or make it so taking the Renegade path gives you the "bad" ending while paragons enjoy the "good" ending.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I think positive and negative outcomes are good for the series... but should never wrap around one type of choice... otherwise it does defeat the purpose of having to think about the choice.

Casey Hudson did mention that Bioware plans to make it more unclear what's "right" or "wrong" when it comes to Paragon and Renegade decisions. We'll see how that goes... but now it's too early to write off the Collector Base save as a "wrong" choice.

ME2 does side with the 'destroy it' choice though... and wraps everything else around it... hopefully it becomes more realistic (regarding outcomes) in the sequel.

[seirhart]

I'm of the opinion that at first the squad mates want to keep the base but after seeing everything that has happened the squadmates change their mind. Their is nothing wrong with your mind from one thing a minute ago to changing it to something else a minute later. I also see it as a hint from the Devs that keeping the base is a bad idea.

[Smeelia]

I think the post-mission comments if you keep the base are more that your comrades are worried about what might happen and especially about what Cerberus might do with the base rather than actually saying you were wrong to keep it.  It doesn't really sound totally unreasonable but it's easy to see how people could misinterpret it.  It'd be fairly easy to correct by making the comments more like "probably did the right thing, hope nothing goes wrong", which is the sort of response both choices should give really (for different reasons).

I wonder if they'd originally planned an extra option of what to do with the base (maybe call in the Alliance, Council or Cerberus) but cut that option out and just stuck with the Cerberus dialogue, it'd make more sense that way (though it was still a bit of a bad choice of dialogue).

With regards to the original topic, it's been suggested that "loyalty" is more about whether or not the team member is "focussed" on the mission rather than loyal to Shepard (making "loyalty" a misleading title).  If that's correct then Miranda without "loyalty" is still loyal to Shepard but just isn't as focussed on the mission (which can lead to mistakes).

[Sajuro]

Sadly no, I saved the base on the playthrough she was unloyal because I thought she would betray me while holding the line and I wanted to get everyone out of there alive.