231 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I don't think the writing was bad, and the plot to the story had a good bit of potential. It was just how the whole thing was put together that bothered me. Pushing this game out so quickly lowered the quality of it so far below what I expected of Bioware. The lack of player options for customization plus the unfinished set protagonist of Hawke's character just felt very bland to me. I felt like I was playing as an inimportant NPC rather than a main character. Imagine playing Mass Effect 1 where there was more flexibility in classes, you could pick your character race and background, and then if ME 2, all you could play as was Jacob with happy or angry responses basicly saying the same thing with the same outcomes. That's how DA 2 felt to me.

[Zeevico]

Lack of development time meant the plot was weaker than the original.
The companion writing was mostly fine but was at times too reliant on silly and unrealistic combat scenarios, like Aveline's quest. However it felt squeezed into Act II; Act I felt relatively empty of companion dialogue. Also there wasn't much of an opportunity to speak with characters about a given quest or their thoughts generally at the PC's initiative which felt annoying.
The fetch quests (here's your garbage, msir) were instances of terrible design and terrible writing. They simply beggar belief.
Lack of interaction with the world generally, and the fact that the world rarely responded to inter-Act events, was a weakness.

The game would be stronger with better writing, but the tedious and repetitious combat doesn't help either.

[Brockololly]

Pretty much agree.

RPGs in general need to have some sort of hook for me but usually there is something that easily acts as that hook- whether its the combat, exploration, visuals, progression, loot or the story. With BioWare, I can usually count on decent writing with the characters and an interesting story.

DA2 never really hooked me at all. There were moments where I was almost hooked with certain elements but then they'd get dropped or bungled. And with BioWare games the stories have always been the one reliable hook, no matter if the other gameplay elements were subpar. Not with DA2 though. It was the only BioWare game I struggled to keep interest with and the only one where I became bored to the extent I fell asleep playing.

It was just a boring game to me and the lackluster story and characters were part of that.

[upsettingshorts]

"I wasn't hooked" != Poor writing.

Is it?

I mean, if I were to say that I wasn't hooked by DA:O, would you view that as a valid criticism of the writing? Maybe you would. In which case I wouldn't be sure how to follow up.

I wasn't hooked by TW2, to the extent I couldn't motivate myself to progress.  But I think there's a difference between "the writing and characters are bad" and "I just couldn't bring myself to care about any of it."

Sometimes it just isn't for us.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[Icy Magebane]

I agree. Too many forced outcomes to most of the events that you'd expect to have an influence on. Too much disregard for the player's imported storyline so that Bioware could tell the story they wanted to. Too much politics that only serve to polarize groups on the internet. Yeah, I am not a fan of this game's story at all really. A few spots were interesting, some even rose to the level of "good," but the majority of the plot just wasn't fun or enjoyable in any way. And really, is "good" an acceptable benchmark for quality in a Bioware game? Not the last time I checked... heh... certainly, looking for a "good" experience and story isn't what drew me to their games in the first place.

Can't go into more detail than that, as this is the No Spoiler's forum...

[Addai]

I think they did pretty well with what they were given. The demand to make it actiony and make it in a much curtailed, rushed time frame tied their hands.

[upsettingshorts]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Too many forced outcomes to most of the events that you'd expect to have an influence on.

But thou must is a problem in a lot of cRPGs, DA2 included. Or are you bemoaning the lack of clear plot flags for Hawke to set along the lines of "who is the King of Orzammar?"

Icy Magebane wrote...

Too much disregard for the player's imported storyline so that Bioware could tell the story they wanted to.

Do you mean because they set it in a different city?  I'm not sure how directly BioWare could address all of the potential endings of Origins without literally creating a sandbox game.  Or do you mean things like Sister Nightengale?

Icy Magebane wrote...

Too much politics that only serve to polarize groups on the internet.

Are you seriously asserting that the mage v. templar plotline only serves to polarize groups on the internet?  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:03 .

[Mr.House]

Disagree personally. I can forgive a poor main story if the side stories and characters where amazing. I did it with DAO, I did it with DA2.

[Fortlowe]

I think there were some missed oppurtunities that probably weren't really missed at all; they were just left out do to time constraints. One such missed oppotunity, I think, is Mama Hawkes story. No spoilers so I won't elaborate, but, I think more should have been made of this character in particular because at LEAST two other characters would have been richer for her greater depth.

[In Exile]

I found the writing to be exactly like in DA:O. Which is to say, DA2 used the exact same structural elements as DA:O. I'm looking to find a post where I discussed this at length.

Brockololly wrote...
RPGs in general need to have some sort of hook for me but usually there is something that easily acts as that hook- whether its the combat, exploration, visuals, progression, loot or the story. With BioWare, I can usually count on decent writing with the characters and an interesting story.

I think Bioware is terrible at hooks. You essentially either buy into the premise or you don't. BG was like that, BG II was really like that because it forced a cannon on you among other things, and JE and KoTOR because they forced a task and faction on you.

DA:O is a particularly egrigious example because Bioware follows up narrative freedom with a heavily restricted plot. Every failure of DA2's hooks essentially come from DA:O's design.

DA2 never really hooked me at all. There were moments where I was almost hooked with certain elements but then they'd get dropped or bungled. And with BioWare games the stories have always been the one reliable hook, no matter if the other gameplay elements were subpar. Not with DA2 though. It was the only BioWare game I struggled to keep interest with and the only one where I became bored to the extent I fell asleep playing.

It was just a boring game to me and the lackluster story and characters were part of that.

I've never understood the praise Bioware gets for their stories. They're always fun and they're generally faithful to the genre which Bioware works under (e.g. how KoTOR was faithful to Star Wars and JE to old martial arts movies) but they've never been good stories, in the same way Star Wars is brilliant but not particularl good.

Modifié par In Exile, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:19 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Like others have said, compared to DA2's other problems, the writing was fine.

[jlb524]

ipgd wrote...

I disagree. I didn't think it was boring. I was interested in the story, and found it dramatic.

Not all narratives must adhere to a strict eighth grade story format.

I agree with this.

[Emeraq]

I disagree, I liked the story for what was there. I wish there were more story sequences and more story telling in the game than there was, but I didn't hate what was there.

The biggest thing I hated were the reused maps, enemies dropping out of the sky and endless waves of enemies in some areas. The time spent fighting endless mobs could have been better spent on more story.

[Teddie Sage]

Disagree. The fans killed this game. Time is also a factor. If you played DA2 first and loved it, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't go and praise DAO. I may be biased, but the fact is: people are free to believe what they want.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I disagree. The game wasn't perfect, but nothing certainly killed it for me.

[yfullman]

I actually think the writing was one of DA2's strong points. In fact it was superior to Origins and the mass effects in my opinion. To each his own

[hexaligned]

If you look at the acts separately the writing isn't abysmal, but I didn't find it particularly engaging either, other than the Qunari I wasn't interested in anything that happened in the game really. To answer the question though, no. For a game that's 80% combat I can tolerate a tedious story arc, what killed the game for me was, ya know, the actual gameplay.

[Kileyan]

The writing was ok, the problem was that is seemed that the writer has this favorite story of his, and wanted to run with it no matter what. It was a case of THIS IS MY STORY AND YOU AREN'T CHANGING IT!

What I mean by that, is the story wasn't malleable, almost any major plot point has the same outcome no matter what you did or how you acted throughout the entire game. In a way it felt like I was playing a full motion video with some combat in between.

It might have been an interesting story in novel form. But as a player, it was a cage. Not just that we couldn't change things, I don't want to argue that point, because it turns into DA vs DA2. What was wrong is the game foreshadows bad things, tells you who the bad guys are, creeps along with you knowing NPC's A, B and C are going to screw your world up. We meet these people several times, cut to cutscene, click the wheel and watch them walk away. We are ineffectual, an observer that only gets to choose mage or templar occasionally while everything happens no matter what we do.

Maybe a good story, but not a good story to play a game in.

[Shuma Gorath]

Disagree.

The story was fine but the frame narrative made it seem like three short stories. Add on top of that the companion quests were just tossed at the player with very little build up, followed with limited interaction and events that were over before they even had a chance to start. On the bright side, the companions didn't spend the whole game doing calibrations. Oh and taking away player choices and limiting their options is never a good idea and will not be seen in a favorable light.

[In Exile]

Kileyan wrote...
What I mean by that, is the story wasn't malleable, almost any major plot point has the same outcome no matter what you did or how you acted throughout the entire game. In a way it felt like I was playing a full motion video with some combat in between. 

This is how Bioware always writes stories. DA2 just exposed them because it forced them to show consequences of your actions in-game, and to Bioware, the stories are about the choices you make in them as opposed to the consequences from those choices.

[Nefla]

I agree. The story was so disjointed and was just a mishmash of random mini stories thrown into one. How does doing a bunch of tasks for gold so that you can buy a house have anything to do with Qunari supposedly on the brink of conquering the city? How do either of those things relate to mages vs templars? They don't link together at all. The vast majority of the quests are so short and pointless and even within a story arc they don't fit that well together.

You can't talk to your companions or family much to learn about their stories and personalities and you pretty much can't talk to NPCs at all. How much "story" is there in piles of letters popping up at your house telling you to go kill some random guys or "investigate" something which just ends in killing random guys, or bring back some item which you have to kill some random guys to get. There's no intrigue or mystery no hard choices, hardly any memorable NPCs and fewer still that you actually care about.

It just seemed like there were too many chefs in the kitchen and they just threw in a bunch of random ideas and called it a plot. To me it seems like it would be easy to make the plot coherent. Either make the whole story about mage vs templars, or about the qunari or combine money making with either of those to make one story. They forced Merril, Anders, and on non mage playthroughs Bethany on you to try and force you to care about mages, but if they had actually written a compelling story with events beyond "kill random guys" or "fetch torn pantaloons" you'd care about it.

There was so much wasted potential in DA2's story. Characters will mention something and you think "hey that sounds interesting" but you don't get to be a part of it, it just shows up in your codex or not at all.

For example, a mage vs templar story could have had you joining an underground mage resistance where you see recurring characters such as resistance leaders/organizers, someone operating a safe house, local shop keepers that are supporters, etc...and any of them could be involved in the storyline. As the plot builds you could be making bigger and bigger strikes against the templars and rescuing higher profile mages. If you chose the templar side, almost all the plot events could be the same but with you working against the mages, trying to root them out and planning bigger attacks, etc...The templar side would have friendly NPCs as well that would add to the story and how much you care about the world. In the first arc of the game you could be neutral and get caught up in quests relating to both sides so that you would get to know the philosophy and characters of either side, then at the end of the first arc or the beginning of the second you would pick a side.

I would much prefer something with a building plotline and climax with interesting side characters, events, and lore to random running around.

Modifié par Nefla, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .

[Black Arachnia]

What killed DA2 for me is all the streamlining and limitations placed on the player. Oh and Kirkwall, talk about being put into a lifeless locale and having the key thrown away. And the frame narrative didn't help; made the game feel so broken up.

[Lenimph]

ipgd wrote...

Not all narratives must adhere to a strict eighth grade story format.

 

Exactly and as you get to higher grade levels you learn (or rather are supposed to) that a good story can often be different from traditional archetypes.  

I think just because there isn't one large and in plain sight conflict people start complaining that it didn't exsist beyond subplots. 

I thought the writing in DA2 was great.

[Siansonea]

DA2 isn't dead (I enjoyed it) so it follows that it wasn't killed, therefore there is no killer to identify.

[Blastback]

For me, the general story just wasn't as fun as Origins. Say what you will about the typical Bioware plot, it may be cliche and reused, but it is something I always enjoy. I always have enjoyed being the protagonist of Bioware's stories, except for DA2. I'll go in to details later when I get a chance, but it just wasn't as fun to be Hawke as it was to be Revan, or the Bhaalspawn, or the Warden.

That said, this was just one problem amoung many that made the overall experiance less enjoyable for me.