231 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

jlb524 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I disagree. I didn't think it was boring. I was interested in the story, and found it dramatic.

Not all narratives must adhere to a strict eighth grade story format.

I agree with this.

^Thirded. My favorite movie of all time is 2001: A Space Odyssey. Try doing a traditional story outline for that movie. Try finding a "protagonist" or a "plot". Go ahead, try.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:16 .

[Brockololly]

ipgd wrote...
Not all narratives must adhere to a strict eighth grade story format.

But is DA2 really any different than your tried and true rags to riches type story? People bemoan Origins being about killing the Big Bad, but all DA2 does is start out with generic commoner person who has to scrap together money to make a life in big bad new city, becomes popular and become CHAMPION OF KIRKWALL and then has to solve everybody's non trivial problems like every other RPG hero due to every other character's incompetence. And instead of one Big Bad, they just chuck the kitchen sink at you and have everybody turn into the Big Bad for the finale.

I can respect what BioWare was trying to do with the framed narrative and the more non traditional story, but for me at least, the execution wasn't very good and it wasn't quite as novel as they seem to think it was.

[OdanUrr]

Kileyan wrote...

It might have been an interesting story in novel form. 
(...)
Maybe a good story, but not a good story to play a game in.

This is exactly how I felt about DA2. There are a lot of interesting premises that could better be explored in paper and are poorly executed in the game. This is because the formula that applies to novels doesn't quite work on games. When you read a novel you have some idea of who the characters are and what the plot's going to be about, but the reader can't visualize an objective, they can't see the light at the end of the tunnel or it would defeat the purpose of the story. More often than not, events unfold around key characters and their reactions to these events are explored throughout.

When you play a game, particularly an RPG game, you need to have an endgame. You need a drive, pure and simple. While you pursue this final objective, events unfold around you and you deal with them in the manner you see fit. These events can ultimately affect the outcome of the story, that final objective you've been pursuing. DA2's three acts resemble more of a disjointed group of stories that just happen to have Hawke, our character, as the main protagonist. There is an underlying theme to the game that is the Templar-Mage conflict but, unfortunately, this tends to be largely exaggerated as if to make it clear to the player that there are evil mages as well as evil templars (or, rather, there are good mages as well as good templars; to be fair, I saw mostly good and honorable templars vs. crazy, deranged blood mages). I'd like to believe we're smart enough to realise this without having it shouted at us at every turn. DA2 seems determined to make sure we get the message, and in doing so, in forcing it upon us again and again, it loses some credibility (case in point, the "All that remains" quest in Act II).

Having said this, I still have faith in the writing team. Every one of Bioware's RPG before DA2 had solid writing and even DA2 shows a lot of promise but eventually falls short, perhaps due to the fact that it wants to cram too many things together in too little time (ironically, considering the ten year time frame) or, rather, a lot of time is taken up by random and meaningless side quests when it could have been put to better use deepening the bond between companions as well as developing other characters such as Meredith or Orsino.

[Esbatty]

I'm still wondering if the gray rock Varric hatched from had little ginger wisps on it.

[OdanUrr]

Siansonea II wrote...

^Thirded. My favorite movie of all time is 2001: A Space Odyssey. Try doing a traditional story outline for that movie. Try finding a "protagonist" or a "plot". Go ahead, try.

Kubrick's 2001 is loosely (and I say it with the utmost respect because it's one of my all-time fave sci-fi movies) based on Arthur C. Clarke's "2001: A Space Odyssey." There is a protagonist, in fact there are several though we could perhaps limit them to Bowman and HAL, and there is a plot, namely they're sent to investigate the Saturn monolith, if memory serves (in the movie, the monolith is near Jupiter).

[hexaligned]

Siansonea II wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I disagree. I didn't think it was boring. I was interested in the story, and found it dramatic.

Not all narratives must adhere to a strict eighth grade story format.

I agree with this.

^Thirded. My favorite movie of all time is 2001: A Space Odyssey. Try doing a traditional story outline for that movie. Try finding a "protagonist" or a "plot". Go ahead, try.

If DA2 had the amount of symbolism and depth as 2001, you might have a point.  I don't think many people object to the concept of DA2's story telling, (well maybe they do, but I don't) the implementation just fell flat though.  Whether because of ambition exceeding talent, or because of the rushed dev cycle, I don't know.  Comparing a shallow and transparent video game to 2001 just seems like an odd choice to me.  I can create the most convoluted and disjointed story arc the world has ever seen, those traits alone don't intrinsically make it good writing however.

[Icy Magebane]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Too many forced outcomes to most of the events that you'd expect to have an influence on.

But thou must is a problem in a lot of cRPGs, DA2 included. Or are you bemoaning the lack of clear plot flags for Hawke to set along the lines of "who is the King of Orzammar?"

Icy Magebane wrote...

Too much disregard for the player's imported storyline so that Bioware could tell the story they wanted to.

Do you mean because they set it in a different city?  I'm not sure how directly BioWare could address all of the potential endings of Origins without literally creating a sandbox game.  Or do you mean things like Sister Nightengale?

Icy Magebane wrote...

Too much politics that only serve to polarize groups on the internet.

Are you seriously asserting that the mage v. templar plotline only serves to polarize groups on the internet?  

All I'm saying is that in previous Bioware titles, stand-alone games like Jade Empire and KotoR, it felt as though the PC had a massive impact on the world.  Decisions held weight because you could see the results firsthand, and the conclusion reflected your choices.  This seems to be impossible, or maybe just undesirable, in a series with an import feature, because now we have resurrection based on popularity and epilogues that are disregarded as "rumors."  Anything else I say is just going to lead to spoilers, but basically, if you played DA2, you should know that almost everything you do leads to one outcome... in my eyes that isn't good enough because it just shows that Bioware isn't willing to create branching paths over the course of several titles, that accurately reflect what we've seen in-game.  They'll just set certain events as canon, and we get the "pleasure" of playing through another installment waiting to see what got changed or invalidated.  Admittedly, they have far less variables to consider this time around, since every road leads to the same destination... I just see that as lazy writing.

The thing about "politics" is probably just because I tend to get fed up with all the extremist views I've read here (some of which I've also tossed around).  It just seems as though if we had say, 5 possible endings, you wouldn't have so many "I'm right and you're wrong" arguments floating around.  But that's just a matter of taste, I guess...

[Romantiq]

Half and half. Wasn't just writing that killed this game for me.

[ItsTheTruth]

There was no story. Flemeth, the Qunari, the Grey Wardens... appear and disappear without explanation.

And the ending was terrible.

[mesmerizedish]

Disagree.

[Demx]

DA2 felt like a bunch of episodic DLCs. Each act was like a complete mini-story, but there were hints spread through out each one to try to entice the player into playing further.

For me, it just didn't feel fluid enough to be anything more than that. Perhaps the writing style was too different for each act, I don't know. It was like I defeat the the "final boss" for a section, and the world felt like it was rest to tell a completely different story.

Modifié par Siradix, 03 juillet 2011 - 08:07 .

[Firky]

Esbatty wrote...

I'm still wondering if the gray rock Varric hatched from had little ginger wisps on it.

[Master Shiori]

ipgd wrote...

I disagree. I didn't think it was boring. I was interested in the story, and found it dramatic.

Not all narratives must adhere to a strict eighth grade story format.

Agreed.

I found the story to be enjoyable through acts 1 and 2, while act 3 was pretty weak and unfocused.

[ademska]

disagree. just because it doesn't rock a typical three-act play format (which is what you're describing), jeez. i thought the overarching story was dramatic and gripping. even if i didn't, clearly everybody's forgiven dao for its transgressions in that department because its characters and side plots were so excellent.

...unless you want to seriously argue that, "ohmygosh here comes the archdemon go kill it in a few months!" is brilliant storytelling.

and 'killed'? nah, i'm still here loving the hell out of this game months later, so there you go.

Modifié par ademska, 03 juillet 2011 - 09:36 .

[Chiramu]

ademska wrote...

disagree. just because it doesn't rock a typical three-act play format (which is what you're describing), jeez. i thought .

3 act play? They could've gone for a more Shakespearean approach and used five acts , that would be fun!

[DieHigh2012]

I honestly think the story was really unconnected as it was due to the deadline, given more time I really think it could have been an amazing story.

I know it's cliche, but I blame EA. Bioware is still Bioware and they will continue to make great games, however if ME3 is a failure I will begin to doubt they still have it.

Besides there is always Rockstar games like Red Dead Redemption and L.A. Noire (not the the GTA stuff I really dislike those games)

[bEVEsthda]

"Poor writing killed DA2. Agree or disagree?"

Disagree. There isn't much wrong with the actual writing as such. The story as such is fine enough, though, of course, extremely cliché, ('bout half of any library's novels have much the same plot, episodic tale of climb from rags to riches, interwoven with mother's death etc). The dialogue is also quite fine. At occasions even great. So no, the wtiting is good enough.

Where it all falls apart is in the game's implementation of 'telling' the writing. It becomes too detached and is also too disjointed. Like a poorly abridged novel, great in its original form. They also miss an important opportunity to bond the gamer to Hawke, in a more elaborate experience of the destruction of home and epic flight.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:39 .

[Kilshrek]

Poor execution killed DA 2, the idea behind most things (all combat aspects aside, I dislike just about everything to do with the new combat) was pretty good. A non-typical story, a story told over a long-ish length of time had good idea written all over it.

The execution of these ideas however left more than a lot to be desired. The story rather ignored any input from the player, carefully giving the illusion of the illusion of choice in the big events. Had the writing been given more time to stew I think the final product, story wise, would have been better, with events flowing more coherently and making more sense, especially during the end game.

[Demon Velsper]

The cause of death were multiple things, poor writing was just one of many.

[WidowMaker9394]

The idea wasn't bad, the execution was.

The three main stories themselves could have been great, if a bit uninspired, but they're never given the proper time to evolve and they all have abrupt and forced endings without any closure. Especially the main ending.

I don't like the new animations and design philosophy (both gameplay/combat-wise and artistic) nor do I like the recycled areas and cramped game world but DA2 could have been great if EA didn't push Bioware so hard to capitalize on the success of the original.

And this comes from a hardcore CoD/Halo/GTA-player, the very type of gamer Bioware is so hot for.

[Khayness]

It was rushed writing, not poor.

Modifié par Khayness, 03 juillet 2011 - 11:19 .

[mbr.to]

i think the writing was fine
but the leveldesign sucked.
its not a masterpiece like DAO but still a good game

[PillarBiter]

total disagree with the OP.

I thoguht the banter, dialogue and most of the story was well thought out. People give DAO too much credit imho. But it seems that popular opinion is that you either like or dislike the mage story in this game. ah well. For me the story here was better then mass effect's (1&2), so yeah, I liekd it.