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[Satyricon331]

Now that we’ve lost all the sorcerer spell pick threads at the old Bioware forums, I thought I would start a new one since the only other one I can find here (besides the current worst-picks one, of course) is this one.  It’s great, and has commentary by players better than me, but I want more b/c I *love* these kinds of threads and now there’s a bit of a dearth. 

My own (typical) list probably won’t be of much interest since I roleplay a lot of the selections.  I assume my sorcs in Candlekeep have read a lot about sorcerers’ power strategies, but RP is still an issue.  The biggest overall
RP points that hold regardless of individual character are that I don’t metagame regarding what items are coming up, and my sorcerers have to plan for both solo and party situations since they don’t know what the future holds (esp., I just could never go truly solo by rejecting Imoen, so they plan on taking at least her if she survives Spellhold).  The characters have had such a variety of combat experience by the later spell levels that their individual personalities affect their picks less. 

I have SCS2 (mainly just its spell changes and fighter, mage & cleric AI enhancements), which also affects a number of picks.


Lvl1: Magic Missile, Sleep, Identify, Prot. from Petrification, Prot. From Evil
Comments: Growing up in Candlekeep, my sorcs have an exaggerated view of the importance of Identify, and of protecting oneself from countryside basilisks, which I’d imagine fuel a lot of fireside tales (after all, they’re right under the keep).  I have been thinking of ditching them, but I’d have to experiment in Tutu (which I haven’t played in ages) to get a new sense of the Sword Coast to see again what my sorcs might be thinking. 

Lvl2: Melf’s Acid Arrow, Resist Fear, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Blur 
Comments: I’ve seen so many soloist lists skip Resist Fear and I don’t know what they do against fear effects (aTweaks demons and scs2 clerics are big on them), unless they play by never throwing their saves, which I wouldn’t want to do.  Re:invisibility- I’ve grown to love this spell so much.  I don’t metagame my battles, so in order to buff effectively, I either need to use Farsight or buff myself while invisible.

Lvl3: MMM, Remove Magic, Skull Trap, Haste, and Flame Arrow
Comments: I skip the SCS2 component that nerfs MMMs to +2 (I’d go for it if it were +3; at +2 the spell is almost pointless except the APR).  Haste vs. Spell Thrust is a bit painful in scs2, but Haste has saved my solos in some battles.  I take Flame Arrow late since my low-tech numerical estimation gives it a lower expected damage output than MMMs in the earlier parts of the game.  (Lately though I’ve begun to wonder if there’s an attack penalty (not just a defense penalty) for missile weapons launched against up-close melee fighters?)

Lvl4: Stoneskin, Polymorph Self, Imp. Inv., Farsight, Teleport Field 
Comments: I used to have TF in place of PS, a Fireshield in lieu of II (I have aTweaks installed), and then something whimsical for pick 5.  In SCS2 I’ve cooled to TF until I can place stacks in the spell sequencer/CC since the fighters know to switch to ranged weapons and to take oils of speed.  (When TF stacks though, it’s begun to feel a little cheesy to me so I might drop it altogether).  For Fireshield, it’s nice but druids are so rare in the Sword Coast and Athkatla that scrolls are fine.  PS is just plain fun on top of being powerful.  I used to need MMMs to take out those golems in de'Arnise keep, but the Gnoll form works just as well (so who knows, maybe I'll nerf MMMs after all).

Lvl5: Breach, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield, Animate Dead, (Lower Resistance?) 
Comments: I’ve always gotten bored with my solo+Imo runs, and I don’t usually play ToB, so I’ve never actually reached that 5th pick.  Even when/while I’m soloing, breach is important in scs2 for all the enemies’ protection spells.

Lvl6: Death Spell, True Sight, Prot. from Mag. Weapons, (Pierce Magic or Prot. from Magic Energy, and then the other one)
Comments: Most people seem to skip the Death spell, but I’ve found Death Fog frustrating even when soloing. 
I don’t like the moving the Mislead clone offscreen since if your enemies did so, the complaints would reach high heaven.  I have a soft spot for PfME even though it's main added value over SI:Necromancy is merely that it lasts so long.

Lvl7: RRoR, Mordy Sword, Project Image, Limited Wish, Spell Sequencer
Comments: I sometimes switch LW and SS.  Also, has anyone had SCS2 and skipped Mordy?  I’ve been thinking of playing a character who doesn’t use summons at all, and don’t know if it would be viable solo.

Lvl8: ADHW, Pierce Shield, Spell Trigger, Simulacrum, Prot. from Energy
Comments: There isn’t much to tempt me away since PW:Blind is a single target spell in scs2.

Lvl9: Time Stop, Wish, CC, Spell Strike,
Lvl10: Imp. Alacrity, Dragon’s Breath, Summon Planatar, Energy Blades
Comments: I’ve always fiddled with the order on both lvls. 9 & 10.  Taking TS and IA first for both has the advantage that you take them both at level 18.
 

- Out of curiosity: What strategies do sorc players use against SCS2’s beholders and illithids? Is it generally the same as vs. the vanilla ones (summons, images, jelly form)?

- Also, I have had a bug on Spook in every single install I’ve had.  Whether I installed from my CDs while I had them, or now from gog.com, either spook has no effect, or it changes the enemies circle to yellow as if it worked… but doesn’t actually prompt any running away or ceasing of attacking.  I’ve found only one other post of the same
problem.  Does anyone have any insights?  If it worked I'd love to take it.

(WOW, this was much, much longer than I anticipated.  Thanks for reading!) 

edit: formatting.  Because Microsoft and I hate each other.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:25 .

[polytope]

Satyricon331 wrote...
I’ve seen so many soloist lists skip Resist Fear
and I don’t know what they do against fear effects (aTweaks demons and scs2
clerics are big on them), unless they play by never throwing their saves,
which I wouldn’t want to do.

The 4th level spell "Emotion" has the side effect of resist fear on the caster - a fine opening move; potions of clarity or greenstone amulet are the other option (really, the only option in the early levels of Tutu).

I might choose glitterdust instead of resist fear... But there will never be consensus on a sorcerer spell thread. Never.

[amanasleep]

You don't need Remove Fear to solo, just use Potion of Clarity and later Greenstone Amulet.

Do you use haste on summons? If not you should just use Oil of Speed. Supplies of both these potions are functionally unlimited within BG2 if you do the Mage Stronghold right.

edit: Beaten!

Modifié par amanasleep, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:26 .

[Satyricon331]

Good to know about the potions.  I tend not to do them as much as I should.  At least some of my sorcs would worry about the supply or the price.  They'd never know about the greenstone amulet in BG1, though.

I took glitterdust several times and I don't view it as favorably as most ppl.  In scs2, most enemies have buffed themselves and they tend to make their saves unless you cast greater malison, at least in my experience.

And hey - you guys should post your lists! 

edit: good grief, formatting.  I didn't paste this one in!  I don't know what happened.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:57 .

[xler3]

1
-Blindness (necessary spell for BG1)
-Sleep (necessary spell for BG1)
-Magic Missiles (bread and butter level 1 spell throughout the entire series)
-Chromatic Orb (finger of death lite, not so bad for a level 1 spell)
-Identify (what else is there? not too bad if you are stuck in a bad situation and need an unidentified wand... been there in an scsii ambush actually)
2
-Melf's Acid Arrow (really good damage, stackable, interrupts mages. Tends to be my most used spell in my character profile by the end of a run)
-Mirror Image (good defense for lvl 2 spell)
-Invisibility (situational, but more than a life saver)
-Resist Fear (fear is so common in scs(ii), i find it necessary)
-Blur (nothing else really, nice bonuses/long lasting)
3
-Flame Arrow (great damage, scales nicely)
-Skull Trap (insane damage, set a couple of traps)
-Slow (beautiful spell for early-mid soa, like haste)
-Spell Thrust (need it for scsii casters, melf minute meteor is also a nice choice, but I play with spell revisions and they are kind of nerfed in that, kind of debateable I think though... Jan/Edwin can use this spell to save me a slot)
-Haste (one of the best spells ever, however I generally play parties, so jan or edwin can probably use this and save me a spell)
4
-Stoneskin (not even going to comment)
-Spider Spawn (spell revision sword spiders have web tangle, incredible summon)
-Otiluke Resilute Sphere (no save when cast on allies in spell revisions, personal preference... i dont think there is much in the lvl 4 tree, IDK, definitely arguable)
-Spell sequencer (nice backup)
-Improved Invisibility (beautiful bonuses)
5
-Cloudkill (one of the earliest spells you can use to damage mages who keep globe up... but scsii enemies don't sit in cloudkill)
-Breach (amazing, about as necessary as stoneskin)
-Lower Resist (doesn't see much use, but nice to stick in a spell trigger for certain fights later on)
-Monster Summong III (I use spell revisions, and this spell is ridiculously good within the realms of that mod)
-Spell Immunity (spell immunity... what can i say)

6
-Chain Lightning (outstanding damage, especially when stored in a spell trigger)
-Improved Haste (no comment... too good to pass up)
-Contingency (I play strictly no-reload games, I like to stick protective stuff in here just in case
-Pierce Magic (nice debuffer)
-PFMW (no comment)
~~~I let the party priests or Jan deal with illusions, so no true sight.

7
-Mordenkainen Sword (lovely distraction)
-Project Image (most overpowered spell in the baldur gate universe)
-Spell Sequencer (stick 3 skull traps in this)
-RRoR (great mage debuffer, takes out spell trap and others)
-Power Word: Stun (mages don't have enough HP to dodge this, excellent against scsii mages)

8
-Power Word: Blind (although nerfed a great deal in spell revisions, works on pretty much everything. INSANE spell)
-ADHW (nerfed in spell revisions, still does outstanding aoe damagee)
-Pierce Shield (more debuffers for scsii casters)
-Spell Trigger (fire 3 chain lightnings at a group, watch them all die)
-Symbol Stun (-6 saves, works on almost everything. pretty nice)
9
-Time Stop (no comment)
-Wish (no comment)
-Chain Contigency (no comment)
-Spellstrike (the ultimate debuffer in spell revisions, probably the only debateable lvl 9 spell in vanilla)
Now, I haven't played a sorcerer through Tob/ascension in YEARS, so my choices might seem a bit off. My assumption is that you are playing from BG1 up to Ascension, and within a party. I wouldn't mind some advice though, because I hope to give a scs(ii)/spell revision trilogy no reload if my archer ends up failing.

Modifié par xler3, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:05 .

[Satyricon331]

I haven't tried Spell Revisions, but Contingency + Otiluke sounds wonderful. I've been wanting a lvl-5 damage-dealing spell, so I might try Cloudkill sometime despite scs2. I'm not sure what I'd give up.

[BelgarathMTH]

Thanks for starting this, Satyr. I like yours and Xler's lists.

My own choices always get influenced by role-playing and by party play (i.e. I don't play solo).

So, I'm always thinking about keeping my friends alive, and I tend to pick incapacitating and crowd control spells over damage spells.

Role-playing wise, using Death Spells and Finger of Death and Horrid Wilting and that kind of thing just feels really evil to me, so I don't use them. I also have my sense of the heroic epic heavily influenced by Star Wars and the code of the Jedi, so I feel really guilty using damage spells. ("The Force must be used for knowledge and defense, never for attack")

I like to role-play being an honorable and dutiful hero, so when I play sorcerer, I use my magic to support npc's like Keldorn. I like being a team player.

I'm going to really pay attention to these spell lists. I look forward to learning from other sorcerers.

[Satyricon331]

That's interesting about your aversion to those kinds of spells. I've RPed a cleric-mage who won't summon animals/sentient monsters b/c it seems like a form of slavery. I've played several sorcerers who won't let party members do so, although my party sorc at the moment trusts the good clerics on the matter so doesn't make a rule about it.

edit: although now that you mention the Death spell, I wonder if those characters should have opposed spells that insta-kill summons too.  Otoh, instantly killing them seems more merciful than prolonging the slaughter...

Modifié par Satyricon331, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:09 .

[BelgarathMTH]

@Satyr, I know, one of the great things about D&D is the ethical thinking it can encourage. I usually go with "trust your feelings". I can rationalize that it's okay to use any spell under certain circumstances, but my gut tells me no.

Some of my favorite sorc spells:
Magic Missile ( I imagine them as telekinetically thrown objects), Sleep, Identify
Mirror Image, Melf's Acid Arrow (a telekinetically thrown arrow, in my imagination)
Melf's Minute Meteors (more telekinesis), Flame Arrow (telekinesis, or a thrown lightsaber)
Haste, Slow
Stoneskin, Emotion:Hopeless (a jedi mind trick)
Breach, Lower Resistance (yeah, it's useless. until one day you're suddenly fighting Firkraag.)
Spell Immunity (gotta deflect those Chain Lighnings from Palpatine)
Protection from Magic Energy (Palpatine again), Contingency
Limited Wish, Projected Image
Symbol:Stun (it saves your friends, I like it.), Simulacrum
Chain Contingency, Spell Trigger, Wish

That's a few of my favorites. It's not a power-gamer's list, and it's far from complete.

Sometimes I feel guilty about even the Magic Missiles, but they're effective and they cause physical damage. If you have to kill, they wouldn't be any less merciful than swords or arrows.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 03 juillet 2011 - 11:13 .

[Saint of Sinners]

This kind of topics always brings a lot of ideas to mind, and more than most causes a lot of conflict. However, the simple consensus is that it's based on how much of a challenge you're setting for yourself. On a maximum install of SCSII with Tactics and Insane difficulty thrown in, a lot of the spells that would be used are defensive.

Include something like Full Plate and Packing Steel mod where armor spells provide physical resistances (yes, Ghost Armor gives you something like 50% to everything), the whole mechanics change. I, for one, like to outlast enemies with my sorcerer. To achieve this, all he ever does is just stand there and refresh his spells forever until the enemy empties his spellbook.

As for picks, the REALLY indispensable ones are:
any contingency/sequencer spell
Spellstrike
Prot. from Magic Weapons
Improved Invisibility

My other spells are pretty straightforward. I don't use much summons and my Magical Swords don't need Haste since all an enemy will do is use Death Spell. I don't use Death Spell or Death Fog, because Skull Trap + MGoI will do the trick. If it doesn't, ADHW on Spell Trigger will. If it doesn't, a Planetar would kick everyone anyway. If it doesn't, 10 Planetars will. I don't use Limited Wish much to restore spells because Spell Trap does the same, albeit that's cheesy.

Anyway, one spell takes a special place in my game as a sorc: Teleport Field. Boom, Firkraag. You can't touch me. Heh.

Modifié par Saint of Sinners, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:27 .

[BelgarathMTH]

@SaintofSinners, wow, what interesting and useful advice. I would never in a million years have thought about using Teleport Field to keep Firkraag away from me so I could cast!

I also had not thought until reading some other players' advice about using MGoI in conjunction with what I have always called "suicide spells", or "If I'm going, I'm taking you with me!" Lightning Bolt, Skull Trap. Of course, my role-playing ethics still prevent me from using that.


Are you sure PfMW is all that great for a party sorc as opposed to a solo sorc? The reason I ask is that my friends in BG2 are so powerful (Keldorn, Ano, Jaheira) that I have gotten to late game (just outside Spellhold with the entire Athkatla map finished, all strongholds won), without ever being under attack myself more than once or twice since Irenicus' dungeon.

I am very excited and interested in that Teleport Field idea. I've always dismissed that spell as what-the-heck useless. I reallly must experiment with it a bit to see how it works.

BTW - I must admit that it has been years since I have taken a run to late SoA and ToB. My memory has faded to the point that it's like a new game to me from here on out.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 03 juillet 2011 - 11:06 .

[Satyricon331]

Saint of Sinners wrote...
This kind of topics always brings a lot of ideas to mind, and more than most causes a lot of conflict. *snip*

That's why they're so interesting   But seriously, the ones where people (hopefully civilly) disagree can be some of the most informative/thought-provoking, which is why I like them and was so miffed we lost the old bioware forum.  Like your strategies vs summons are just the type of thing I love to read

I haven't played on insanity, but on the lower difficulty settings at least, I haven't found any of the spells to be indespensible except Stoneskin, which is the only one I haven't tried going without besides Magic Missile and Breach (although I know others skip Breach).  I still play while skipping the Minor Sequencer and sometimes Spellstrike, although scs2 has me reconsidering the latter.  Mislead or the Absolute Immunity-type spells can substitute for PfMW, if needed (although PfMW is really the more flexible and cost-effective).

Teleport Field can be very fun, but like I've said I've cooled to it a bit.  Take my preferences with a grain of salt though as I've never taken Firkraag on while low-level.

Thanks for the posts!

[BelgarathMTH]

Heh, on this run, I took on Firkraag while at a pretty darn high level! And he still almost kicked my butt! (Made me reload and try again - the difference the second time was Improved Invisible - I had never taken that one as very important before I got "schooled" by Firkraag!)

My memory is fuzzy, but I do remember that the first time I ever played ToB a decade or more ago, I gave up in disgust upon encountering a dragon guarding some kind of tomb or ruins or temple in the jungle that I had to get past in order to continue the game, and I totally hit a brick wall.

It was because, at that time, I had no idea how important Lower Resistance plus Magic Missile was going to be against dragons. Fighters and clerics need 20 to hit, rogues can't do squat (I didn't know about Set Snare at the time or how to potentially exploit it), the thing appeared to be absolutely immune to anything I could do to it with magic, and I had not truly grasped the importance of certain "useless" spells at critical moments, especially in unavoidable dragon fights. (ahem, Lower Resistance, ahem)

And back in that day (mid to late 1990s, I think), the internet was in its infancy, and there was no such thing as communicating with other players around the globe to find out why I had just utterly failed at ToB.

So, yeah, I really appreciate advice and info that I pick up in threads like this one.

[kenng]

In theory, so long as you are wielding a staff of the magi, there are no indispensable spells, as proven by elmonster.

[ussnorway]

LVL2; The humble 'Glitterdust' is my 1st pick... 'Web' being the second.
It covers a large area, no FF issues, pops invisibility & blinds them!

[AnonymousHero]

Saint of Sinners wrote...
If it doesn't, 10 Planetars will. I don't use Limited Wish much to restore spells because Spell Trap does the same, albeit that's cheesy.

Wait, 10 Plantars is OK, but Spell Trap for infinite spells isn't?

[Saint of Sinners]

@Anonymous_Hero

Sorry about that, the thought pretty much ended with the 10 Planetars thingy. I was supposed to start a new thought there. It was in-line with the idea of summons not being so crucial for me unless they were Planetars anyway, and that I don't use them as much because multiple Planetars destroy the game, having one is just alright, while anything else really isn't (well, at least for me). Still, I do get Mordenkainen's for those pesky warrior types.

About Spell Trap, that was another argument altogether. I don't use multiple Planetars, and I don't use Spell Trap much either unless the encounter is like, 10 mages against me. I won't be a fool and not use the situation to my advantage by using a gamebreaking cycle (not cheese for me at all, just a cycle).

I do apologize about the confusion. Thanks for pointing it out, though.

EDIT: Darn spelling mistakes.

Modifié par Saint of Sinners, 04 juillet 2011 - 07:43 .

[Saint of Sinners]

@Belgarath

Teleport Field is indispensable for me if only because it stops everyone from being able to attack me while I reestablish my defenses. As I've pointed out before, I count rounds. I painstakingly check how many rounds my defenses are going to last. When, say, PfMW is about to expire, and there's a lot of fighters around and a mage is waiting for a chance to get through PfMW with his Melf's Minute Meteors, then I'd rather go Teleport Field, set up a Stoneskin or Mirror Image to soak up the MMM for the next round or so (MMM sets attacks to 5APR, which means you need at least 10 skins or 10 images to soak up the casting of PfMW) and then cast PfMW.

In this case, Teleport Field is the real hero because it was able to shuttle around warriors until the sorc was able to pull off another PfMW. Besides, there are just moments that Teleport Field is more useful than a PfMW. Check out my battle with Firkraag where Teleport Field "pushed" him away and I was able to erect more buffs to take him down.

PfMW might not be that important in a party where buffs are thrown left and right to the point of damage being just a nuisance, but in solo games which I play so much more often that party games (I've never played a party game in years), PfMW+PfME is the cheapest damage stopper for an arcanist. It might not be a perfect buff, but it's enough.

There's also the thing about Emotion being a really good spell, about Pierce Shield for the Ravager because he's protected from Lower Resistance, and about using Control Demon against Ascension Melissan. All in all, I think the sorc's spell list is more of a what-level-of-challenge-do-I-want-out-of-my-game kind of thing. After all, at this point, I cannot play BG2 without SCSII, and SCSII changed my spell list quite a lot.

[Satyricon331]

@ussnorway:
They're very fun and useful.  Web is particularly entertaining with Aurora's Shoes & Boots installed, since there's a Gnomish Boots you can equip that immunizes you to web.  There are also potions of freedom.

I meant to note originally in case anyone doesn't know (and correct me if it's changed with mods or if my memory has just gone to pot), but (from what I read on the old bioware forums) with multiple save-or-else spells in a sequencer casting, the target throws one save and uses the number against each spell (so the draws are not independently distributed).  Having two,say, glitterdusts in a minor sequencer is a waste, since either the target saves against both or against neither.  Similarly w/ 2 different spells that have different saving penalties, if they were independent draws it would be less likely the target would emerge unscathed.  

@Saint of Sinners:
I love reading the rationales for spell picks like that.  In that kind of circumstance, if I didn't have a protection-loaded spell trigger, I would have opted for an invisibility-type spell, tried to prevent it in the first place with summons, or just cast PfMW early.  I suspect my strategies wouldn't hold up to Ascension, though.

Incidentally, this type of thing is why I miss Dimension Door from vanilla BG1.  I was just looking at the old Ding0 Tweak Pack at PPG and wondering if it would be safe to install w/ the BG2 Tweak Pack, scs2, and atweaks.

[BelgarathMTH]

@Saint of Sinners: wow, that was a fascinating read about Firkraag, man! (..., girl?) You posted that one while I was still working on learning how to read and appreciate the no-reload threads. I think it actually points out an advantage bards and wizards have over sorcs - the ability to adjust their spellbooks.

Sorcerers are constantly agonizing over which spells to learn, because we get stuck with them forever, and every one we learn means another one we can't learn.

I really appreciate your concise writing style with the creative text link names. You are very reader-friendly as a writer.

@Satyr, you just taught me something. I didn't know that there was one save per sequencer (we think), and I have often in the past wasted spells thinking the enemy would have to make multiple saves. I think maybe one save-or-else plus one no-save or a damage spell or two would be a potentially good combo.

EDIT: I just got around to studying page one of that old thread you linked to at the top of this thread. You're right, there's really great advice to be had there.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:31 .

[polytope]

Satyricon331 wrote...
I meant to note originally in case anyone doesn't know (and correct me if it's changed with mods or if my memory has just gone to pot), but (from what I read on the old bioware forums) with multiple save-or-else spells in a sequencer casting, the target throws one save and uses the number against each spell (so the draws are not independently distributed).  Having two,say, glitterdusts in a minor sequencer is a waste, since either the target saves against both or against neither.  Similarly w/ 2 different spells that have different saving penalties, if they were independent draws it would be less likely the target would emerge unscathed.  

This is an interesting subject - I can't check how the game actually calculates it - but I've found this only holds true if the spells use the same projectile. I.e. a minor sequencer with blindness and spook will allow two different saving throws (spook uses the flying skull animation, blindness the sparkly ball).

Also, even if the projectiles are the same, failing one saving throw doesn't mean failing both if the penalty is different. I.e. spook and finger of death use the same projectile, but failing the -6 save against spook doesn't automatically mean the target fails the -2 save against FoD.

[Satyricon331]

I didnt know about the animation difference, but it makes sense since those animations actually do affect the gameplay (I would always use Magic Missile + MAA in a minor sequencer against mirror-imaged mages, except that MM takes its time to arch, letting the MAA go to waste on an image).  

Yeah, I meant by that last sentence you quoted that one can still work and the other not, but they still use the same throw number - whereas if there were different throws for each, the chance both spells would take effect would go down but the chance of the enemy getting hit would increase overall.  So, let's say the target needs to make an 8 vs the FoD, and a 12 vs Spook.  If the throw is an 8 or lower, s/he loses vs both, & 9-12, only Spook sticks.  So, the target has 40% chance of succeeding vs both spells.  Whereas if the throws were separate, he would have only a 24% chance (0.4*0.6) of succeeding vs both (assuming their animations are the same).

Again, I might be wrong!  I don't know how to check it either.

@Belgarath - Yes, it's a very helpful thread!  If it weren't for that one, all my favorite sorc spell-pick threads would have been gone.  This one though has the advantage that it provide Saint of SInner's approach for skipping summons altogether minus Planatars (thanks for that, btw)!  If I've seen a no-Mordenkainen's Swords strategy before, I don't remember it.