466 réponses à ce sujet

[Feraele]

Drasanil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Speak for yourself. IMO it offered more in the way of RP than DAO ever did.

In DAO you actually got to choose who your character was, had more freedom developping his/her abilities and you were able to make informed descisions as to what he/she would say before saying it.

In DA2 you have no real choice of character, the classes are totally cookie-cutter, and your dialogue can essentially be summed up as such: *KIsses*, *Lawl* and *Grrrr*.

Care to explain how you get more 'RP' out of it?

Indeed ..what you said.

[Dragoonlordz]

DA2 banter while sometimes amusing it is by far not of the same quality of most comedians as far as humour goes yet it relied on that most of the time to keep you from zoning out and not caring about the bad smells following you behind (Fenris, Aveline, Merrill etc literally since never changed outfits for most of the game). Because the banter mostly relied on humour not only were the jokes not as funny as say watching a stand up comedian but it felt like the same medium akin to your listening but not taking part. The way I see it is if you are playing a party based game you need to have the ability to interact with that party not be the bystander who they will not talk too until a timed event starts and even then only at the start and end alone. During most party banter Hawke was the silent protaganist he or she never spoke to them therefore was no different to DAO with regard to having a voice or not.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:33 .

[Tirfan]

Feraele wrote...


It doesn't need to be as a Warden either...but I would like the choice, as in DA:O to be able to choose, create my own characters again, instead of a premade Bioware character, that doesn't belong at all to me and is foreign to how I would have created the character...completely.      I want to be able to connect with my characters, as I did in DA:O ....that is part of my roleplay.     I don't want a character that resembles Shepard in Mass Effect.      Keep that for the Mass Effect fans,  I am not one of them.      I am not the only person on this forum or out in the world who thinks like that for rpg.... 

Well, you are not the only one, I'm so old-school I think this is pretty much the only way to actually RP. Creating a character from scracth with the certain restrictions and limitations the genre has, but no other limitations, this includes voice - which I see just as an unnecessary barrier placed between me as the player and my character, there just is no way to get into character for me if the character is voiced. Part of the RPG experience is this, and shaping the character even after the game has started, even if this shaping happens mostly in my head, and cannot actually express it - though, DA:O did fairly well in this aspect - there was enough opportunities to express things that it allowed me to portray the development of the character, even if the world and companions didn't react to it very well.. And on intellectual level I might call bullsh*t on this being actual character development.. but when I get into character, I noticed, I don't actually care.

But then, there are other ways too and I can acknowldge them, The Witcher 2 being a good example - Geralt is very set-in-stone voiced character, and while he wasn't my character - I could really connect to him, I'm not playing him in the first person, but rather in the third, but, well, Geralt is when all is said and done, rather good and well written character. While The Witcher 2 didn't give as great RP experience as I had hoped, it was miles better than what DA2 gave, Geralt had his motivations that weren't mine to come up with being a good example, I can't do that if I'm not in character - I might try to rationalize them on some level, but at the end of the day - I couldn't care less, "This hawke wants to save Kirkwall because he lives there".. vs. "I (as the character) want to save Kirkwall because I live here" is very different for me at least.

When all is said however.. I might be too old-school. But that I think comes with being a PnP-gamer first and foremost.

[Dragoonlordz]

Tirfan wrote...

Feraele wrote...


It doesn't need to be as a Warden either...but I would like the choice, as in DA:O to be able to choose, create my own characters again, instead of a premade Bioware character, that doesn't belong at all to me and is foreign to how I would have created the character...completely.      I want to be able to connect with my characters, as I did in DA:O ....that is part of my roleplay.     I don't want a character that resembles Shepard in Mass Effect.      Keep that for the Mass Effect fans,  I am not one of them.      I am not the only person on this forum or out in the world who thinks like that for rpg.... 

Well, you are not the only one, I'm so old-school I think this is pretty much the only way to actually RP. Creating a character from scratch with the certain restrictions and limitations the genre has, but no other limitations, this includes voice - which I see just as an unnecessary barrier placed between me as the player and my character, there just is no way to get into character for me if the character is voiced. Part of the RPG experience is this, and shaping the character even after the game has started, even if this shaping happens mostly in my head, and cannot actually express it - though, DA:O did fairly well in this aspect - there was enough opportunities to express things that it allowed me to portray the development of the character, even if the world and companions didn't react to it very well.. And on intellectual level I might call bullsh*t on this being actual character development.. but when I get into character, I noticed, I don't actually care.

But then, there are other ways too and I can acknowldge them, The Witcher 2 being a good example - Geralt is very set-in-stone voiced character, and while he wasn't my character - I could really connect to him, I'm not playing him in the first person, but rather in the third, but, well, Geralt is when all is said and done, rather good and well written character. While The Witcher 2 didn't give as great RP experience as I had hoped, it was miles better than what DA2 gave, Geralt had his motivations that weren't mine to come up with being a good example, I can't do that if I'm not in character - I might try to rationalize them on some level, but at the end of the day - I couldn't care less, "This hawke wants to save Kirkwall because he lives there".. vs. "I (as the character) want to save Kirkwall because I live here" is very different for me at least.

When all is said however.. I might be too old-school. But that I think comes with being a PnP-gamer first and foremost.

I'm just like you a first persona role player as preference opposed to third persona (fixed protaganist with limited scope of applying RP) regarding increasing enjoyment of the RP element. However where Geralt was a fixed protaganist aka established he actually had vast amounts of history from both books and previous game so it felt right and was not emersion breaking as someone who knew his backstory from other media and had both met and had many interactions with a great deal of the reappearing characters in TW2 from TW1 as example such like Seigfried, Triss, Dandilion and many more.

Where Hawke was nothing more than a 'drag and drop hero' even his family was nothing more than something you step in and drag along through the game since no backstory was given prior to meeting them and even after hardly any interactoins delved into the family aspect from childhood to getting to know them as a family they were just NPCs that sulked and moaned a lot and would gladly have fed all of them to the ogre at the start.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:58 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Realmzmaster wrote...

TW2 does not appeal to me. I played both Witcher 1 and 2. The same reason I find Elder Scrolls lacking there is no party. No one to interact with and no interaction in the party because there is no party.
You say that DA2 has less party interection than DAO which may or may not be correct. I found the interaction to be fine. There is very little or none in the Witcher 2 or Elder Scroll games. I have played most if not all of the big and small named CRPGs. I like Bioware CRPGs because of that dimension.

This is one of the reasons why I like Bio games so much and I think that creating great and memorable characters are one of BioWare's greater strengths. As a result of that I often end up feeling alone or at least missing that part in RPG's that lack that type of interaction.  

[Realmzmaster]

Tirfan wrote...

Feraele wrote...


It doesn't need to be as a Warden either...but I would like the choice, as in DA:O to be able to choose, create my own characters again, instead of a premade Bioware character, that doesn't belong at all to me and is foreign to how I would have created the character...completely.      I want to be able to connect with my characters, as I did in DA:O ....that is part of my roleplay.     I don't want a character that resembles Shepard in Mass Effect.      Keep that for the Mass Effect fans,  I am not one of them.      I am not the only person on this forum or out in the world who thinks like that for rpg.... 

Well, you are not the only one, I'm so old-school I think this is pretty much the only way to actually RP. Creating a character from scracth with the certain restrictions and limitations the genre has, but no other limitations, this includes voice - which I see just as an unnecessary barrier placed between me as the player and my character, there just is no way to get into character for me if the character is voiced. Part of the RPG experience is this, and shaping the character even after the game has started, even if this shaping happens mostly in my head, and cannot actually express it - though, DA:O did fairly well in this aspect - there was enough opportunities to express things that it allowed me to portray the development of the character, even if the world and companions didn't react to it very well.. And on intellectual level I might call bullsh*t on this being actual character development.. but when I get into character, I noticed, I don't actually care.

But then, there are other ways too and I can acknowldge them, The Witcher 2 being a good example - Geralt is very set-in-stone voiced character, and while he wasn't my character - I could really connect to him, I'm not playing him in the first person, but rather in the third, but, well, Geralt is when all is said and done, rather good and well written character. While The Witcher 2 didn't give as great RP experience as I had hoped, it was miles better than what DA2 gave, Geralt had his motivations that weren't mine to come up with being a good example, I can't do that if I'm not in character - I might try to rationalize them on some level, but at the end of the day - I couldn't care less, "This hawke wants to save Kirkwall because he lives there".. vs. "I (as the character) want to save Kirkwall because I live here" is very different for me at least.

When all is said however.. I might be too old-school. But that I think comes with being a PnP-gamer first and foremost.

I could not connect with Geralt. TW2 also threw out my LI (Shani) from Witcher 1 without any explanation. Witcher 1 had the I got amnesia cliche. The books do not matter becuase  many gamers have not read them so there is no backstory. If you did not play Witcher 1 you will have very little backstory.

More family backstory in DA2 would have improved the story. I had no trouble playing Hawke and I am also an old PnP gamer having started with the original D & D.
But as I say your opinion and mileage my vary.

[Tirfan]

^ Well, I didn't play the original witcher nor have I read the books - Just by reading the journal, quest descriptions and taking what I could from the discussion, I found it very easy to get an grasp on what kind of man Geralt is, who he is, what, in a nutshell, he is about.

And I really thought all of us PnP-guys were also part of the Silent Protagonist Alliance, interesting question though, I'm I in the minority or you?

Me, I started with AD&D 2nd edition if I recall correctly.. too long time.

[Sutekh]

Tirfan wrote...

And I really thought all of us PnP-guys were also part of the Silent Protagonist Alliance, interesting question though, I'm I in the minority or you?

PnP guy here too (or girl, tba) and enjoying the VO a lot. So why, if I may ask, did you think that?

[Tirfan]

^ Most of the PnP-folk, who have said it here, or at least so that I've noticed it, have been in favor of the silent protagonist, other thing might be that I'm maybe projecting my own experiences on how VO restricts my roleplaying and how most of that stems from my PnP-playing and getting into-character routines.

[Dragoonlordz]

Nah, your accurate to a degree Tirfan, in the sense that VO forces more the third perspective that upon hearing someone else's voice it distances the character from your own persona you wish to project onto the character. As for example I empose myself within the RP and a silent protaganist is not actually silent because as I read, I read aloud in my head akin to hear my own voice upon as the character which allows me to RP or integrate myself as a character in the world of which I'm playing.

Its the difference between playing as yourself in those fantasy worlds or playing as someone else's interpretation, persona of the character. No matter what choices you make if there is a VO then that voice is never your own choice and therefore is always someone else. While having a VO for most can be overcome by ignoring the VO or pretending you sound like that for people who RP like I do and there are quite a few of us on here, it just becomes one more boundary that detracts from the style of RPing we enjoy the most.

When I RP I like to role play myself within the world that was created while others role play as imaginary other people within that world.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:32 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Drasanil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Speak for yourself. IMO it offered more in the way of RP than DAO ever did.

In DAO you actually got to choose who your character was, had more freedom developping his/her abilities and you were able to make informed descisions as to what he/she would say before saying it.

In DA2 you have no real choice of character, the classes are totally cookie-cutter, and your dialogue can essentially be summed up as such: *KIsses*, *Lawl* and *Grrrr*.

Care to explain how you get more 'RP' out of it?

Care to explain how only having three options crippled your imagination?  It never bothered me, or people who really enjoy RP.  Since the majority of the dialogue choices in DAO where flavor text only, nothing is lost by having fewer options in DA2.  I'm still able to experience the story and enjoy Hawke's interactions.  DA2 presents less option but thanks to the voice and the dialogue, each has sizzle and steak, which is far more entertaining than playing DAO and having your choice of colored candy water.

You can pretend the steak is candy water, and you can pretend the candy water is steak.  It comes down to how much of a crutch your imagination needs.  RPers with great imaginations weren't bothered by DA2's problems.  We just RP'd around 'em. 

[Dragoonlordz]

I am an RPer with a truly magnificent imagination of epic proportions and I was bothered by DA2's problems.

There is however a line you cross between RPing and plainly making excuses for a flawed game. Where comes to a point you have to use your imagination so much you would have been better off not playing at all because you have already had to make most of the things up yourself to cover the vast amount of shortfalls within a title.

If developers relied on people who used their imaginations that much as with DA2 drag and drop family and making excuses for lack of interactions between Hawke and his or her mother before All That Remains quest then the developers might aswell give people a blank disc with a pretty picture on it and a title on the case, nothing more and leave the rest to your imagination.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:43 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The timed diagolue starters when you could only really delve deeper into your companions stories at [ x ] times during the game and inbetween was nothing but banter really that your main character for the most part was excluded was a down side for me.

Given the chocie between DAO's endless party chat clickfest and DA2's timed chat windows, I choose the timed chat windows.  They feel so much more organic than the clickfest from DAO/NWN/BG.  It might be that the part that draws me most to the "staged chats" is how natural they feel compared to having everyone standing around in the same place each time repeating 90% of the same lines.  There is totally a trade off between the ease of chat (clickfest wins) versus the fun of chats (staged chats win), but I think the timed chats win.  It just needs a couple more passes through the old developement cycle before it's perfect.

Myself, I would like to see little icons on the HUD during down times when Hawke is running around.  Those icons would indicate that someone is thinking about Hawke, or could use a good talking too.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Tirfan wrote...

^ Most of the PnP-folk, who have said it here, or at least so that I've noticed it, have been in favor of the silent protagonist,

Don't think "most" is true.  I've PnP'd for 24 years now and in all that time I've had one silent character.  Who wants to sit silently when your friends are all around you?  I've always been in favor of a voice protagonist, cause damn, when else can you flirt with your best friend's girlfriend?  :lol:

other thing might be that I'm maybe projecting my own experiences on how
VO restricts my roleplaying and how most of that stems from my
PnP-playing and getting into-character routines

I had a friend that GM'd when I did not.  He had a deep, gravely voice.  Yet when he was doing the dialogue for a the queen of the land my friends and I made up, it was never really a distaction.  Sure, when the session was just starting or winding down we'd give him **** about it, but otherwise the voice I hear-- be it GM or be it voice actor-- doesn't change the world I imagine and experience.

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:47 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I am an RPer with a truly magnificent imagination of epic proportions and I was bothered by DA2's problems.

You just disproved your own assertion.  ^_^

[Tirfan]

.. I don't even know where to begin with.
The point was "silent" protagonist in crpg:s; I actually haven't played a mute character in PnP.. could be fun though, I have to try that once we finish our current campaign, most likely in a one-shot however.

Flirting with your best friends girlfriends character in a PnP would absolute win - but given how The Girlfriend is part the group it might be a bit problematic - the occasion would need to be timed so that she isn't having that time of the month. I can Imagine the nagging I would get after that.

Edit: seriously, I don't understand why I bother with this, especially with you.

Modifié par Tirfan, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:50 .

[Dragoonlordz]

@Rinpoch

In life if your constantly waiting around for someone to ring you when they want to speak and not the other way around which is like DA2 where you only interact when they want, I don't see anything natural about it.

While there came a point in DAO where repetition kicked in due to your party members only have so much to say the obvious solution is give them more to say or reactive personalility that if you keep pushing someone for information over and over and over again sooner or later they start to get annoyed which then leads to a leave me alone sort of attitude for short period of time, however in life and as should be in game you should not be waiting around 24/7 for timed conversations alone.

Like I said its like having the ability to pick up the phone and speak to someone or sitting there in silence waiting for them to call you all the time. I prefer the former you seem to prefer the latter Rinny.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:57 .

[Dragoonlordz]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I am an RPer with a truly magnificent imagination of epic proportions and I was bothered by DA2's problems.

You just disproved your own assertion.  ^_^

*Yawn* You think so do you? Thats nice...

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Tirfan wrote...

.. I don't even know where to begin with.

Tirfan wrote...

VO restricts my roleplaying and how most of that stems from my PnP-playing and getting into-character routines.

My point bluntly: It is BS that a voiced CRPG character can ruin an experienced PnP RPer's game.  When I PnP RP, I can hear an elegent female character even when a male GM voices her.  There is zero difference in DA2.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

In life if your constantly waiting around for someone to ring you when they want to speak and not the other way around which is like DA2 where you only interact when they want, I don't see anything natural about it.

Good point!  However it is more natural than everyone standing stock still in a camp, telling you the same thing again and again.  That's why I think timed chats win and static chats fail.  It's not perfect, but time chats are better.

While there came a point in DAO where repetition kicked in due to your party members only have so much to say the obvious solution is give them more to say

That's a fair solution, but I think a better solution is to shorten the game.  Better 25 hours tight and packed with cut scenes than 40 hours of flabby text based chatter.

Like I said its like having the ability to pick up the phone and speak to someone or sitting there in silence waiting for them to call you all the time. I prefer the former you seem to prefer the latter Rinny.

You make a fine point in general, however, in the case of DA2, the point is wrong.  There are several points in DA2 when people "pick up the phone" and drag Hawke into the dialogue.  Aveline drops in on you, Bohdan tracks you down, you run into Sebastion, people send you letters constantly...  I think you might want to reexamine your idea, because it doesn't fit the content you find in DA2.

[Dragoonlordz]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

.. I don't even know where to begin with.

Tirfan wrote...

VO restricts my roleplaying and how most of that stems from my PnP-playing and getting into-character routines.

My point bluntly: It is BS that a voiced CRPG character can ruin an experienced PnP RPer's game.  When I PnP RP, I can hear an elegent female character even when a male GM voices her.  There is zero difference in DA2.

He said restricts I said detracts, neither of us said 'ruins' so clearly you have been using your imagination in regards to what we actually said too. There is an affect one that people end up having to counter in order to RP the way they want which is what we both said. This has an affect on RPing. You do not imagine a female voice when you hear a male one unless you actually have a physical mental problem as you hear what you hear and your brain processes sound in the way that that sound was heard.

That's a fair solution, but I think a better solution is to shorten
the game.  Better 25 hours tight and packed with cut scenes than 40
hours of flabby text based chatter.

Sorry but I like longer games not shorter ones. Rent a movie it's like one long cutscene and seems to fill the description you desire in that comment. A game should have more hours playing and less watching, difference between taking part and watching a film. Cutscenes should only be used to bring closure to something or if needed build something up, for the most part by a long way a game should be played and not watched. I would gladly play a 40 hour game with pure text if the story is good than a 25 hour game aka cutscene heavy one upon where the story was also good.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 juillet 2011 - 12:22 .

[Sutekh]

Tirfan wrote...

^ Most of the PnP-folk, who have said it here, or at least so that I've noticed it, have been in favor of the silent protagonist, other thing might be that I'm maybe projecting my own experiences on how VO restricts my roleplaying and how most of that stems from my PnP-playing and getting into-character routines.

OK. It makes sense. For me, I don't play silent protagonists "with my own voice in my head", if only because I mostly play males, and I'm a she. So Manly Mahariel over there would sound really weird if I did so. I also don't play "me". Never, be it PnP or CRPG. I imagine the intonation, though, but it has more to do with the text per se. Plus, in most CRPG with "silent protagonists", the PC does have a voice in battle, so it would clash with that too.

In PnP, where I also play mostly males, I actually have to get over my feminine voice (I'm used to it, so no big deal). I also play with men RPing females, or DM / ST RPing all sorts of NPCs, and I've become used to get over that too. So, basically, in a CRPG, if the voice & acting is fine and match my vision of the character, as it is, for me, the case for male Hawke, I'm delighted. If it doesn't, I get over it.

[Tirfan]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

.. I don't even know where to begin with.

Tirfan wrote...

VO restricts my roleplaying and how most of that stems from my PnP-playing and getting into-character routines.

My point bluntly: It is BS that a voiced CRPG character can ruin an experienced PnP RPer's game.  When I PnP RP, I can hear an elegent female character even when a male GM voices her.  There is zero difference in DA2.

So you are saying tha people can't be different? That some people may be thrown off character more easily, regardless of experience? That some poeple, yet again, regardless of experience, have different routines or no routines at all that they need to go trough to actually get INTO character? And that a VO can't have the effect that you are unable to go trough these routines?

Because I know - I have my routines, I still have to go trough them, it is part of who I am, and I can't get into character without them. Call me unexperienced then - I call bullsh*t on that, I, for the record, am not very easily thrown off character, the getting into character part was difficult for me in the beginning, then I started to get the hang of it by doing certain things, concentrating on certain aspects of the character, changing my own bodylanguage to suit the character, and I can admit, if I'm denied the chance to do these things - I can't get into character, it is still quite hard for me, no matter that I have many years of experience in PnP.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There is an affect one that people end up having to counter in order to RP the way they want which is what we both said. This has an affect on RPing. You do not imagine a female voice when you hear a male one unless you actually have a physical mental problem as you hear what you hear and your brain processes sound in the way that that sound was heard.

You might think of imagination as a mental illness, but I can promise you it is a real thing.  There is zero impact on a real PnP RPer hearing a voiced Hawke.  :lol:  You're seeing part and filling the rest in with pretend.  It's a lot of fun.  ;)

Sorry but I like longer games not shorter ones. Rent a movie it's like one long cutscene and seems to fill the description you desire in that comment. A game should have more hours playing less watching, difference between taking part and watching, games are for playing films are for watching. Cutscenes should only be used to bring closure to something or if needed build something up, for the most part by a long way a game should be played and not watched.

You're in the minority.  The games you like are being made less and less and the games I like are being made more and more.  Them's the facts.

:lol:

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Tirfan wrote...

So you are saying tha people can't be different? That some people may be thrown off character more easily, regardless of experience? That some poeple, yet again, regardless of experience, have different routines or no routines at all that they need to go trough to actually get INTO character? And that a VO can't have the effect that you are unable to go trough these routines?

Of course people are different.  You said you thought most PnP folks were anti-VO.  I don't think it's most.  I don't even think it's "some."  Old school PnPers are not likely to be bothered by VO.  We've been playing RPGs with voiced PCs and NPCs forever.  How could a voiced character possibly bother "most" of us?

Sure, I guess it will bother some people, but "Most?"  No, not most.