466 réponses à ce sujet

[Pious_Augustus]

Redcoat wrote...

A lot of people are saying that Dragon Age is "dead" to them, but that's not entirely true for me; it's only mostly dead. Provided the developers work their magic on the third game, they'll be able to bring it back to life. But I'm a bit worried about the direction the series has been taking after Origins. Awakening was mediocre, the DLC ranged from passable to bad, and DA2 did nothing to reverse the trend. I fear that the franchise may turn out like Highlander - a strong first effort which is never again repeated.

That said, I'm quite interested in the upcoming DA2 DLC. Since BioWare is by now fully aware of what people disliked about DA2 (having heard it over and over and over), any future DLC will undoubtedly take this criticism into account.

I agree with you, I didn’t like the direction of Awakenings people were upset with having to grind a dungeon and have a person in the party and talk to a random object just to talk to your companion

[Ronin2006]

Jamie_edmo wrote...

Great post, I agree with you about reused areas being an anchor for critisism, the problem with DA:2, and the franchise at the moment is that they've changed the tone, from the "classic fairy-tale atmosphere" as bEVEsthda says, to this new fast-paced "super-sexy" silliness, that instead of giving Dragon Age an identity (which is what bioware said they were going for) it takes it away as it blends into almost JRPG/anime territory.

I really hope that someone from Bioware is able to catch on to this sentiment from their customers and possibly do something about it.

I have been contemplating writing another long post about this very topic, but don't know if I can be bothered as I doubt Bioware would really listen.  They seem to have a slight case of selective hearing when it comes to criticism of this game.

[Jamie_edmo]

@Ronin2006, thats exactly they way I feel, I know some people on here really like the new style of DA2, but changing a franchise with a successful (critically and financially) first game, in just over a year is very risky and could end up being damaging to the franchise, which may be the case, we'll probably have to wait and see how DA3 performs to really know.

I hate to sound like I'm demanding bioware change their game to suit me, but at the same time I bought origins for a reason and it feels like its been totally changed with DA2.

I would probably been more "forgiving" if it was a spin-off or if origins had of felt dated which it didn't, but anyway its bioware's game at the end of the day and they can make it however they like, its just disappointing that they didn't just refine origins rather than totally changing it imo.

Modifié par Jamie_edmo, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:46 .

[Tirfan]

Jamie_edmo wrote...

@Ronin2006, thats exactly they way I feel, I know some people on here really like the new style of DA2, but changing a franchise with a successful (critically and financially) first game, in just over than a year is very risky and could end up being damaging to the franchise, which may be the case, we'll probably have to wait and see how DA3 performs to really know.

I hate to sound like I'm demanding bioware change their game to suit me, but at the same time I bought origins for a reason and it feels like its been totally changed with DA2.

I would probably been more "forgiving" if it was a spin-off or if origins had of felt dated which it didn't, but anyway its bioware's game at the end of the day and they can make it however they like, its just disappointing that they didn't just refine origins rather than totally changing it imo.

^ This. I have arrived at the point where I have realized I'm not the kind of gamer Bioware wants to please anymore, and I've accepted it, if DA3 has a good storyline, interesting companions and the combat actually fun I will buy it, but if not, I think it is time for me to say goodbye, and thanks for the fish. I'm already on the look for other developers to satisfy my crpg-needs, and well, if I don't find any, weell, at least there is BG & BGII and Origins to go back to, and possibly some other games to look forward to and play, from genres, which I however don't like as much as RPG:s.

[Dariuszp]

After taking a long break from DA II i tried the game again. I was thinking - It's Bioware game. It cannot be so bad. So I played it.
Gues what. It's still bad. After recent patch is even worst. It's easier now. Exploding bodies was replaced by death animation that is not fluid. It look LAME.

After doing some quest like god dam machine (edge of the map, click on glowing arrow, kill waves of monsters, ger reward, edge of the map, click on glowing arrow, kill waves of monsters, ger reward...) i just give up. No DLC, nothing can help this poor game.

If this is road that Bioware is going then I will choose another one.

[erynnar]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

I feel the same. Well, perhaps I'm a bit less angry.
I really loved Origins, and also enjoyed Awakening, despite its flaws. I even bought all the DLC, though some of the content was truly awful (Golems, Witch Hunt...).
Witch Hunt started to make me angry...with all the marketing promising "All your questions will be answered, blahblah"...and then it turned out to be a buggy mess which answered nothing and instead delivered even more questions.

When DA2 was announced I was sad to know that the Warden's story wouldn't continue...
I didn't like the idea of a fixed human character, but I said "Hey, let's give it a shot, maybe it'll be something epic!", and then...it started to look more and more like Mass Effect, and it was pretty obvious that it would be a rushed job. Nevertheless, I remained optimistic with the idea that "Bioware cannot screw it up, they will deliver something wonderful".
Alas, they didn't.

DA2 felt like a spit on my face.
For me, it's a rushed, soulless exercise, without passion or real desire to be something more than just a hack-and-slash with a dialogue wheel and a false sense of interaction, because you cannot change anything...NOTHING changes. Recycled areas, generic waves of enemies...an unfocused and messy plot full of holes and bad choices, retcons, the art direction is a mixed bag, bugs, clipping...almost everything it's a recipe for disaster.
There are some good things...I like the music, despite being mostly uninspired and forgettable, and some characters, like Merrill or Varric. There are some good moments, like the Scarface parody, but they're just little moments of brilliance drowned in a sea of boredom.
I do know that Origins isn't perfect (I've never said that), and that Awakening isn't widely appreciated, but they're far better than DA2. And I truly, truly, truly wanted to love DA2, but now I just want to forget about it...

I don't want anyone to lose their job or anything like that, I don't want Bioware to come out and say "We made a crappy game, please forgive us", no, no. But I'd really appreciate them to stop saying "We made innovations and some people couldn't handle them" or "We are really proud of DA2", come on...You guys seriously cannot say that with a straight face. I know nobody would talk trash about their baby, but it's really annoying, just as it is annoying to read the 100000th thread of "DA2 SUCKS".

I know some people truly liked DA2, and I have no quarrel with them. They're free to enjoy whatever they like. What's truly sad is that Bioware divided their fanbase...and I doubt that anything they make from now on will satisfy both sides.

Sigh.

Both you and Redcoat summed it up for me.

[nubbers666]

i have said how i felt about the game on here and vented and now it is just meh live and learn lol
still do a run through on it here and there but its more for when i am bored and nothing else to do

[Merilsell]

I stopped caring for the game, briefly after I de-installed it from my HDD and stashed the gaming disc in the darkest corner of my flat. Hell I don't even know where the game now is...and I don't care *shrug*

Frankly said I moved on (or rather back to Origins and my FF) and have no (real) desire to discuss DA2 anymore. It became boring and repetitive to do that, just like the game itself (look its THAT cave...again )

[Serpieri Nei]

My thoughts have not change and it’s very doubtful they will change when faced with a game that is just mediocre. I would rather hate a game or love a game than straddle the line in the middle. Instead of trying to expand or grow the genre Bioware decided to remove player choice and customization which I consider a huge step in the wrong direction. If I really wanted a game like that then I can simply play God of War or Bayonette on my PS3 and not DA2 since it failed to be even considered an action game unlike Witcher 2 which proved that action and RPG elements can be combined without losing quality. Oh well at least DA2 it isn’t on the bottom of the pile and had some ambition to be the King of Mediocrity.

So where did Bioware go wrong? Well recycling more than Green Peace didn’t help and coupled with the wave mechanic that assailed players with mystical ninjas and paratroopers definitely was not the way to go but sadly the games flaws do not end there. The game focused on a frame narrative that killed any plot cohesion and made Hawke look like some kind out of town bungler that participated in three short stories that were disjointed. And let’s forgot how we were dropped into a lifeless city that did not change in the slightest over a 7 year period and how NPC’s were as lifeless as the game itself. Honestly, I can go on the game is deeply flawed but it would just take less space on the page if you just took the time to read the two hundred pages of constructive criticism located on the forums.

DA2 was clearly rushed and stripped of what made Origins great and to add insult to injury Bioware copy /pasted several elements from Mass Effect instead of taking Dragon Age II down its own unique path to greatness and instead will forever be dwarfed in Origin’s shadow. So what can be done to fix this? Patches? DLC’s? Lots of tender loving care? Or a desire by Bioware to somehow address the many flaws?

Time will tell. And no I won`t be paying money to address the games flaws.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:55 .

[Salaya]

Im not sure ._.

I felt confident about what developers had told us in the forums. But after trying to play DA2 again, and being incapable of going through the prologue... well, I think DA is a dead RPG-franchise. Whatever they put in the upcoming DLC... DA2 wont stop being what it is (a plain action rpg with ridiculous animations). 

I'm sorry BW, but count me as one of those old-fans who "goes on" and accepts DA2 for what it is. If this is future for CRPG, I'll look to other franchises or classic oldies. I, for certain, wont pay a single $ on DA2 dlc or similar sequels.

So yes, It seems that I'm still feeling very disappointed. 

P.D.- At least, I hope you keep the good work for Mass Effect You still have me hooked to that universe.

Modifié par Salaya, 03 juillet 2011 - 07:57 .

[Big I]

I'm not as angry as I was,  but I'm still massively dissapointed in the game. For me it boils down to this -  I don't care about Hawke and I don't care about Kirkwall. When I finished Origins I found myself actually interested in things like Orzammar, the alienage and the Cousland family. Deciding the fate of the Anvil of the Void or the Urn of Sacred Ashes were great because it showed that these events happened in the wider context of Thedas, and that the player could effect that context in some way (how would the Anvil affect Orzammar, or the Urn the Chantry?). I also liked that companions had lives of their own that the player could drastically influence. Alistair could stay in the Wardens or become king, Leliana could dedicate herself to the Chantry or being a bard, etc.


I got none of that in DA2. You can affect a companion's emotional state, but that's it. Anders is always a terrorist, Fenris always blames magic, etc. Romance Alistair in the right way in Origins and hey, you get to be queen/mistress. Romance Anders and nothing changes. Nothing changes.


As for the setting, why should I care about the plight of Ferelden refugees when I'm never given the opportunity to help them despite being rich and powerful? Why should I care about templars and mages when the game doesn't care what I support in quests like Best Served Cold or the endgame? The only thing I halfway found interesting was the qunari plot, because hey, you actually had options in how to resolve it. Even there I felt it was missing a "help the qunari take over" option.


Hawke's portrayal and story don't help. We're told that family is important, only for the game to treat them as disposable. We're told that Hawke is pivotal to the story, only for his presense in the main plots (idol, qunari, templar/mages) to be almost ancillary to their resolution. If Hawke's not there, Meredith and Orsino would have dealt with the Arishok. If Hawke's not there, Anders would still do the same thing in Act 3. Hawke doesn't matter.


It also doesn't help that there are so many unaswered questions about Hawke and Hawke's motivations. Why does a family with an apostate member stay in templar central once the Blight is over and they've got some money together? If Bethany is taken by the Circle, why doesn't Hawke get her out? For that matter, how'd that happen anyway? Why is it Mage Hawke can escape templar notice/buy them off for themself but Rogue Hawke can't help Bethany do the same? If Hawke has lost all their family, is an apostate and has no close rivals or friends in Kirkwall why are they still there? In short, why does Hawke care so much for Kirkwall? If I'm playing a character with an established backstory I expect their motivations to be transparent. Otherwise what's the point?


Both Origins and DA2 had endgames that were static - no matter what you did in Origins you always end up fighting the Archdemon, and no matter what you did in DA2 you always end up in the Gallows. The difference is that Origins had a crystal clear motivation for the character to get there and allowed players the agency to determine how they and their companions got there. DA2 had neither. That's why no matter what DLC they create or what other Dragon Age games they develop DA2 will always remain for me the sequel that couldn't deliver.

[EDI8Joker]

Tirfan wrote...

Jamie_edmo wrote...

@Ronin2006, thats exactly they way I feel, I know some people on here really like the new style of DA2, but changing a franchise with a successful (critically and financially) first game, in just over than a year is very risky and could end up being damaging to the franchise, which may be the case, we'll probably have to wait and see how DA3 performs to really know.

I hate to sound like I'm demanding bioware change their game to suit me, but at the same time I bought origins for a reason and it feels like its been totally changed with DA2.

I would probably been more "forgiving" if it was a spin-off or if origins had of felt dated which it didn't, but anyway its bioware's game at the end of the day and they can make it however they like, its just disappointing that they didn't just refine origins rather than totally changing it imo.

^ This. I have arrived at the point where I have realized I'm not the kind of gamer Bioware wants to please anymore, and I've accepted it, if DA3 has a good storyline, interesting companions and the combat actually fun I will buy it, but if not, I think it is time for me to say goodbye, and thanks for the fish. I'm already on the look for other developers to satisfy my crpg-needs, and well, if I don't find any, weell, at least there is BG & BGII and Origins to go back to, and possibly some other games to look forward to and play, from genres, which I however don't like as much as RPG:s.

I feel the same.  Bioware has a long history of producing quality RPG's, so if they return to their former glory in DA3, I'll be right there to continue my DA journey.  Unfortunately, I don't expect this outcome.  Bioware (or EA, or both) made a decision to take this franchise in a different direction, and while I believe a limited development timeline impacted the final product significantly, another 6-12 months of effort would not have reversed the design philosophy.  Bioware sought to please a different audience than they did with DA:O, leaving many Origins fans a little confused, surprised, and perhaps ultimately, alienated.

I don't visit forums for any other game, and never have.  Yet I keep returning here almost daily (in part to beat boredom at work), seemingly looking for answers as to 'why' DA2 wasn't DA:O2.  The best answer I've had to date is in the quote above, "I'm not the kind of gamer Bioware wants to please anymore."  CDProjekt did Bioware no favors releasing such a marvelous sequel shortly following the DA2 release.  I find myself constantly in awe of my TW2 experience.  It's almost like medicinal RPG redemption following DA2.  I'm still coming to terms with this, as upon entering 2011, CDProjekt was barely on my radar, and yet now, they may have become the RPG developer I follow most closely.  There is a part of me that believes Bioware is okay with this outcome.

I will say, this thread is beyond refreshing.  I've grown so tired of the usual posts explaining how DA2 is the best ever, the worst ever or just misunderstood (I'm looking at you Bioware employees).  So thanks to the posters who have something objective and intelligent to say, and especially to the OP for inspiring the discussion.

[Cody211282]

I still feel like the game is a horrible let down a was rushed out the door to milk fans for money.

[Mr.House]

bEVEsthda wrote...
The people who created the BG & DA:O atmosphere and understood the DA universe have left Bioware.

Wrong. Gaider and Lukes are still part of Bioware.

Modifié par Mr.House, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:12 .

[Sanunes]

I think I still feel disappointed in Dragon Age 2, but my disappointment is the feeling that the game could have been so much more then what it was released as.

Too many games from too many developers over the last few years have left me with the same feeling, but BioWare seems to be one of the few that is actually listening to us, so I have some hope that Dragon Age 3 (if its made) will be a better game because of the missteps of Dragon Age 2.

[Lucav5]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I'm not as angry as I was,  but I'm still massively dissapointed in the game... [snip]

This is a great post, and I agree with almost everything you said. I think da2 is a decent game, but suffers in a direct comparison to da:o. The journey to get to the endgame in da:o felt much more... organic. It also deserves mention that the oft quoted annoyances with the game, such as enemy waves and backflipping templars and re-used areas, get more and more annoying as the game progresses. It wouldnt bother me as much as it does, save for the fact that these flaws are so egregious.

Da2 does do some things well, the combat is fast flowing and has a certain charm, the dialogue wheel works well and the alignment shifts correspond really well to the voice actors work (in most cases). A fully voiced protagonist is a good change and the framed narrative is a bold experiment which could have worked much better with a fully realized world to build on. All in all I am just... disappointed with the way the game turned out, they changed a number of things and did not budget enough time to make it work. From any other publisher this game would be solid, even good, but from bioware it just ends up... disappointing.

Modifié par Lucav5, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:16 .

[Tirfan]

^^ But Knowles left, I should have known at that point that I should not buy this game, but, what can I do, I was a Bioware-fanboy and didn't believe they could screw this game up, that it still would be made for gamers like me too, despite the changes.

[EDI8Joker]

Tirfan wrote...

^^ But Knowles left, I should have known at that point that I should not buy this game, but, what can I do, I was a Bioware-fanboy and didn't believe they could screw this game up, that it still would be made for gamers like me too, despite the changes.

Yeah, looking back, the signs were there.  But I felt the same, and expected the same.  I so miss quality RPG's, like Midway's Ms. Pac-Man.

[caridounette]

 I have indeed cooled down about DA2 now that a few months have passed. So far, i have completed the game 1 and a half time (i stopped on my second playthrough to wait for Anders rivalmance ending to get fixed and havent gone back to it yet). The more time passes the more i feel like replaying, maybe ill go for it after a few DLCs are offered and i feel like things are back on track for the DA universe.

The more time passes the less i remember the gameplay issues.  I tend to forget how tidious the wave mechanic felt ( specially at night), the endless map reuse and what the death animations looked like. ( The same thing happend to me with TW. I forgot how horrible the gamepay until i gave it an other try). But i can stick through some muddy gameplay if i have a story to tell (i played both DAO and ME1 a few times).

On the other hand, i still remember how wrong the game felt on the storytelling level. Making a game about how a main character reacts to events instead of making it about how he influences them is a pretty solid idea on the intellectual plan. Hell all the people i explained the game to thought it was a brilliant original idea. Except it isnt. When you have to sit through 40 hours of it it jsut feels wrong. I would have like if it did not. But i got the same feeling sticking through the game as i get when i stick with a series ' just cause i want to know if the hero dies at the end'. Games, as interactive mediums, cant rely on that to push through.

Also, i am left with the feeling that the game was too ambicious for what it gave (maybe the devs were a bit too transparent for the own good, saying things like ' 10 year game span' and the 'awsome button') With just as much dialogue as DAO, a completely static city and very few opportunities for Hawke to get invested, how can the player get the feeling they played lived 7 years of history? 3 at most would have felt believable. To me the characters were as fun and finely crafted as any other bioware companion. But did their story arc made sense on a 7 year span? Not at all.The fact that mageHawke can jsut breeze through the templars/mages situation and cast fireballs through the city for years still feels unbelievable. I also cant figure why my character cant act have any political or business ties. Having been in the city for all that time, it jsut doesnt make sense.

in the end, i have a hard time finding a new story id like to tell in the DA2 setting. I dont have that nagging desire like i did with DAO, ME1 and specially ME2.

So thats DA2 for me so far.

[Simiancustard]

I've certainly moved on and I'm definitely not as enraged as I was when I first forced myself to complete DA][. I've come to accept that I've either outgrown Bioware, or that Bioware no longer sees me as its target demographic. There is peace in that simple realization, but a pang of sadness remains that there is now one less developer to be excited about, or whose games I can look forward to.

But c'est la vie. Fortunately, I have a large library of old games to re-explore and I'm sure a new developer will come around with a sterling WRPG or CRPG to keep me happy.

[NedPepper]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Redcoat wrote...
That said, I'm quite interested in the upcoming DA2 DLC. Since BioWare is by now fully aware of what people disliked about DA2 (having heard it over and over and over), any future DLC will undoubtedly take this criticism into account.

If the DLC patches the elves and especially the darkspawn in the main game, as well as exploding enemies / cartwheeling templars / enemy waves, does not come with surprise dialogue bottlenecked into diplomatic/sarcastic/aggressive, removes JRPG elements altogether and fixes a few other things, I might have a look at it. I am, however, fully aware that this is highly improbable.

The game series is not dead to me, but I will not spend more money on DA2. I'll also look at DA3 and the feedback from fans very carefully before considering a purchase.

I've been playing on the X-Box, and the patches released have a definite impact on the game.  Is it just me, or does the city look more populated?  Also, enemy fights are different.  Feels more polished, overall.

[Luvinn]

I'm still very disappointed in DA2.

First, I'm disappointed in the 'new' direction that they are taking with the Dragon Age series. It was a great game that just needed a few minor tweaks, but instead they hit it with a wrecking ball.

Secondly, I was disappointed in the fact that this was the first game I ever pre-ordered in my life. I usually never do this as i see it pointless to pay for something i can't use for x amount of time. As a pc gamer i can just digitally download it the day it comes out and go eat lunch. But for this, I figured, "Well, every Bioware game has been great so far, might as well show them some support". Needless to say i will be waiting on reviews before i buy/pass on DA3. ME3 will be a day one buy though.

Lord_Valandil wrote...


I don't want anyone to lose
their job or anything like that, I don't want Bioware to come out and
say "We made a crappy game, please forgive us", no, no. But I'd really
appreciate them to stop saying "We made innovations and some people
couldn't handle them" or "We are really proud of DA2", come on...You
guys seriously cannot say that with a straight face. I know nobody would
talk trash about their baby, but it's really annoying, just as it is
annoying to read the 100000th thread of "DA2 SUCKS".

This is a great point too. I won't sit here and say DA2 sucked, it didn't. I've played games that really suck before (Superman 64 anyone), and DA2 isn't at that level. However, it wasn't good by any means. I swear, if i hear another interview where they call DA2 'innovative', or just basically use the kind of words that make us sound like we just 'didn't get it', ill punch my monitor. I mean if your kid steals some candy at the store and gets caught, i don't want to hear that he is a straight A student.

Modifié par Luvinn, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:02 .

[StarkeyKing]

I loved this game since release day...have never had a problem with it....I just wished that Supplier Achievement wasn't so hard to get...been missing alot of resources....I am gonna get it my next play thru for sure!