466 réponses à ce sujet

[erynnar]

Redcoat wrote...

erynnar wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

Well, I've seen at least one poster say that he/she would want all the codex-entries removed, which, honestly, would suck, but I wouldn't probably care too much if the interface would be like that of DA2s, It is really weird how much such a relatively small thing can suck the joy out of something I enjoyed really much with better interface.

And btw, Erynnar, Tirfan, not Trifan, takes me back to my WoW-playing days when no one in the guild could apparently learn to say Tirfan and it was always Trifan... perhaps I should change the nick.

DAMMIT! Sorry Tirfan! I actually caught my mistake on a different post to you.    And I played WoW too.  

Okay back to topic. Remove all the codex entries? Seriously? Good lord, someone who doesn't like to read. Why don't they just go play something else that doesn't require it? I certainly hope BioWare doesn't go with that suggestion. I want more not less. Including bringing back the descriptions on items.

I think the argument is not 'remove all the codex entries', but rather 'present as much of the information contained within the codex entries as you can through gameplay'. Codex entries add a lot of flavour, and I remember patting myself on the back when I found bonus content in DA:O simply by looking at the codices (I only did QA for DA:O on the Sacred Ashes plot, so I hadn't seen much more than an overview of the rest of the game by the time I got to play it as a consumer, rather than a developer). But wherever possible, I think we'd like to be giving you as much of that information through gameplay and the world around you rather than simple text infodumps. Of course, that's not to say that getting rid of the codex is in something we want to do - however, the more we can show you rather than tell you through a couple of paragraphs of text, the more alive the world feels (in my opinion).

I agree in the show don't tell, but I think DAO hit the sweet spot. I learned about things in game, that were backed up by codex. And some things I learned by reading. I loved finding little hidden treasures everywhere. I miss the details that made the world more alive and the game more fun.

DAO was a big juicy steak, DA2 was a Slim Jim. I enjoy both but one is a little more...meaty?

I understand why they would want to "show, not tell" in their approach to the Codex, but there's a limit to how much one can really "show" in the game, unless you want to have a party member who's a walking encyclopaedia.

Personally, I loved reading through all manner of obscure passages and forgotten lore in the Codices, but then again I'm probably biased towards that sort of thing. I have an English degree, which I would not have gotten if I didn't enjoy reading obscure things (reading Blind Harry's Wallace in the original Middle Scots, or Beowulf in the original Old English, was a challenge indeed!)

I have been reading since I was two, so I am totally addicted to the written word. I too love to read the codices. And because I love to read, I became a writer. ROFL! So codices work for me. 

Oh Wallace in Middles Scots and Beowulf in the original Old English? I am bow to you!  That is really cool.

[Black-Xero]

 I was never that mad to being with. Nothing changed at all but I'm still disappointed of all the hate the game is still getting on the forums.

[DarthCaine]

Beerfish wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

I knew it would be crap even before it was released, so I wasn't disappointed

More the fool you are for buying it in that case.

I know that hitting my knee with a hammer will hurt.
Whack!
Yup, it hurt!

Just because I have it registered doesn't mean I bought it...

[Cutlass Jack]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Have you guys ever considered codex entries getting unlocked in an app as you play a game? So you can read them later on your phone while away from your game?

Just wanted to say this would be a great idea. I love reading the codex but almost never when getting the entry (since, more than likely I'm in the middle of something). When I can play I'd like to be playing. But when I can't, it would be a great time to read up a little and get in the mood for the next playsession.

[DragonAddict]

I played it through twice and that's it, patches won't change anything for me.

DA2 was not a horrible game, but it wasn't even close to what DAO offered. I still give DA2 7 / 10 but DAO I give 9.5 / 10.

Too many things with DA2, too simplified, too consolized, just rushed and re-used. DA2 could of been like DAO, but continue the Warden story, Morrigan, that's what I was waiting from Witch Hunt!!!, not a new character called Hawke.

I hope this DLC for DA2 will address many issues and make the game much better than it currently is.

I hope DA3 is more like DAO and not DA2 because if it wasn't for DAO, there wouldn't of been a DA2 in the first place!!!

[Zeevico]

JohnEpler wrote...

I think the argument is not 'remove all the codex entries', but rather 'present as much of the information contained within the codex entries as you can through gameplay'. Codex entries add a lot of flavour, and I remember patting myself on the back when I found bonus content in DA:O simply by looking at the codices (I only did QA for DA:O on the Sacred Ashes plot, so I hadn't seen much more than an overview of the rest of the game by the time I got to play it as a consumer, rather than a developer). But wherever possible, I think we'd like to be giving you as much of that information through gameplay and the world around you rather than simple text infodumps. Of course, that's not to say that getting rid of the codex is in something we want to do - however, the more we can show you rather than tell you through a couple of paragraphs of text, the more alive the world feels (in my opinion).

One issue though is that books are sometimes just strewn about randomly. It makes sense to find books in a library. But outdoors, just abandoned, with no one looking for it?

I love codex entries and I think there should be more of them, but I think they should be located in plausible locations. Finding a book next to an abandoned campfire strikes me as implausible, much as, say, the number of diary entries in RPG games strike me as a little implausible.
Again, I quite like codex entries and when well written (and that's most of the time), they add to my enjoyment of the game. In fact I wished there were more in DA2 (I made a thread about this even).

I liked reading about Par Vollen for example in DAO. I also agree that where the matter is pertinent to the plot, "show don't tell" is key. For instance, we didn't a diary entry from Fenris about his time among the Magisters or life in the Imperium--he told the player about his personal experiences.

Modifié par Zeevico, 07 juillet 2011 - 09:25 .

[Kendaric Varkellen]

Nothing has changed for me. DA II simply isn't my kind of game, there are just too many things I strongly dislike about it's design (combat animations, combat pace, MMO-style boss fights, waves of reinforcements, lack of non-combat skills, UI design, etc.).

[lameduckie]

I wasn't angry about DA2 when it came out, only disappointed. Reading the PR about the innovations, now that made me angry.

[MassFrost]

I've never been mad about DA2, but I think I'll always be disappointed by it. It's not at all a terrible game, it's just not up the standard (in my opinion) that I know BioWare to be capable of. That, and I just found the story to be overwhelmingly boring. After 30 hours I couldn't find myself the least bit interested in any of the characters, aside from maybe Varric. Still looking forward to ME3, but I doubt I'll be picking up anything Dragon Age related anytime soon.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

JohnEpler wrote...
I think the argument is not 'remove all the codex entries', but rather 'present as much of the information contained within the codex entries as you can through gameplay'. Codex entries add a lot of flavour, and I remember patting myself on the back when I found bonus content in DA:O simply by looking at the codices (I only did QA for DA:O on the Sacred Ashes plot, so I hadn't seen much more than an overview of the rest of the game by the time I got to play it as a consumer, rather than a developer). But wherever possible, I think we'd like to be giving you as much of that information through gameplay and the world around you rather than simple text infodumps. Of course, that's not to say that getting rid of the codex is in something we want to do - however, the more we can show you rather than tell you through a couple of paragraphs of text, the more alive the world feels (in my opinion).

A lot of information you find in codices would bog down gameplay and dialogue, I think. While I agree it's nice to have the info shown via the game rather than in text, I don't think anyone can deny the written word is a valuable medium capable of conveying content visuals cannot. Vice versa applies, of course, but a lot of the Codex text in Dragon Age is ucneccesary (albeit fun) fluff...it's there for no other reason than for people who are interested in reading the lore. Having some NPCs around who actually talk about such things would be cool, but some people like reading too. They do it in their free time for fun.

The later games in the Ultima series were littered with books. There was a library in U6, the Lycaeum, bursting with short texts, lore, jokes, fiction, parodies, and you didn't get XP for reading a single one (although one was a sidequest item IIRC). They were there because books were meant to be in the library and it gave people cool stuff read.

[Firky]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
 the Lycaeum,

That place nearly made me fail out of uni.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Firky wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
 the Lycaeum,

That place nearly made me fail out of uni.

On the other hand, you'll have all the answers to Lord British's copy protection pop quiz.

[RussianSpy27]

JohnEpler wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

Well, I've seen at least one poster say that he/she would want all the codex-entries removed, which, honestly, would suck, but I wouldn't probably care too much if the interface would be like that of DA2s, It is really weird how much such a relatively small thing can suck the joy out of something I enjoyed really much with better interface.

And btw, Erynnar, Tirfan, not Trifan, takes me back to my WoW-playing days when no one in the guild could apparently learn to say Tirfan and it was always Trifan... perhaps I should change the nick.

DAMMIT! Sorry Tirfan! I actually caught my mistake on a different post to you.    And I played WoW too.  

Okay back to topic. Remove all the codex entries? Seriously? Good lord, someone who doesn't like to read. Why don't they just go play something else that doesn't require it? I certainly hope BioWare doesn't go with that suggestion. I want more not less. Including bringing back the descriptions on items.

I think the argument is not 'remove all the codex entries', but rather 'present as much of the information contained within the codex entries as you can through gameplay'. Codex entries add a lot of flavour, and I remember patting myself on the back when I found bonus content in DA:O simply by looking at the codices (I only did QA for DA:O on the Sacred Ashes plot, so I hadn't seen much more than an overview of the rest of the game by the time I got to play it as a consumer, rather than a developer). But wherever possible, I think we'd like to be giving you as much of that information through gameplay and the world around you rather than simple text infodumps. Of course, that's not to say that getting rid of the codex is in something we want to do - however, the more we can show you rather than tell you through a couple of paragraphs of text, the more alive the world feels (in my opinion).

John, your opinion is duly noted. However, as a fan of DA:O for its literary strength (and a huge fan of David Gaider's novels), I have to say that in my hubmle opinion, codex is brilliant and should not be decreased in any way. As much as I love DG's novels on my kindle, seeing some of the story and DAO lore in written form within the game itself is very important for me. It makes me feel as if I, the role playing hero, am actually picking up that scroll or a book about a part of Fereldan's history and that is a unique experience. 

Moreover, out of all the criticism the development team has recieved from critics and users about DA2, do you really believe that improving DA expansions/sequels includes decreased codex? 

I'm respectfully appauled at how out of all criticism posts, this suggestion actually recieves notable attention and agreement. As if the development team is thinking "hmmm so we got a B for DA2 from the community & critics and A for DA:O...what can we do? OH LOOK this guy feels presenting story in written codex form is weak...bingo!!!!


~RS

[John Epler]

RussianSpy27 wrote...

John, your opinion is duly noted. However, as a fan of DA:O for its literary strength (and a huge fan of David Gaider's novels), I have to say that in my hubmle opinion, codex is brilliant and should not be decreased in any way. As much as I love DG's novels on my kindle, seeing some of the story and DAO lore in written form within the game itself is very important for me. It makes me feel as if I, the role playing hero, am actually picking up that scroll or a book about a part of Fereldan's history and that is a unique experience. 

Moreover, out of all the criticism the development team has recieved from critics and users about DA2, do you really believe that improving DA expansions/sequels includes decreased codex? 

I'm respectfully appauled at how out of all criticism posts, this suggestion actually recieves notable attention and agreement. As if the development team is thinking "hmmm so we got a B for DA2 from the community & critics and A for DA:O...what can we do? OH LOOK this guy feels presenting story in written codex form is weak...bingo!!!!


~RS

I think you're grossly misrepresenting what I said. I feel the Codex is best used when it's giving the player ancilliary information that they might not otherwise have access to - things like flavour, in-character essays, that sort of thing. However, sometimes, we lean on the Codex a little too hard to tell you things that would be stronger if they were shown through the world and through gameplay. I don't feel that's a particular controversial position to take - I'm not saying 'less reading is always better!', but, well, I feel that since this is an interactive medium, wherever possible, let's let you discover things through interactivity. A good example that's been brought up is the Enigma of Kirkwall - as it stands, it's entirely Codex-based. It might have been stronger if we'd shown signs of the Veil being thinner at Kirkwall, and little hints through gameplay and in-engine stuff that says 'hey, here's this important fact about Kirkwall' because, well, it -is- important information.

And contrary to what some think, I'm certainly not opposed to reading. My degree is in English, so a certain love of literature and reading is inherent in that However, I also believe that games have certain strengths and abilities that are unique to the medium that we should, wherever possible, capitalize on. Again, I'm not saying 'no more Codex! Let's take out every bit of reading from the game!', because that's simply not something I feel would be productive. Nor would that decision be in any way made by me, regardless of my personal feelings. What I -am- saying, however, is that we can work on the confluence of gameplay and narrative - the two should work together, rather than existing in almost separate boxes. And part of that is going to be bringing more of the narrative into the game world, whether through ambient events or any of the other tools in our toolbox.

EDIT: Corrected 'showed' to 'shown'. I will now hang my head in shame, as I have dishonoured my ancestors.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 07 juillet 2011 - 05:24 .

[erynnar]

JohnEpler wrote...

RussianSpy27 wrote...

John, your opinion is duly noted. However, as a fan of DA:O for its literary strength (and a huge fan of David Gaider's novels), I have to say that in my hubmle opinion, codex is brilliant and should not be decreased in any way. As much as I love DG's novels on my kindle, seeing some of the story and DAO lore in written form within the game itself is very important for me. It makes me feel as if I, the role playing hero, am actually picking up that scroll or a book about a part of Fereldan's history and that is a unique experience. 

Moreover, out of all the criticism the development team has recieved from critics and users about DA2, do you really believe that improving DA expansions/sequels includes decreased codex? 

I'm respectfully appauled at how out of all criticism posts, this suggestion actually recieves notable attention and agreement. As if the development team is thinking "hmmm so we got a B for DA2 from the community & critics and A for DA:O...what can we do? OH LOOK this guy feels presenting story in written codex form is weak...bingo!!!!


~RS

I think you're grossly misrepresenting what I said. I feel the Codex is best used when it's giving the player ancilliary information that they might not otherwise have access to - things like flavour, in-character essays, that sort of thing. However, sometimes, we lean on the Codex a little too hard to tell you things that would be stronger if they were showed through the world and through gameplay. I don't feel that's a particular controversial position to take - I'm not saying 'less reading is always better!', but, well, I feel that since this is an interactive medium, wherever possible, let's let you discover things through interactivity. A good example that's been brought up is the Enigma of Kirkwall - as it stands, it's entirely Codex-based. It might have been stronger if we'd shown signs of the Veil being thinner at Kirkwall, and little hints through gameplay and in-engine stuff that says 'hey, here's this important fact about Kirkwall' because, well, it -is- important information.

And contrary to what some think, I'm certainly not opposed to reading. My degree is in English, so a certain love of literature and reading is inherent in that However, I also believe that games have certain strengths and abilities that are unique to the medium that we should, wherever possible, capitalize on. Again, I'm not saying 'no more Codex! Let's take out every bit of reading from the game!', because that's simply not something I feel would be productive. Nor would that decision be in any way made by me, regardless of my personal feelings. What I -am- saying, however, is that we can work on the confluence of gameplay and narrative - the two should work together, rather than existing in almost separate boxes. And part of that is going to be bringing more of the narrative into the game world, whether through ambient events or any of the other tools in our toolbox.

Ah! Thanks for the clarification John! And I would have loved more little visuals on the enigma of Kirkwall. Even a cutaway on a map the trio made showing the city making up sigels or symbols mentioned. I see what you mean now.

[Tirfan]

^ Sounds good in theory, if I recall correctly, Planescape: Torment did quite well in the gameplay & narrative working together, which sadly, isn't something neither DA:O or DA2 did very well. (It really has been too long since I played that game.. perhaps I should buy it from GoG)

Weren't the enigma of Kirkwall the codices that could have explained a quite a bit why everything in Kirkwall seemed to be so crazy? I remember just that they were scattered in the most random places ever and I didn't find most of them.. which, in hindsight as I learned about them later seemed a really weird choice to make, important info that can explain quite a few things.. but we have hidden them! (Wwhhat?)

[erynnar]

Tirfan wrote...

^ Sounds good in theory, if I recall correctly, Planescape: Torment did quite well in the gameplay & narrative working together, which sadly, isn't something neither DA:O or DA2 did very well. (It really has been too long since I played that game.. perhaps I should buy it from GoG)

Weren't the enigma of Kirkwall the codices that could have explained a quite a bit why everything in Kirkwall seemed to be so crazy? I remember just that they were scattered in the most random places ever and I didn't find most of them.. which, in hindsight as I learned about them later seemed a really weird choice to make, important info that can explain quite a few things.. but we have hidden them! (Wwhhat?)

Yeah, I missed some of them my first playthrough, got them all the second.

[Redcoat]

Tirfan wrote...

^ Sounds good in theory, if I recall correctly, Planescape: Torment did quite well in the gameplay & narrative working together, which sadly, isn't something neither DA:O or DA2 did very well. (It really has been too long since I played that game.. perhaps I should buy it from GoG)

Weren't the enigma of Kirkwall the codices that could have explained a quite a bit why everything in Kirkwall seemed to be so crazy? I remember just that they were scattered in the most random places ever and I didn't find most of them.. which, in hindsight as I learned about them later seemed a really weird choice to make, important info that can explain quite a few things.. but we have hidden them! (Wwhhat?)

While I was playing through the game, I began to wonder if the central antagonist to the story was not a person, but the city of Kirkwall itself - a place that destroys the sanity, humanity, and morality of everyone who lives there. Maybe that's the what the writers intended, or maybe that's just my English degree talking.

[erynnar]

Redcoat wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

^ Sounds good in theory, if I recall correctly, Planescape: Torment did quite well in the gameplay & narrative working together, which sadly, isn't something neither DA:O or DA2 did very well. (It really has been too long since I played that game.. perhaps I should buy it from GoG)

Weren't the enigma of Kirkwall the codices that could have explained a quite a bit why everything in Kirkwall seemed to be so crazy? I remember just that they were scattered in the most random places ever and I didn't find most of them.. which, in hindsight as I learned about them later seemed a really weird choice to make, important info that can explain quite a few things.. but we have hidden them! (Wwhhat?)

While I was playing through the game, I began to wonder if the central antagonist to the story was not a person, but the city of Kirkwall itself - a place that destroys the sanity, humanity, and morality of everyone who lives there. Maybe that's the what the writers intended, or maybe that's just my English degree talking.

I wondered this too! Glad I'm not the only one.

[TEWR]

Tirfan wrote...

^ Sounds good in theory, if I recall correctly, Planescape: Torment did quite well in the gameplay & narrative working together, which sadly, isn't something neither DA:O or DA2 did very well. (It really has been too long since I played that game.. perhaps I should buy it from GoG)

Weren't the enigma of Kirkwall the codices that could have explained a quite a bit why everything in Kirkwall seemed to be so crazy? I remember just that they were scattered in the most random places ever and I didn't find most of them.. which, in hindsight as I learned about them later seemed a really weird choice to make, important info that can explain quite a few things.. but we have hidden them! (Wwhhat?)

Agreed. Both DA games didn't present information very well and instead relied on either telling us or relied on a 30 second cinematic.


The Enigma of Kirkwall is definitely one of those things that should've been shown. I thought I had gotten them all my first time through but I had missed 3. My second time I got them all and read them. My reaction was just "..... why wasn't this shown? Why was it hidden?"


But even then, I feel that the Enigma of Kirkwall was just a reason for why every mage we meet (aside from Merrill and Bethany) is a crazy wackjob. So it became less of an important piece of information and more of an excuse as to why the game was developed so much into trying to make a "grey issue" out of something that was purely black and white.

We never met any good mages from the Circle, and the one mage who actually seemed sensible and trustworthy among the mages that we did meet decided to betray me in a stupid manner because the Plot Dictates.

[erynnar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

^ Sounds good in theory, if I recall correctly, Planescape: Torment did quite well in the gameplay & narrative working together, which sadly, isn't something neither DA:O or DA2 did very well. (It really has been too long since I played that game.. perhaps I should buy it from GoG)

Weren't the enigma of Kirkwall the codices that could have explained a quite a bit why everything in Kirkwall seemed to be so crazy? I remember just that they were scattered in the most random places ever and I didn't find most of them.. which, in hindsight as I learned about them later seemed a really weird choice to make, important info that can explain quite a few things.. but we have hidden them! (Wwhhat?)

Agreed. Both DA games didn't present information very well and instead relied on either telling us or relied on a 30 second cinematic.


The Enigma of Kirkwall is definitely one of those things that should've been shown. I thought I had gotten them all my first time through but I had missed 3. My second time I got them all and read them. My reaction was just "..... why wasn't this shown? Why was it hidden?"


But even then, I feel that the Enigma of Kirkwall was just a reason for why every mage we meet (aside from Merrill and Bethany) is a crazy wackjob. So it became less of an important piece of information and more of an excuse as to why the game was developed so much into trying to make a "grey issue" out of something that was purely black and white.

We never met any good mages from the Circle, and the one mage who actually seemed sensible and trustworthy among the mages that we did meet decided to betray me in a stupid manner because the Plot Dictates.

The only problems are...if Bethany goes to a certain <spoiler> and Hawke is a mage and Merrill, who all live in Kirkwall for 10 years, shouldn't they go loop the loo too? I mean, one good mage chick from Ferelden tried to turn herself into the Circle and later becomes an abomination. Hawke and Bethany and Merrill should all go bonkers too.

[Captain_Obvious]

RussianSpy27 wrote...

John, your opinion is duly noted. However, as a fan of DA:O for its literary strength (and a huge fan of David Gaider's novels), I have to say that in my hubmle opinion, codex is brilliant and should not be decreased in any way.
~RS

Am I the only one who never reads codex entries? 

[TEWR]

erynnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

^ Sounds good in theory, if I recall correctly, Planescape: Torment did quite well in the gameplay & narrative working together, which sadly, isn't something neither DA:O or DA2 did very well. (It really has been too long since I played that game.. perhaps I should buy it from GoG)

Weren't the enigma of Kirkwall the codices that could have explained a quite a bit why everything in Kirkwall seemed to be so crazy? I remember just that they were scattered in the most random places ever and I didn't find most of them.. which, in hindsight as I learned about them later seemed a really weird choice to make, important info that can explain quite a few things.. but we have hidden them! (Wwhhat?)

Agreed. Both DA games didn't present information very well and instead relied on either telling us or relied on a 30 second cinematic.


The Enigma of Kirkwall is definitely one of those things that should've been shown. I thought I had gotten them all my first time through but I had missed 3. My second time I got them all and read them. My reaction was just "..... why wasn't this shown? Why was it hidden?"


But even then, I feel that the Enigma of Kirkwall was just a reason for why every mage we meet (aside from Merrill and Bethany) is a crazy wackjob. So it became less of an important piece of information and more of an excuse as to why the game was developed so much into trying to make a "grey issue" out of something that was purely black and white.

We never met any good mages from the Circle, and the one mage who actually seemed sensible and trustworthy among the mages that we did meet decided to betray me in a stupid manner because the Plot Dictates.

The only problems are...if Bethany goes to a certain <spoiler> and Hawke is a mage and Merrill, who all live in Kirkwall for 10 years, shouldn't they go loop the loo too? I mean, one good mage chick from Ferelden tried to turn herself into the Circle and later becomes an abomination. Hawke and Bethany and Merrill should all go bonkers too.

I guess it just goes to show that they have the willpower to resist such things (proving to me that Merrill is a smarter mage than people give her credit for. Much smarter than Marethari). Also, the Plot Dictates.

[erynnar]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

RussianSpy27 wrote...

John, your opinion is duly noted. However, as a fan of DA:O for its literary strength (and a huge fan of David Gaider's novels), I have to say that in my hubmle opinion, codex is brilliant and should not be decreased in any way.
~RS

Am I the only one who never reads codex entries? 

I doubt it, but I think you might be in a smaller group (just a guess of course).

[thedistortedchild]

I feel like a broken record... here goes.

I like DA2 in a sort of objective way. If I think of it not being a BioWare game, and unrelated to DA:O it is pretty good.

Compared to other BioWare and Dragon age games it feels less everything. Less dialogue. Less Item and context text. Less CHOICE. Those are not things I want less of from bioware.

Modifié par thedistortedchild, 07 juillet 2011 - 06:16 .