325 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
Who says it's about protecting the children?.

The person I responded to

First of all, children PLAY video games, even the worst of the mature rated ones these days.

Hence why I was responding to him.

And even so, exactly what would be the point of having child soldiers?

Emotional impact.

It could show how humanity in the 'glorious space-age' has been reduced to sending out children in guerilla bands to ward off the alien monsters.

It would actually show just how bleak the war is and tug on the heart-strings of the player.

Modifié par GodWood, 05 juillet 2011 - 12:50 .

[Ghost Warrior]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...



And even so, exactly what would be the point of having child soldiers?

Having more people capable of fighting and defending?
What if we get outnumbered by husks or whatever is attacking - more people get included in the fight,including children.

[EDIsMYHO]

Mordin: "game... has romances has horrific sights. Not suitable for premature offspring of any culture. No, has to be other explanation to OP's intent... hmm... is pedophile? game with romance, no other possible reason for wanting to risk lives of offspring. Yes. Pedo."

[Welsh Inferno]

They won't show children fighting. Although every man women and child in my imagination will be fighting the reapers.

[GodWood]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
And we can't leave that to the imagination?

We can't not?

[VegasVance]

GodWood wrote...

We can't not?

If your grammar improves, maybe.

[GodWood]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
We can't realize that it is obvious that kids fighting is probably going on? Do we need to see everything? No, we don't.

Your opinion.

Who really wants to see kids wielding guns and crap? Emotional impact? It's lame shock value, and shock value I would rather not see. I think the thing with the kid and the shuttle was enough.

The idea seems to be getting a reaction out of you now so I'm thinking it would in fact have an 'emotional impact' on you.

[naledgeborn]

 

[GodWood]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

GodWood wrote...
The idea seems to be getting a reaction out of you now so I'm thinking it would in fact have an 'emotional impact' on you.

The only impact it would have is me not liking it.

But what is the reasoning for you not liking it?
Is it because you don't like the idea of seeing children being forced into a situation where they have to be a soldier?
If so then it's successful with its intent.

[Son of Illusive Man]

Well, now that EA has control of the series, I doubt won't happen, because violence against kids = banned in some countries, and a possible AO rating effectively is a blacklist against the game in console sales.  Freedom of speech isn't a reality for Bioware.

Still, I would love if Bioware sacrificed some sales in order to make a more mature game.  I mean, I heard no complaints when Anakin killed off the Padawans in Star Wars Ep. 3, but if it happens in a game, the idiots at Fox News will have a heart attack.

But then again, as long as the player wasn't executing the action against the child, and it was tastefully done, it could be possible...

krzimmer wrote...
I don't want an issue like child violence to be used to satisfy my entertainment.  I find that revolting! Anyone who seriously says that they WANT to see this kind of thing in a video game has issues, and should take a deep introspective look at themselves.  

That's is my opinion anyway, take it or leave it.

So should we take out the prejudice in the game too?  The mass killing and warfare?  The piracy?  The alcohol and drug use?  

All of these terrible elements make the game more realistic.   Mass Effect is a great game because it reflects on these real life scenarios that exist even today.

krzimmer wrote...
OH! So if it's not REAL than it can't be wrong at all!  OKAY! Yeah that makes sense!  Now that we have established that, let's include rape, abuse, graphic torture and degenerative, dehumanizing kinds of things in video games.  After all, none of it is actually real, so WHO CARES!  You realize that that's essentially what you are saying right?.... See how for you get with that argument.

Yep, still ain't harmful.

Now, if it's just senseless violence, I probably won't want to play the game, but that's aside from the point...

Seriously, the fact that they are fictional charactors has no relevance to what I am saying.  Children should have no place in war in the real world, and, on that principle, shouldn't be depicted at war in video games.

They SHOULD NOT, but they do.

The same way piracy shouldn't exist, but it does.  The same way prejudice and racism shouldn't exist, but it does.  The same way drug abuse shouldn't exist, but it does.  The same way a sentient race of machines intent on killing all humans shouldn't exist, but it does.


To me, it seems like you'd rather just play Candyland than actually have a story.  That's fine, if you want it, but then Mass Effect isn't really for you.  Mass Effect is a story-driven game, and it is a mature one at that.  Mature stories contain elements of real life that may be mature.

As I said before,  video games are an entertainment experience at their core, and I don't want to see children on the battlefield getting killed for the sake of my entertainment.

That's why he said you're holding back the industry.

Books are an entertainment experience.  That doesn't mean that their use is limited to entertainment.  We have books about themes, political beliefs, human character, etc.

Now, in Mass Effect, I understand that the entire galaxy is at stake and no one is safe.  There will be lots of casualties and children will no doubt be among them.  I understand that.  Just don't literaly show kids getting killed, where we see it with our own eyes.  That's where the line should be drawn.

So you think a Reaper would just skip over a kid if they saw them?  HA!  [sarcasm]That REALLY makes sense[/sarcasm]

And dude, of course there is no outcry over shooting adults in video games.  Adults are supposed to be the ones fighting wars, that's the way it should be.  It's not reasonable to gripe about that.  Children getting shot - that's on a compeletely different level.

Star Wars Ep. 3 

SPOILERS! Anakin kills the Padawans 

No media outcry

Modifié par Son of Illusive Man, 05 juillet 2011 - 02:50 .

[Son of Illusive Man]

Saberchic wrote...

This isn't the middle age where you need a sturdy arm to be able to drive a piece of metal through someones liver to be able to kill them. You just need to pull the trigger on a weapon, and with husks of various kinds running amok on attacked worlds it would be natural for children to try and defend themselves too. Sure, depending on the circumstances you see them in their morale or qualifications may not be the best. But they can still squeeze a trigger from time to time, and the sum of those squeezed triggers might just be what saves the day in the end.

Some of those weapons are heavy duty; so no, I don't expect it to be a quick squeeze of the trigger. Besides the fact that children are probably not going to have any type of access to the types of weapons that can damage a reaper.

Cerberus soldiers? Husks?

They don't even necesarly have to be soldiers. Just people with a pistol fighting for their lives or an escape.

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

So you've never seen a depressing piece of art before?  Never read a depressing book, but still thought, "Wow, this really makes you think" or "Wow, this book was great!"

Just because it isn't all happy-go-lucky, does not mean it is not art.  

According to Wikipedia
Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect.


Did it say POSITIVELY affects the senses, emotions, and intellect?

NO.

This has nothing to do with entertainment.  No one suggested that the game let you kill children for fun, or even that the children necesarily die, just that children have a realistic place in the story, rather than pretending they don't exist or they have some magic shield that protects them from the Reapers.  That just makes no sense.

If you don't want a mature game, don't play Mass Effect.

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
US limits freedoms, too.

Limiting freedom is a good thing, because you will have people that take that freedom too far.

Limiting freedom should only be done to protect others' life, liberty, and property.

That's what the US constitution is based on.  (Although as the past few adminjistrations have shown us, if the govt. has an agenda, they will just ignore the Constitution.)


Since everyone has the OPTION to either buy the game or not, and parents can still choose whether to buy the game or not, this hurts no one.  Therefore, it's an unreasonable limitation on freedom.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Sylvianus - I am actually not against it, but video games are an instant gratification medium. In a book, you could explain the ramifications - the desperation - the degeneration of a society that allows children soldiers.

In a video game - people just want to get to the "pew pew". Much the same with many - not all - movies. But honestly - when was the last time "you" had Gandhi, or the Color Purple, or some other movie that doesn't center around violence on your "Top Ten Movies" list? ((They're mine - but I'm a snobby elitist - and in my country, at this stage of society - that's a bad thing.))

I don't think a video game is the medium to make this form of expression anything more than shock value commentary.

Umm....Titanic was the highest grossing movie before Avatar.  People die, but it's not centered around violence.  Even Avatar was a story which portrayed violence and aggression as evil and nature and peace as pure.

Also, Mass Effect is BASED on ramifications and consequences.

Modifié par Son of Illusive Man, 05 juillet 2011 - 02:26 .

[krzimmer]

GodWood wrote...

krzimmer wrote...
So I'm holding the gaming intustry back because I am standing on my moral convictions that child violence should not be involved in an interactive entertainment experience......  Okay.

That is correct.

"People like me" are not at all trying to "hold the gaming industry back," in fact I encourage and am excited about the advancement of the medium.  That being said, I do believe there are moral concerns to take into consideration regarding certain themes and whether they should be manifested in video games.  The video game medium is perfectly capable of blossoming while following simple moral guidlines as to what is acceptable and what isn't in an interactive entertainment experience.  I believe this stance is perfectly reasonable.

People like you are holding back the medium because you are limiting the amount of mature themes a game can have on the basis that "children play games".

Well I hope you realise children can read mature books or even 'worse' watch mature films?
Right now any child can simply be a few mouse clicks away from downloading movies such as A Serbian Film.

Does that mean you advocate the removal of any mature themes from all mediums so you can 'protect the children'?

Well I personally am of the opinion of: F*ck that.
It's the parents responsibility to dictate what their child can and cannot watch and what they can and cannot play.
Mature adults should be able to have access to mature forms of entertainment with mature, adult themes be they art, literacture, film or yes even videogames.

If you look at this realistically you would understand that there are differences between the video game medium compared with others, such as cinema and literature, pertaining to viewership, listenership, readership (and whaterver else) demographics.  While it is true that all mediums are available to all audiences, most are tailored to specific target audiences.  For the most part, this means that exposure of children to adult themes and content is limited through the way that the mediums market their products, whether it be movies, books, magazines, whatever (Although, sadly, the industry, and society for that matter, have become less effective at that overthe years).

Now for video games it is much different, because of the fact that EVERYONE LIKES TO PLAY THEM; key word, "everyone."  So, naturaly, video game developers like Bioware have to expect that their products are going to reach virtually every demographic group in a significant way, and they have to decide on the kind content and themes they want to put into their products based on that. 

That's why you can't expect video games to reach the same level that other mediums, like movie land, do when it comes to certain kinds of themes and content that are very mature in nature.  Of course I don't argue that other mediums should remove mature themes.  All I'm saying is that, when it comes to video games, it is a much more sensitive matter, for reasons stated above.

This is not my opinion, it's just the reality of the situation.  What you want is not going to happen; at least not to a significant degree, and probably not anytime soon.

[Son of Illusive Man]

krzimmer wrote...

If you look at this realistically you would understand that there are differences between the video game medium compared with others, such as cinema and literature, pertaining to viewership, listenership, readership (and whaterver else) demographics.  While it is true that all mediums are available to all audiences, most are tailored to specific target audiences.  For the most part, this means that exposure of children to adult themes and content is limited through the way that the mediums market their products, whether it be movies, books, magazines, whatever (Although, sadly, the industry, and society for that matter, have become less effective at that overthe years).

Actually all people read books.  All ages.  Different people read different TYPES of books.

Do you think that the same people who play Viva Pinata and Kinect Adventures love Halo, Grand Theft Auto and Mass Effect?  No.  The video game generation is growing up and wants more mature games.  Bioware is providing.  It is advertised as an adult game, and tailors to that demographic.

Now for video games it is much different, because of the fact that EVERYONE LIKES TO PLAY THEM; key word, "everyone."  So, naturaly, video game developers like Bioware have to expect that their products are going to reach virtually every demographic group in a significant way, and they have to decide on the kind content and themes they want to put into their products based on that.

EVERYONE likes to watch movies.  Now should I go see Black Swan or Finding Nemo with my children?

This is not my opinion, it's just the reality of the situation.  What you want is not going to happen; at least not to a significant degree, and probably not anytime soon.

Your opinion is not fact.

While I doubt it will happen, no one really knows until the game is released.  Until then, we can only discuss the merits.

krzimmer wrote...
It's the reality of the situation, yes people are going to die in video games, its the way things are.  And no, I didn't accept all the things you mentioned as "perfectly fine," I just said I accept them.  Dont put words in my mouth.  

And yes, if children are involved it is wrong and is something that I WONT accept!  My moral compass doesn't have anything to do with it.  It is simply wrong, and you are wrong. [/discussion]

Saying "/discussion" does not end the discussion, only proves that you cannot logically defend your position and are getting mad about it.  

krzimmer wrote...
Yeah, there are realistic elements to Mass Effect, as there is to many video games.  And yes you are correct that it is a medium of expression, but there are boundaries.  Video games are not the same as movies and books because the audience is much, much broader.  That's why the boundaries exist.  All those events that you listed happen in Mass Effect, true, but you don't get a first hand look at them, which is much more impactfull on the psyche, than to here mention of them.  There are line that should not be crossed and violence against children is one of them

The boundaries are there because Soccer Moms buy games for their kids, THAT ARE NOT MEANT FOR KIDS.

That is not Bioware's fault, and BW should NOT sink down to the lowest common denominator.

The INTENDED audience is adults.  If other people want to play the game, that's fine, but don't ask BW to change the game for that demographic when the series is already established.

Why does children become the arbitrary line that you decide is not allowed. You have to have some logical backing here before you just decide that "xyz" is allowed, but "n" isn't.

krzimmer wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

And yes, if children are involved it is wrong and is something that I WONT accept!  My moral compass doesn't have anything to do with it.  It is simply wrong, and you are wrong. [/discussion]

Seeing as how you are not giving any logical reasons as to why not, and that you're basing your entire argument on what you "feel" to be "wrong" then yes, this is entirely about your moral compass.

And you "feel" that it should be acceptable for children to be depicted as armed combatants, killing  and getting killed, in a medium that targets, among others..... children themselves.  Don't preach to me about my moral standing without taking a good look at yourself.  

And apparently you missed all of my "logical reasons"  that I spewed out earlier, of which there is abundantly more than yours.  So how about this. I'm done.  I'm not even going to try to reason with you any more. Good night.

For now.

Yet you're fine with piracy, cooperation with a terrorist cell (which has done experiments on humans, and would not hesitate to use children if necesary), racism and xenophobia, mass murder, unwarranted assault (punching reporter), etc. ?

Okay.  Don't lecture him on morality then.

VegasVance wrote...

How the fawk has this not been locked?
No. Period. End of Story. Certain things ended in the 90's. Kids getting killed in an environment controllable by the player is one of them. VHS was the other.

No one said by the player.  It could easily be in a cutscene.  In fact, it would probably make the most emotional impact in a cutscene.

Modifié par Son of Illusive Man, 05 juillet 2011 - 02:47 .

[naledgeborn]

I see it as a good opportunity for social commentary. Edward Zwick's Blood Diamond was about children killing children. No public outcry came from it. One could even say that the film was critically acclaimed. If video games can touch on other mature themes to increase sales why not go all the way and comment on some of the injustices going on right now? It might even reinforce Mass Effect's artistic integrity. 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 05 juillet 2011 - 02:45 .

[Xerxes52]

While it's probably a given that children would be among the forces fighting the Reapers, Bioware doesn't have to show it, if only to avoid the game getting banned in most countries.

It could be implied through dialogue, but it shouldn't be explicitly shown.

[AngelicMachinery]

GodWood wrote...\\

Well I hope you realise children can read mature books or even 'worse' watch mature films?
Right now any child can simply be a few mouse clicks away from downloading movies such as A Serbian Film.

Why would you do that!

[Ghost Warrior]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Well I hope you realise children can read mature books or even 'worse' watch mature films?
Right now any child can simply be a few mouse clicks away from downloading movies such as A Serbian Film.

Why would you do that!

That movie is truy disgusting,and coming from me,that means something. I regret ever watching it.

[Luvinn]

Well, i read through all 12 pages of this thread so far, and i have to say i am impressed that its mostly filled with civil discussion thus far.

However, I have yet to see a definitive reason why something like this shouldn't be in the game, but it is alright to show in other mediums, like film. The majority of reasons can seem to fit in two categories:

1) I don't want to see it (personal opinions)
2) Children would be playing these games (they shouldn't play M-rated games just as much as they shouldn't watch R and X rated movies)

As a gamer from the mid 80's I saw most of the games that pushed the boundaries of what was acceptable. Games like Mortal Kombat showed blood on a large scale, and was widely criticized for it. Now if a game doesn't feature blood when it realistically would be there, it seems out of place. I think people are still stuck in the "old school" mode of thinking that only young people play video games. Fact is, we are getting older and older, and will keep on playing video games. And in the same way that I watch movies that are rated R because I like a more mature, realistic subject matter, I want the same feeling when playing a video game.

And just to be clear, I personally don't care if they add this into the game or not. I won't feel ME3 is less of a game if they don't feature child soldiers. I just haven't seen one good reason why it shouldn't other than personal preference. It's just in the same way that people are against certain modern day political hot button topics that-can't-be-talked-about, but they never give a good reason why they are against it other than, "i don't like it". I personally think that isn't a good enough reason to not include something that many other people wouldn't mind in a game, movie, book, or whatever other form of entertainment.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I'm sure the Reapers will use children soldiers, they could make pretty effective Husks. I wonder if Bioware will get that dark with the game...probably not.