325 réponses à ce sujet

[krzimmer]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Well I hope you realise children can read mature books or even 'worse' watch mature films?
Right now any child can simply be a few mouse clicks away from downloading movies such as A Serbian Film.

Why would you do that!

That movie is truy disgusting,and coming from me,that means something. I regret ever watching it.

Yeah, and we all know that plenty of young kids watch/read that kind of stuff.... right? 

No.

[naledgeborn]

It comes down to this. If minors are being exposed to mature content that their parents themselves are consciously purchasing for them and then object to the exposition or to the content itself then the fault lies the parents' lack of common sense and responsibility. It's not Bio Ware's fault for saying "Hey this is what's going on. It's the truth and we're talking about it, like it or not."

Modifié par naledgeborn, 05 juillet 2011 - 04:08 .

[AngelicMachinery]

krzimmer wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Well I hope you realise children can read mature books or even 'worse' watch mature films?
Right now any child can simply be a few mouse clicks away from downloading movies such as A Serbian Film.

Why would you do that!

That movie is truy disgusting,and coming from me,that means something. I regret ever watching it.

Yeah, and we all know that plenty of young kids watch/read that kind of stuff.... right? 

No.

My cousins were raised on horror movies,  it's not much of a stretch really.  I think a kid would be more prone to watching Human Centipede myself.  "LOL HER LIPS ARE ON HIS HIS BUTT! LOLOLOLOL"  Though I think that's pretty much the responce of anyone who actually wants to sit down and watch that particular movie.  

The same can be said about video games though.  Why is a child playing a mature video game in the first place?  They shouldn't be playing in in the first place,  the violence is prolific,  there may be sex (CG sex is hilarious).  I don't think that kids should be playing games like this in the first place.  If I were somehow inclined to have a parasite inside me for nine months,  I would censor what they played just as my parents censored what I watched as a child.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 05 juillet 2011 - 04:09 .

[Son of Illusive Man]

krzimmer wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Well I hope you realise children can read mature books or even 'worse' watch mature films?
Right now any child can simply be a few mouse clicks away from downloading movies such as A Serbian Film.

Why would you do that!

That movie is truy disgusting,and coming from me,that means something. I regret ever watching it.

Yeah, and we all know that plenty of young kids watch/read that kind of stuff.... right? 

No.

So you're saying that because some parents allow their children to play games marketed, made for, and tailored to mature adults or older teens, Bioware needs to stoop down to the lowest common denomniator and disneyfy their games for them?  No, that's not how it works.

Anyways, "Experian pegs Xbox 360 owners at being within the average age range of 35-44"
http://www.joystiq.c...-ps3-consumers/

[krzimmer]

Son of Illusive Man wrote...

So should we take out the prejudice in the game too?  The mass killing and warfare?  The piracy?  The alcohol and drug use?  

Allof these terrible elements make the game more realistic.   Mass Effect is a great game because it reflects on these real life scenarios that exist even today.

My argument is not that we should "clean up" said terrible elements, because you're right, they do make games more realistic.  What I'm concerned about is taking realism too far, and in my mind showing children getting killed, regardless of the fact that it is not real, is going too far.  I also don't like seeing hardcore drug use in games, but that's the topic of another discussion, I'm trying to stay on child violence in this thread.

Sone of Illusive Man wrote...

krzimmer wrote...
OH! So if it's not REAL than it can't be wrong at all!  OKAY! Yeah that makes sense!  Now that we have established that, let's include rape, abuse, graphic torture and degenerative, dehumanizing kinds of things in video games.  After all, none of it is actually real, so WHO CARES!  You realize that that's essentially what you are saying right?.... See how for you get with that argument.

Yep, still ain't harmful.

Now, if it's just senseless violence, I probably won't want to play the game, but that's aside from the point...

The fact that all that stuff is not literaly harmful shouldn'd be the sole criterium for inclussion.

What goes too far, and what doesn't?

It is moral relativism, and it is used in all mediums and is relative to each medium.  Cinema uses it, literature uses it, and so does the video game industry, all to varying degrees and effects depending on the medium and the target audience.

Son of Illusive Man wrote...

krzimmer wrote...
Seriously, the fact that they are fictional charactors has no relevance to what I am saying.  Children should have no place in war in the real world, and, on that principle, shouldn't be depicted at war in video games.

They SHOULD NOT, but they do.

Thesame way piracy shouldn't exist, but it does.  The same way prejudice and racism shouldn't exist, but it does.  The same way drug abuse shouldn't exist, but it does.  The same way a sentient race of machines intent on killing all humans shouldn't exist, but it does.


To me, it seems like you'd rather just play Candyland than actually have a story.  That's fine, if you want it, but then Mass Effect isn't really for you.  Mass Effect is a story-driven game, and it is a mature one at that.  Mature stories contain elements of real life that may be mature.

To me, it seems like you have no idea who I am or where exactly my moral standings are based this absurd comment.  Candyland? Yeah that's exactly what I want.:innocent:

Of course these issues do exist, and I'm not saying we should bar all real-life issues from video games, I actually encourage that.  But again, I beleive there should be a boundaries to certain issues, just like there are in many other forms of media, particularly those that take on the form of fiction, as Mass Effect does.  And child violence I think should be on the outside of those boundaries.  That's what I'm trying to say here in this instance.

Son of Illusive Man wrote...

As I said before,  video games are an entertainment experience at their core, and I don't want to see children on the battlefield getting killed for the sake of my entertainment.

That's why he said you're holding back the industry.

Books are an entertainment experience.  That doesn't mean that their use is limited to entertainment.  We have books about themes, political beliefs, human character, etc.

...and video games can do the same thing, I'm not arguing against that at all.  But when it comes to Violence agaisnt children, the lines are drawn differently for different mediums.  For video games those lines are more restrictive and there is a reason for that.

Son of Illusive Man wrote...

Now, in Mass Effect, I understand that the entire galaxy is at stake and no one is safe.  There will be lots of
casualties and children will no doubt be among them.  I understand that.  Just don't literaly show kids getting killed, where we see it with our own eyes.  That's where the line should be drawn.

So you think a Reaper would just skip over a kid if they saw them?  HA!  [sarcasm]That REALLY makes sense[/sarcasm]

Wow, really?  Did you not even read what I wrote:

"There will be lots of casualties and CHILDREN WILL NO DOUBT BE AMONG THEM.  I understand that.  Just don't literaly show kids getting killed, where we see it with our own eyes."

[sarcasm] I applaud you observational skills. [/sarcasm]

Modifié par krzimmer, 05 juillet 2011 - 05:28 .

[Polka14]

My argument is not that we should "clean up" said terrible elements, because you're right, they do make games more realistic.  What I'm concerned about is taking realism too far, and in my mind showing children getting killed, regardless of the fact that it is not real, is going too far.  I also don't like seeing hardcore drug use in games, but that's the topic of another discussion, I'm trying to stay on child violence in this thread.

That is your opinion but why do people think showing children getting killed is "going too far" and not other elements of a mature story?? If a game if made for adults then there should be no reason to restrict what content is made for the game if the target audience is meant to view it. Showing children dying in combat is no worse then watching any typical war scene. Children shouldn't be playing mass effect so it is not important if they shouldn't be watching any fictional characters die in a combat scene.

[krzimmer]

Son of Illusive Man wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's
sick!

So you've never seen a depressing piece of art before?  Never read a depressing book, but still thought, "Wow,
this really makes you think" or "Wow, this book was great!"

Just because it isn't all happy-go-lucky, does not mean it is not art. 

According to Wikipedia
Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect.


Did it say POSITIVELY affects the senses, emotions, and intellect?

NO.

This has nothing to do with entertainment.  No one suggested that the game let you kill children for fun, or even that the children necesarily die, just that children have a realistic place in the story, rather than pretending they don't exist or they have some magic shield that protects them from the Reapers.  That just makes no sense.

If you don't want a mature game, don't play Mass Effect.

You are completely misunderstanding me.  Of course art and forms of expression, including video games, don't  have to be happy-go-lucky.  You are making it out to be like I'm someone who only wants to see rainbows and butterflies and happy things.  I'M NOT A HIPPY, MAN!  I'm a soldier, I've dealt with the grim realities of life before, alright.  And I do like to see comentaries on tragic things played out in media, including video games. 

I agree that children should have a realistic place in Mass Effect 3.  There are simply things that I don't want to see because I think it would be going too far.  Children dying is one of them.  It's not that they can't die at all in the big sceme of things, I just don't want to SEE it happen.

And I think it is fair to say that I speak for a lot of people who think the same way.

Modifié par krzimmer, 05 juillet 2011 - 06:00 .

[krzimmer]

Polka14 wrote...

My argument is not that we should "clean up" said terrible elements, because you're right, they do make games more realistic.  What I'm concerned about is taking realism too far, and in my mind showing children getting killed, regardless of the fact that it is not real, is going too far.  I also don't like seeing hardcore drug use in games, but that's the topic of another discussion, I'm trying to stay on child violence in this thread.

That is your opinion but why do people think showing children getting killed is "going too far" and not other elements of a mature story?? If a game if made for adults then there should be no reason to restrict what content is made for the game if the target audience is meant to view it. Showing children dying in combat is no worse then watching any typical war scene. Children shouldn't be playing mass effect so it is not important if they shouldn't be watching any fictional characters die in a combat scene.

Oh, Polka, it's you again.  I'm sorry, but I can't even take you seriously any more.

[Polka14]

krzimmer wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

My argument is not that we should "clean up" said terrible elements, because you're right, they do make games more realistic.  What I'm concerned about is taking realism too far, and in my mind showing children getting killed, regardless of the fact that it is not real, is going too far.  I also don't like seeing hardcore drug use in games, but that's the topic of another discussion, I'm trying to stay on child violence in this thread.

That is your opinion but why do people think showing children getting killed is "going too far" and not other elements of a mature story?? If a game if made for adults then there should be no reason to restrict what content is made for the game if the target audience is meant to view it. Showing children dying in combat is no worse then watching any typical war scene. Children shouldn't be playing mass effect so it is not important if they shouldn't be watching any fictional characters die in a combat scene.

Oh, Polka, it's you again.  I'm sorry, but I can't even take you seriously any more.

And I can't take you or your opinion seriously. the game already depicts people getting shot and blown up and crushed by a mech in battle but you can't depict a young human dying?? no reason and no arguments for it. only pathetic prejudice and a sense of arrogant narrow minded "morality" <_<

[krzimmer]

Polka14 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

My argument is not that we should "clean up" said terrible elements, because you're right, they do make games more realistic.  What I'm concerned about is taking realism too far, and in my mind showing children getting killed, regardless of the fact that it is not real, is going too far.  I also don't like seeing hardcore drug use in games, but that's the topic of another discussion, I'm trying to stay on child violence in this thread.

That is your opinion but why do people think showing children getting killed is "going too far" and not other elements of a mature story?? If a game if made for adults then there should be no reason to restrict what content is made for the game if the target audience is meant to view it. Showing children dying in combat is no worse then watching any typical war scene. Children shouldn't be playing mass effect so it is not important if they shouldn't be watching any fictional characters die in a combat scene.

Oh, Polka, it's you again.  I'm sorry, but I can't even take you seriously any more.

And I can't take you or your opinion seriously. the game already depicts people getting shot and blown up and crushed by a mech in battle but you can't depict a young human dying?? no reason and no arguments for it. only pathetic prejudice and a sense of arrogant narrow minded "morality" <_<

And you are completely "amoral," meaning, according to dictionary.com:

"having no moral standards, restraints, or principles; unaware of or indifferent to questions of right or wrong: a completely amoral person."

Thanks, but I'll keep my "arrogant narrow minded "morality"" over that Sh*t.

"a young human dying."  Way to make that sound politically correct.

Modifié par krzimmer, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:09 .

[SalsaDMA]

We read Lord of the Flies in elementary school as part of our education.

Just what is it that makes some people think that we need to overshelter and overprotect kids to the extent that we should outright lie or hide the truth about the world from them?

Ignoring history makes you bound to repeat it.

[Han Shot First]

Yes, though it doesn't necessarily need to be shown in game. Hearing about it in a news report would be sufficient.

[Polka14]

krzimmer wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

My argument is not that we should "clean up" said terrible elements, because you're right, they do make games more realistic.  What I'm concerned about is taking realism too far, and in my mind showing children getting killed, regardless of the fact that it is not real, is going too far.  I also don't like seeing hardcore drug use in games, but that's the topic of another discussion, I'm trying to stay on child violence in this thread.

That is your opinion but why do people think showing children getting killed is "going too far" and not other elements of a mature story?? If a game if made for adults then there should be no reason to restrict what content is made for the game if the target audience is meant to view it. Showing children dying in combat is no worse then watching any typical war scene. Children shouldn't be playing mass effect so it is not important if they shouldn't be watching any fictional characters die in a combat scene.

Oh, Polka, it's you again.  I'm sorry, but I can't even take you seriously any more.

And I can't take you or your opinion seriously. the game already depicts people getting shot and blown up and crushed by a mech in battle but you can't depict a young human dying?? no reason and no arguments for it. only pathetic prejudice and a sense of arrogant narrow minded "morality" <_<

And you are completely "amoral," meaning, according to dictionary.com:

"having no moral standards, restraints, or principles; unaware of or indifferent to questions of right or wrong: a completely amoral person."

Thanks, but I'll keep my "arrogant narrow minded "morality"" over that Sh*t.

"young human being dying."  Way to make that sound politically correct.

there really is nothing "moral" about pretending that young humans are invulnerable to violence and danger in a world set in a future reality. Children are part of the mass effect universe so not including them undermines the actual story itself. you simply don't want to see them get killed for some reason. i don't understand how that might be a problem but watching adult humans get killed is not a problem? sounds like something to do with ageism???

[Inquisitor Recon]

Renegade Shepard will gladly accept young human shie... I mean volunteers.

[Han Shot First]

Bioware can't show children being killed.

It would limit sales in some countries, and at the end of the day Bioware is a business. But there are other ways to portray it without showing it directly. Having Shepard meet grieving parents for example, or hearing a news story or two works just as well.

[Praetor Knight]

Well here's an example from History: Los Niños Héroes



A news blurb would be more than enough in ME3, if it would serve the storytelling.

[Dexi]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Well I hope you realise children can read mature books or even 'worse' watch mature films?
Right now any child can simply be a few mouse clicks away from downloading movies such as A Serbian Film.

Why would you do that!

Ok I was quite intrigued... but then I watched it... Now my whole body shakes. 

I've seen women raped by horses, I've seen decapitations, as a challenge I saw most of that horrible internet vids ( 2 girls 1 cup, 2 guy 1 stump, 1 guy 1 jar, 2 girls 1 octopus), and my stomach took them all, as they didn't come one after another, but my stomach barely took this movie, I feel like I need to go to church, and I know it will take some time before I want to see a naked/semi-naked person again. 



My advice for the others: DO NOT WATCH THIS PIECE OF CRAP.

Also, because I'm in the state I'm in, I can't say yes to children violence... I can't even say yes to making out with the Yvonne Strahovski right now...

Modifié par Dexi, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:27 .

[mauro2222]

krzimmer wrote...

Polka14 wrote...
Inappropriate in games but perfectly ok in movies like in "enemy at the gates"???

why keep that atrocious double standard alive people? who cares if it isn't appropriate to some? there is nothing wrong with this media form portraying the same level of graphic violence towards children as  movies. no?

There can't be a double standard when it comes to moral issues such as this in movies and video games because the standards are different for both mediums, and that's the way it should be. 

Concerning movies, violence against children exists, yes, but even so, usually  it is only used when the context of the story and setting permit it.  "Enemy At the Gates" is a movie centered around historical events during WWII and is meant to make us aware of stuff that actually happened in our history.  A lot of the stuff you see in that movie actually happened.  Child soldiers, that actually happended back then (and is still a major problem in the world today, just watch "Blood Diamand").  You don't see much violence against children in fictional movies, and if you do, they often have very real-world-like settings so that we understand that crap like this happens in the real world all the time.   

When it comes to video games, its a totaly different story.  First of all, children PLAY video games, even the worst of the mature rated ones these days.  I'd like to think that parents try to keep their children away from mature rated games, but we all know that, for the most part, this isn't really true.  I think most of us have been cussed out on Call of Duty of Halo online by some twelve year old at some point in time, I know I have.  Video games are interactive media and it makes it that much more personal for the player.  Sure, video games such as Mass Effect have tragic things happen in them.  It's a fictional story in a fictional universe in the future.  It's supposed to be fun and dramatic even involve tragic and even slightly disturbing elements, but there are moral boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, Violence against children being one of them.

Children are precious and innocent, and depictions of violence against them in any medium is somthing that is supposed to be REVOLTING in nature.  Something that people are shocked to see, and it should be, because it is morally wrong. It is something that shouldn't happen in our world. but does.  It is an ugly real world issue that needs to be dealt with; so don't bring it into video games, the purpose of which is our ENTERTAINMENT: that's the key word, because that's what video games are all about in the end, pure entertainment.  I don't want an issue like child violence to be used to satisfy my entertainment.  I find that revolting! Anyone who seriously says that they WANT to see this kind of thing in a video game has issues, and should take a deep introspective look at themselves. 

That's is my opinion anyway, take it or leave it.

I take it. True very true

[mauro2222]

There is something called discresion. The world is lame, the children live in happyness in their world until the external enviroment invades, then they change and then they become "us", releasing them into this world at a very early age is worse, they tend to accept this monstrosities and even they justify those actions. We don´t need to contribute to the suffering by exposing children to this disgusting society when they are not prepared not even for see what is wrong and not even to give them the will to change the problem.

[krzimmer]

Polka14 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

My argument is not that we should "clean up" said terrible elements, because you're right, they do make games more realistic.  What I'm concerned about is taking realism too far, and in my mind showing children getting killed, regardless of the fact that it is not real, is going too far.  I also don't like seeing hardcore drug use in games, but that's the topic of another discussion, I'm trying to stay on child violence in this thread.

That is your opinion but why do people think showing children getting killed is "going too far" and not other elements of a mature story?? If a game if made for adults then there should be no reason to restrict what content is made for the game if the target audience is meant to view it. Showing children dying in combat is no worse then watching any typical war scene. Children shouldn't be playing mass effect so it is not important if they shouldn't be watching any fictional characters die in a combat scene.

Oh, Polka, it's you again.  I'm sorry, but I can't even take you seriously any more.

And I can't take you or your opinion seriously. the game already depicts people getting shot and blown up and crushed by a mech in battle but you can't depict a young human dying?? no reason and no arguments for it. only pathetic prejudice and a sense of arrogant narrow minded "morality" <_<

And you are completely "amoral," meaning, according to dictionary.com:

"having no moral standards, restraints, or principles; unaware of or indifferent to questions of right or wrong: a completely amoral person."

Thanks, but I'll keep my "arrogant narrow minded "morality"" over that Sh*t.

"a young human dying."  Way to make that sound politically correct.

there really is nothing "moral" about pretending that young humans are invulnerable to violence and danger in a world set in a future reality. Children are part of the mass effect universe so not including them undermines the actual story itself. you simply don't want to see them get killed for some reason. i don't understand how that might be a problem but watching adult humans get killed is not a problem? sounds like something to do with ageism???

*sigh*

Just keep talking bro... keep talking. 
I want to see how big of a hole you can dig.

Modifié par krzimmer, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:06 .

[SalsaDMA]

mauro2222 wrote...

There is something called discresion. The world is lame, the children live in happyness in their world until the external enviroment invades, then they change and then they become "us", releasing them into this world at a very early age is worse, they tend to accept this monstrosities and even they justify those actions. We don´t need to contribute to the suffering by exposing children to this disgusting society when they are not prepared not even for see what is wrong and not even to give them the will to change the problem.

You realize we are talking about pixels and makebelieve children, right?

They aren't real...

[mauro2222]

SalsaDMA wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

There is something called discresion. The world is lame, the children live in happyness in their world until the external enviroment invades, then they change and then they become "us", releasing them into this world at a very early age is worse, they tend to accept this monstrosities and even they justify those actions. We don´t need to contribute to the suffering by exposing children to this disgusting society when they are not prepared not even for see what is wrong and not even to give them the will to change the problem.

You realize we are talking about pixels and makebelieve children, right?

They aren't real...

I was speaking about the children that buy the game.
For a child real and imaginary are blurry lines, their philosophie is not strong enough to distinguish.

Modifié par mauro2222, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:32 .

[armass]

Why the hell are these forums full of these kinds of suggestions lately? First it's the massacre in the citadel thread and now this...

[Robbiesan]

No.

[Varus Praetor]

First off, long drawn out wars are generally between two sides that are either evenly matched, or have asymmetric strengths that make a quick resolution difficult (think terrorists vs. USA conventional military). The Reapers outclass the entire galaxy combined and they aren't trying to "win hearts and minds," they're essentially eating people. Any war with the Reapers that doesn't result in either their defeat or the destruction of all major resistance in a matter of months is unrealistic (I know, it's a video game so anything is possible).

Every culture that has ever faced imminent destruction has armed all available people capable of fighting while still trying to preserve their culture as best they can. Look to Germany at the end of WWII when they sent the very young and most women west while the boys and old men stayed behind to try and delay the Russians. If there is no tomorrow, what are you protecting the children from? In a annihilation scenario, all capable of fighting must fight, end of story. To pretend otherwise does nothing other than show how divorced many of us are from reality these days.

Having said all of this, obviously BW can't put this into a video game. As realistic as it would be, there are limits to how much realism is tolerated as "entertainment." As someone else pointed out, there are European nations that would out right ban the game for the inclusion of child soldiers.