325 réponses à ce sujet

[DadeLeviathan]

I think this would be a very interesting idea in the realm of showing that everyone is fighting for their lives. However, that doesn't mean it would be done well. Usually when films and games do this it either comes off as exploitation or a farce. And I'm a firm believer that if you can't do something right, you shouldn't do it at all.

[Saberchic]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

No, no, no!

This will inevitably lead to ... "so now that children are in the game, Shep should have one!"

No children soldiers.
No adopting kids.
No femShep that is preggers for half the game.

Seriously, no kid is going to be able to fight a flippin' reaper.  This is a seriously horrible idea.

edit: spelling

A kid in the future can use a low recoil weapon just as well as a kids can today. Or are you claiming that school shootouts, gang shootouts, children soldiers aren't possible today?

I never claimed anything of the sort. No need to be so overly dramatic. <_<

This isn't the middle age where you need a sturdy arm to be able to drive a piece of metal through someones liver to be able to kill them. You just need to pull the trigger on a weapon, and with husks of various kinds running amok on attacked worlds it would be natural for children to try and defend themselves too. Sure, depending on the circumstances you see them in their morale or qualifications may not be the best. But they can still squeeze a trigger from time to time, and the sum of those squeezed triggers might just be what saves the day in the end.

Some of those weapons are heavy duty; so no, I don't expect it to be a quick squeeze of the trigger. Besides the fact that children are probably not going to have any type of access to the types of weapons that can damage a reaper.

The reaper attacks come on suddenly. I don't think the military is going to panic after a week and start sending children out with weapons. Get real.

The alternative of complete annihilation certainly doesn't sound enticing enough for people to go: "oh... We better not give children any weapons, in case some arcaelogists in the distant future find evidence that we used children soldiers before we got wiped out and disaproves of it."

This last part is so stupid. Really?

[Zkyire]

krzimmer wrote...

OH! So if it's not REAL than it can't be wrong at all!  OKAY! Yeah that makes sense!  Now that we have established that, let's include rape, abuse, graphic torture and degenerative, dehumanizing kinds of things in video games.  After all, none of it is actually real, so WHO CARES!  You realize that that's essentially what you are saying right?.... See how for you get with that argument.

Rape? Already insinuated during the Purgatory mission in ME2 when talking to one of the prisoners.

Abuse? Shepard repeatedly punching a civilian for asking questions he/she doesn't like.

Torture? Jack was tortured.

Dehumanising things? People are liquified in front of you in the Collector base. In LotSB you see a Salarian being pushed into a pit and ripped to pieces by a couple of Varren. David in Project Overlod was interfaced with the Geth against his will and put under extreme emotional stress where he was SCREAMING for help.

[krzimmer]

SalsaDMA wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

No offense intended but IMO people like you are holding the games industry back.
No offense taken, but I strongly disagree.

So I'm holding the gaming intustry back because I am standing on my moral convictions that child violence should not be involved in an interactive entertainment experience......  Okay.

"People like me" are not at all trying to "hold the gaming industry back," in fact I encourage and am excited about the advancement of the medium.  That being said, I do believe there are moral concerns to take into consideration regarding certain themes and whether they should be manifested in video games.  The video game medium is perfectly capable of blossoming while following simple moral guidlines as to what is acceptable and what isn't in an interactive entertainment experience.  I believe this stance is perfectly reasonable.

One other thing. How can you draw such a conclusion about me based off of a SINGLE post I made about one of my moral convictions: "People like you are holding the gaming industry back."  What? Dude, All I was doing was stating what I beliefs. Geeze man, be carefull about lumping people into groups like that when you don't even know them.

I don't mean any offense either, this is just something I feel strongly about.

Cheers.

Well yes. What moral concerns?

The children aren't real.

The guns they're holding aren't real.

The bullets they're shooting aren't real.

The people being hit by said bullets aren't real.

No child is in any way, shape, or form being harmed.

They're all virtual characters doing virtual things. In the same way shooting adults in virtual games doesn't harm anyone because said adults aren't real. No outcry over that.

So tell me, where's the "moral" concern?

OH! So if it's not REAL than it can't be wrong at all!  OKAY! Yeah that makes sense!  Now that we have established that, let's include rape, abuse, graphic torture and degenerative, dehumanizing kinds of things in video games.  After all, none of it is actually real, so WHO CARES!  You realize that that's essentially what you are saying right?.... See how for you get with that argument.

Seriously, the fact that they are fictional charactors has no relevance to what I am saying.  Children should have no place in war in the real world, and, on that principle, shouldn't be depicted at war in video games.  As I said before,  video games are an entertainment experience at their core, and I don't want to see children on the battlefield getting killed for the sake of my entertainment.

Now, in Mass Effect, I understand that the entire galaxy is at stake and no one is safe.  There will be lots of casualties and children will no doubt be among them.  I understand that.  Just don't literaly show kids getting killed, where we see it with our own eyes.  That's where the line should be drawn. 

And dude, of course there is no outcry over shooting adults in video games.  Adults are supposed to be the ones fighting wars, that's the way it should be.  It's not reasonable to gripe about that.  Children getting shot - that's on a compeletely different level.

I find it odd you are having such a discussion about a media that has already established violence and murder as enough of an everyday thing to happen that nobody even shrugs about it...

I mean, I take it you don't condone shooting other people, or stab them with long pieces of metal. Yet you have no qualms about such things in games. Your logic seems more than a little bit off to me when you have qualms about depicting some things but hav eno issues with depicting and even engaging in other equally objectionally events (such as stabbing/shooting/kicking/burning/whatever other people to death).

You are missing my point.  Of course violence is an accepted part of media, and that is not neccesarily a bad thing.  But I am talking exclusively about video games, and more specifically about violence against CHILDREN in video games.  Yes, I do accept that many video games involve violence and depict many violent acts, but where do you draw the line?  Wherever it is drawn, children should be on the side that you don't cross over to.  That's was my original point that you missed. 

Oh, and btw, I don't want anyone to think that I some radical peace advocate, because I'm not.  I'm a soldier in the US Army.  Part of my job is to shoot people , though I haven't done that yet.   ... Just to put some context on where I am coming from. 

[SalsaDMA]

Krzimmer, you missed my edit

What's your take on the Vorcha? Did you object to them in ME2?

[SalsaDMA]

Saberchic wrote...

Some of those weapons are heavy duty; so no, I don't expect it to be a quick squeeze of the trigger. Besides the fact that children are probably not going to have any type of access to the types of weapons that can damage a reaper.

Soldiers aren't going to shoot reapers, so why are you arguing that children can't when it's not even an issue?

Infantry based attacks will consists of husks of various types, and possibly Cerberus troops too.

Nobody is talking about children with heavy weapons, or LMGs. But submachine guns should certainly be in the range of what you could possibly expect to see a kid fire with moderate success.

And given that Earthbased Shepard is rumored to grow up in gangs, and therefore implies that gangs with kids are present in the future too, what makes you so certain that kids can't get access to 'gang-weapons' then when they can now?

[xentar]

Next thing we know, there are requests for children sex slaves on Omega.

[Nerevar-as]

I don´t think BW will go that way, even if it makes sense to a point, as the cost of losing against the Reapers is genocide. Think of Carl in The Walking Dead, he needs to be able to defend himself. Husks don´t care the age of whoever they are trying to kill.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:27 .

[Saberchic]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Some of those weapons are heavy duty; so no, I don't expect it to be a quick squeeze of the trigger. Besides the fact that children are probably not going to have any type of access to the types of weapons that can damage a reaper.

Soldiers aren't going to shoot reapers, so why are you arguing that children can't when it's not even an issue?

Infantry based attacks will consists of husks of various types, and possibly Cerberus troops too.

Nobody is talking about children with heavy weapons, or LMGs. But submachine guns should certainly be in the range of what you could possibly expect to see a kid fire with moderate success.

And given that Earthbased Shepard is rumored to grow up in gangs, and therefore implies that gangs with kids are present in the future too, what makes you so certain that kids can't get access to 'gang-weapons' then when they can now?

You're the one who brought up shooting.

I don't think that kids are that stupid in the future to think a tiny SMG is going to hurt a reaper. Sorry, I'd like to think that they have more smarts than that.

You seem to think any child can randomly go out and get a gun at will, like they're just outside at a kiosk on the corner of Main St.

Sorry, your vision of a having a child army in Mass Effect just doesn't jive with my vision. I think it more likely that, if anything, children are going to be sequestered and protected as much as possible to help ensure the survival of humankind.

[Saberchic]

xentar wrote...

Next thing we know, there are requests for children sex slaves on Omega.

This made me laugh. Yes, I can hear the arguements now.

"But it happens in real life!"

[AngelicMachinery]

krzimmer wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

No offense intended but IMO people like you are holding the games industry back.
No offense taken, but I strongly disagree.

So I'm holding the gaming intustry back because I am standing on my moral convictions that child violence should not be involved in an interactive entertainment experience......  Okay.

"People like me" are not at all trying to "hold the gaming industry back," in fact I encourage and am excited about the advancement of the medium.  That being said, I do believe there are moral concerns to take into consideration regarding certain themes and whether they should be manifested in video games.  The video game medium is perfectly capable of blossoming while following simple moral guidlines as to what is acceptable and what isn't in an interactive entertainment experience.  I believe this stance is perfectly reasonable.

One other thing. How can you draw such a conclusion about me based off of a SINGLE post I made about one of my moral convictions: "People like you are holding the gaming industry back."  What? Dude, All I was doing was stating what I beliefs. Geeze man, be carefull about lumping people into groups like that when you don't even know them.

I don't mean any offense either, this is just something I feel strongly about.

Cheers.

Well yes. What moral concerns?

The children aren't real.

The guns they're holding aren't real.

The bullets they're shooting aren't real.

The people being hit by said bullets aren't real.

No child is in any way, shape, or form being harmed.

They're all virtual characters doing virtual things. In the same way shooting adults in virtual games doesn't harm anyone because said adults aren't real. No outcry over that.

So tell me, where's the "moral" concern?

OH! So if it's not REAL than it can't be wrong at all!  OKAY! Yeah that makes sense!  Now that we have established that, let's include rape, abuse, graphic torture and degenerative, dehumanizing kinds of things in video games.  After all, none of it is actually real, so WHO CARES!  You realize that that's essentially what you are saying right?.... See how for you get with that argument.

Seriously, the fact that they are fictional charactors has no relevance to what I am saying.  Children should have no place in war in the real world, and, on that principle, shouldn't be depicted at war in video games.  As I said before,  video games are an entertainment experience at their core, and I don't want to see children on the battlefield getting killed for the sake of my entertainment.

Now, in Mass Effect, I understand that the entire galaxy is at stake and no one is safe.  There will be lots of casualties and children will no doubt be among them.  I understand that.  Just don't literaly show kids getting killed, where we see it with our own eyes.  That's where the line should be drawn. 

And dude, of course there is no outcry over shooting adults in video games.  Adults are supposed to be the ones fighting wars, that's the way it should be.  It's not reasonable to gripe about that.  Children getting shot - that's on a compeletely different level.

And this is why video games will NEVER be art.    The developers will never have full disclosure to do as they please,  everything will constantly be controlled by what people "think" is right in an interactive medium.

[AngelicMachinery]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...
And this is why video games will NEVER be art.    The developers will never have full disclosure to do as they please,  everything will constantly be controlled by what people "think" is right in an interactive medium.

Okay, so video games should be able to show rape, beastility, and all that sick sh*t?

I think that it as a medium should be capable of expressing itself in the same way film can. Do I want a game that shows rape and bestiality?  No,  I find the idea repugunant,  but,  I do think it's growth is being limited by the "PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" defence.  

[Selene Moonsong]

In a word, NO!

[Sylvianus]

Why not. We're at war. And survival of an entire universe is at stake. We fight or we die, so..

Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:46 .

[krzimmer]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Krzimmer, you missed my edit

What's your take on the Vorcha? Did you object to them in ME2?

Oh, the Vorcha.  Yeah **** those guys!  lol.

Really though, in my mind you can't really compare them to humans.  There just ... well... different. Yeah. the way they develope, ther physiology and all that stuff. 'nough said i think.

Modifié par krzimmer, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:48 .

[SalsaDMA]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...
And this is why video games will NEVER be art.    The developers will never have full disclosure to do as they please,  everything will constantly be controlled by what people "think" is right in an interactive medium.

Okay, so video games should be able to show rape, beastility, and all that sick sh*t?

And racism?

Should be able to? Yes.
Needs to? Not necesarily. It depends on the setting and to what extent it is used.

And some of the stuff you mentioned up there is already being used in games, so I fail to see your point in mentioning rape and racism in that quote.

Ignoring and trying to hide something is a greater evil than 'daring' to show its existence.

[KenKenpachi]

Most likely Won't be in the game, in reality however I would fully expect it. Everyone that could hold a gun and fight would be made too. The alternative is to be whiped out, and I doubt anyships will be making it off Earth with "Non-combatants." Not that the Reapers would care either way, be it harvesting an infant, or a fully grown soldier. I suspect the reality on Earth when the Reapers attack will be much like that of the USSR in WW2. Surrender is not an option and the attackers don't give a damn about the rules of War.

AS to them making ****** poor soldiers, against reapers, sure, Husks? Heh apperantly from the Codex not all of Earth has changed all that much and its likely they still may be in use, and Child Soldiers operate quite....effectively in South East Asia, Africa, and the Mid East. Where they learn to use AK-47's RPD's, RPG's, and even light artillery, so the recoil light weapons of the alliance should be no problem, also before the last 20 years, people lying about there age, or standards were alot lower than today, with Soldiers enlisting at 15 to 17 years of age, versus the medium age of 21 or so today.

So its not unthinkable, or unlikely, and if asked, I'm sure even in our dear old child protective world if an enemy was coming over the ramparts with escape not being an option, who turned there captives into mindless Zombies, and would spare not one single living soul, I'm sure they would not think twice about giving the kid or woman a gun.

Chivelry and the Laws of War have a place, when an enemy won't fallow them, then its a feel good handy cap. As a military Maxim quotes "Always Take the Moral High Ground. Its a great place to spot for Artillery.". The rules and ethics won't help with the reapers anymore, than it helped the Soviets With the ****'s or years later the Afghan People against the Soviets.

And as to them being helpless, yes this is the look of helplessness, and not, kill half of us in an instant should we ****** them off.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:52 .

[AngelicMachinery]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...
And this is why video games will NEVER be art.    The developers will never have full disclosure to do as they please,  everything will constantly be controlled by what people "think" is right in an interactive medium.

Okay, so video games should be able to show rape, beastility, and all that sick sh*t?

I think that it as a medium should be capable of expressing itself in the same way film can. Do I want a game that shows rape and bestiality?  No,  I find the idea repugunant,  but,  I do think it's growth is being limited by the "PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" defence.  

Limitations are a good thing.

Not if you want video games to be seen as anything but a children's past time it's not.

[slimgrin]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Ignoring and trying to hide something is a greater evil than 'daring' to show its existence.

Quoted for truth.

Let's not rule out subject matter just because we happen to find it offensive. All themes are fair game in my book. Just look at what anime does with this topic for instance; it pops up time and again, and in some examples is very well done.

Modifié par slimgrin, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:52 .

[SalsaDMA]

krzimmer wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Krzimmer, you missed my edit

What's your take on the Vorcha? Did you object to them in ME2?

Oh, the Vorcha.  Yeah **** those guys!  lol.

Really though, in my mind you can't really compare them to humans.  There just ... well... different. Yeah. the way they develope, ther physiology and all that stuff. 'nough said i think.

I might call you a 'speciest' now with my tongue in cheek

I just found it interesting that Bioware have basicly already made a precedent regarding children and violence with the Vorcha, yet nobody raised a word in outrage. I guess people find it harder to be empathic towards beings they only experience on the other side of a gunpoint and in purely negative encounters.

[Torhagen]

i think they wont do this since its not political correct.
Some would be evacuated other certainly would stand up and fight.