325 réponses à ce sujet

[krzimmer]

dreman9999 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

Wait a second...who said anything abouthaving that for our entertaiment? If people want that, they can mode a Fallout game or play on of the older rpgs.....This is about reality. In exteme cases of war like this, thing like child soldiers happen. And what more extreme than a total alian invasion?

WRONG!  Ultimately, video games are about, yes, ENTERTAINMENT.  That's what they ther are all about at their CORE.  Because that is how the industry makes money.  So if children in combat is implemented it will be for the sake of, you got it, ENTERTAINMENT!  Don't even try to say it's about realism.

[dreman9999]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

This is becoming a discussion about politics and not Mass Effect.

Inevitable, because it is a political discussion. Happens with every topic on this site that pushes bounderies. It'll get locked.

But here's the thing: other devs in the industry really are pushing bounderies while Bioware stays safely in PG-13 territory.

Eh bioware can stay PG-13 if they want to,  I could care less.  I think they should have the option to push comfort zones if they so desire too.  Not everything needs to be made for adults and not all good things are.  I don't need controversial content to be in a game,  but,  I don't think the potential for controversial content should be limited.

They push comfort zones with Jacks story line and no one complained.

[krzimmer]

Polka14 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

But no children are getting killed.

That's the point.

None of it is real.

Didn't I explain this to you earlier?  It's not the fact that none of it is real, its the principles behind it.  It's the depiction that counts.  It is something that happens in the real world and it is disgusting.  Don't bring it into video games, even if video games aren't real.  it is still wrong.

Seriously, of all the things you guys want to see in ME3....  Children getting killed?!  WTF!! What is wrong with you!?

what's the big deal about children getting killed? there is nothing wrong with depicting it in any form of media regardless if it is games or film or books.

Dude, just take a minute and think about what you're saying.  I shouldn't have to be explaining this. 

And I'm only talking about video games, fyi.

[Luvinn]

krzimmer wrote...

WRONG!  Ultimately, video games are about, yes, ENTERTAINMENT.  That's what they ther are all about at their CORE.  Because that is how the industry makes money.  So if children in combat is implemented it will be for the sake of, you got it, ENTERTAINMENT!  Don't even try to say it's about realism.

Movies are for entertainment too, and they feature this aspect in their stories. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I'm not seeing what makes it ok for movies and not ok for video games in your arguement.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

If you've seen Planet Terror you'll know giving a child a gun is both stupid and hilarious.

Can't we just pretend children don't exist like we did in ME1 and ME2?

[AngelicMachinery]

dreman9999 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

This is becoming a discussion about politics and not Mass Effect.

Inevitable, because it is a political discussion. Happens with every topic on this site that pushes bounderies. It'll get locked.

But here's the thing: other devs in the industry really are pushing bounderies while Bioware stays safely in PG-13 territory.

Eh bioware can stay PG-13 if they want to,  I could care less.  I think they should have the option to push comfort zones if they so desire too.  Not everything needs to be made for adults and not all good things are.  I don't need controversial content to be in a game,  but,  I don't think the potential for controversial content should be limited.

They push comfort zones with Jacks story line and no one complained.

True, but for the most part it was simply implied.  You only saw the remnant's of the camp and heard about it from a source that wasn't your PC.  I think people can handle/ignore such things until it becomes a visible manifestion on their screen.  

Also,  a lot of people don't seem to like Jack...  which may help.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:58 .

[Saberchic]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

C9316 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

This is becoming a discussion about politics and not Mass Effect.

Inevitable because it is a political discussion. Happens with every topic on this site that pushes bounderies. It'll get locked.

But here's the thing: other devs in the industry really are pushing bounderies while Bioware stays safely in PG-13 territory.

This. Really Bioware, please grow a damn spine and make the games you want to make and not the games that bad mothers want to baby-sit their children with.

You know for sure that's what they want to do? Do you work for Bioware?

This so made me laugh. You rock!

[C9316]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

C9316 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

This is becoming a discussion about politics and not Mass Effect.

Inevitable because it is a political discussion. Happens with every topic on this site that pushes bounderies. It'll get locked.

But here's the thing: other devs in the industry really are pushing bounderies while Bioware stays safely in PG-13 territory.

This. Really Bioware, please grow a damn spine and make the games you want to make and not the games that bad mothers want to baby-sit their children with.

You know for sure that's what they want to do? Do you work for Bioware?

Am I sure that they want to continue being judged by the content they put in their games by idiots who don't even bother to understand what they are trying to do? I don't work for bioware, but I'm pretty sure they would like to express their visions without thinking "Will parents fuss about this feature??" or "Will fox news make a big deal over this??"

Modifié par C9316, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:57 .

[AngelicMachinery]

krzimmer wrote...

Dude, just take a minute and think about what you're saying.  I shouldn't have to be explaining this. 

And I'm only talking about video games, fyi.

Don't take Polka seriously,  he wants to be able to kill civies in ME3.

[Ghost Warrior]

dreman9999 wrote...

Books can be for instant gradification as well, and many movies go to the extreme with this as well. In time of extrem war, everyone is a casualty no matter age. The game is not asking you to kill them, it just show how bad the war is.
Are we really saying that tranformers:dark moon can have can have child death, but a more mature title like ME3 can't?

This.
Of course I think killing in general is wrong,and especially when it comes to children,but it happens. We see it in many movies I think it should be in ME3. I am more against movies and games that show war as something almost fun,when you see those stupid-ass movies without blood and only bad guys get killed,some kids think: "cool". But if they see how much war is really awful and disgusting,all of those civilian casualties and violence...

[TheKillerAngel]

The next thing you know, legislators will be trying to crack down on game companies for their "evil violence against children."

[dreman9999]

krzimmer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

Wait a second...who said anything abouthaving that for our entertaiment? If people want that, they can mode a Fallout game or play on of the older rpgs.....This is about reality. In exteme cases of war like this, thing like child soldiers happen. And what more extreme than a total alian invasion?

WRONG!  Ultimately, video games are about, yes, ENTERTAINMENT.  That's what they ther are all about at their CORE.  Because that is how the industry makes money.  So if children in combat is implemented it will be for the sake of, you got it, ENTERTAINMENT!  Don't even try to say it's about realism.

Everything is about entertainment. But the thing is ME already crossed that line of realism in extreme conditions.
Let go over the details.
1. Seran and all turian became solders from 15 years old.
2.Seran was a spectre from the age of 18.
3. Jack entire life is a horror story about child endangerment, rape, experimantation, and abuse.
4. Colonies of people die in ME2, and they were not all adults.

The question of entertainment is not the issue because all forms of media is entertainment, instant or other wise.
It's a medium of expresion, and ME has use realise to it exterms many time. Harm on children is one of them. The thing is we do not want the extreme to happen to children but with a war like this happening in ME3, logically, we know children will not be spaired.

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:02 .

[TheKillerAngel]

I don't know, but how many of you are seriously aware of the ethical quagmire surrounding child soldiers? Do you guys read the news or what?

[Zkyire]

It's all about what we're exposed to.

We've been desensitised to violence and death to adults because we're bombarded by it in practically every media-entertainment source. The news, books, movies, tv shows, games.

Violence against children however is rarely shown, and so we're still squeemish about it.

Much the same way as rape. The movie "The Last House on the Left" got plenty of outcry for it's depiction of the rape of a teenage girl. And yet there was ZERO outcry for the many, many brutal murders throughout the movie. Why? Because we're not exposed to rape in media. But we are exposed to violence. So we're disgusted by one, and accept the other.

[Polka14]

krzimmer wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

But no children are getting killed.

That's the point.

None of it is real.

Didn't I explain this to you earlier?  It's not the fact that none of it is real, its the principles behind it.  It's the depiction that counts.  It is something that happens in the real world and it is disgusting.  Don't bring it into video games, even if video games aren't real.  it is still wrong.

Seriously, of all the things you guys want to see in ME3....  Children getting killed?!  WTF!! What is wrong with you!?

what's the big deal about children getting killed? there is nothing wrong with depicting it in any form of media regardless if it is games or film or books.

Dude, just take a minute and think about what you're saying.  I shouldn't have to be explaining this. 

And I'm only talking about video games, fyi.

if video games should be treated equally to other media then it can depict children getting killed too. i think it could only improve the game atmosphere. there is nothing wrong with it in my opinion.

[CheeseEnchilada]

This is still going on?

Guys, children have immortality in video games or they just don't exist. The fact that they killed off the kid in the vent in the demo is already a big leap from what my expectations were, and I think that's going to be where they stay. Killing off non-combatants in an indirect way like an explosion is one thing. Showing actual children fighting in war is another.

Games are not equal to movies. Comfort zones are radically different, and while games should push limits, they should be careful about it. How would child soldiers enhance the game? It shows desperation, but we're fighting giant metal space cthulus with no discernible weak point. There's going to be a lot of deaths, and a lot of desperate attempts. Putting children as combatants isn't enough of a powerful moment to outweigh the consequences.

And you have to remember this isn't the kind of good controversy, either. If they put actual sex scenes between Shepard and their LI in the game and the media commented, people would go for it. Sex is appealing, and something we believe the media overblows. If the media reported on child soldiers...that's something that people take far more seriously. It could be seen as a political statement, and while it may draw some people to the game, it will distance others. The pros do not outweigh the cons.

Modifié par CheeseEnchilada, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:02 .

[SalsaDMA]

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

That's quite a stretch. As far as I am aware nobody is expecting bioware to round up a bunch of kids and shoot them down while filming it to use the footage as entertainement.

What people are talking about, however, is the usage of art and artistic tools to capture this horrible part of desperate wars.

Do you think the next picture shouldn't have been made either or think the picture is 'sick', since you find the subject 'distatefull'?

[dreman9999]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

This is becoming a discussion about politics and not Mass Effect.

Inevitable, because it is a political discussion. Happens with every topic on this site that pushes bounderies. It'll get locked.

But here's the thing: other devs in the industry really are pushing bounderies while Bioware stays safely in PG-13 territory.

Eh bioware can stay PG-13 if they want to,  I could care less.  I think they should have the option to push comfort zones if they so desire too.  Not everything needs to be made for adults and not all good things are.  I don't need controversial content to be in a game,  but,  I don't think the potential for controversial content should be limited.

They push comfort zones with Jacks story line and no one complained.

I think that's because nobody had to see it.

So do you they have to show child soldiers. They can just say they are there.

[Niulus Kriyk]

krzimmer wrote...
  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression? 

Who is saying that the childern must die? There could be a few 14-17 years old children soldiers where they can be shown falling back (or just normal childern just runing away), dissapear and never have to be shown again. But there doesn't HAVE to a death scene! 

That is what I support.

[Zkyire]

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

This is still going on?

Guys, children have immortality in video games or they just don't exist. The fact that they killed off the kid in the vent in the demo is already a big leap from what my expectations were, and I think that's going to be where they stay. Killing off non-combatants in an indirect way like an explosion is one thing. Showing actual children fighting in war is another.

Games are not equal to movies. Comfort zones are radically different, and while games should push limits, they should be careful about it. How would child soldiers enhance the game? It shows desperation, but we're fighting giant metal space cthulus with no discernible weak point. There's going to be a lot of deaths, and a lot of desperate attempts. Putting children as combatants isn't enough of a powerful moment to outweigh the consequences.

And you have to remember this isn't the kind of good controversy, either. If they put actual sex scenes between Shepard and their LI in the game and the media commented, people would go for it. Sex is appealing, and something we believe the media overblows. If the media reported on child soldiers...that's something that people take far more seriously. It could be seen as a political statement, and while it may draw some people to the game, it will distance others. The pros do not outweigh the cons.

Personally I'm against the idea of child soldiers in real life 100%.

But this is a game where the Reapers aren't trying to conquer the galactic races, but to exterminate them.

When an army of Husks attacks a city, what should the children do should the soldiers fail?

Huddle in their homes, defenseless and wait for their inevitable deaths?

Or do you give them weapons and hope that IF they are attacked, that they'll at least be able to defend themselves?

[krzimmer]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

But no children are getting killed.

That's the point.

None of it is real.

Didn't I explain this to you earlier?  It's not the fact that none of it is real, its the principles behind it.  It's the depiction that counts.  It is something that happens in the real world and it is disgusting.  Don't bring it into video games, even if video games aren't real.  it is still wrong.

Seriously, of all the things you guys want to see in ME3....  Children getting killed?!  WTF!! What is wrong with you!?

And I already responded to that post earlier.

Killing in general is disgusting, so where is your "moral outcry" over that?

Why is it fine to burn people to death?

Why is it fine to throw people out of windows?

Are those acts not disgusting? Yet they're in the game.

You accept that as perfectly fine. But if children are involved THEN you gain a moral compass?

It's the reality of the situation, yes people are going to die in video games, its the way things are.  And no, I didn't accept all the things you mentioned as "perfectly fine," I just said I accept them.  Dont put words in my mouth. 

And yes, if children are involved it is wrong and is something that I WONT accept!  My moral compass doesn't have anything to do with it.  It is simply wrong, and you are wrong. [/discussion]

[byzantine horse]

As much as I would enjoy seeing a dark universe go totally black, this is politically incorrect to such a degree that the backlash would probably be grave. I mean, if Medal of Honor was more or less forced to change their game because you could play as a Taliban, what would happen to a game with children as soldiers?

[slimgrin]

EA showed the spine of a jelly fish with that Medal of Honor debacle. And this coupled with all the 'Dead Space offends your mom' ads. Seriously. All of it clearly shows they are aiming for kids, not adults.

Modifié par slimgrin, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .