325 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

I'm probably in the wrong thread... I could care less about child soldiers. I just despise all the limits that are tossed upon what could be an extremely interesting medium.

[Zkyire]

krzimmer wrote...

And yes, if children are involved it is wrong and is something that I WONT accept!  My moral compass doesn't have anything to do with it.  It is simply wrong, and you are wrong. [/discussion]

Seeing as how you are not giving any logical reasons as to why not, and that you're basing your entire argument on what you "feel" to be "wrong" then yes, this is entirely about your moral compass.

[Sylvianus]

SalsaDMA wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

That's quite a stretch. As far as I am aware nobody is expecting bioware to round up a bunch of kids and shoot them down while filming it to use the footage as entertainement.

What people are talking about, however, is the usage of art and artistic tools to capture this horrible part of desperate wars.

Do you think the next picture shouldn't have been made either or think the picture is 'sick', since you find the subject 'distatefull'?

I do not see the relevance of taking offense of child soldiers in the game when we are allowed to approve and cooperate with terrorists. To kill children, to commit genocide ( children, women and men ), to be racist, etc. etc..

Were you offended in Dragon Age ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:12 .

[C9316]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

C9316 wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

C9316 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

This is becoming a discussion about politics and not Mass Effect.

Inevitable because it is a political discussion. Happens with every topic on this site that pushes bounderies. It'll get locked.

But here's the thing: other devs in the industry really are pushing bounderies while Bioware stays safely in PG-13 territory.

This. Really Bioware, please grow a damn spine and make the games you want to make and not the games that bad mothers want to baby-sit their children with.

You know for sure that's what they want to do? Do you work for Bioware?

Am I sure that they want to continue being judged by the content they put in their games by idiots who don't even bother to understand what they are trying to do? I don't work for bioware, but I'm pretty sure they would like to express their visions without thinking "Will parents fuss about this feature??" or "Will fox news make a big deal over this??"

What makes you think that they even think that way? It's quite possible that they don't even worry about that. If they did care, Dragon Age wouldn't have some of the content that it has.

I think Mass Effect 2's watered down romance scenes would like to speak to you.

[slimgrin]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I'm probably in the wrong thread... I could care less about child soldiers. I just despise all the limits that are tossed upon what could be an extremely interesting medium.

Because this medium is just for childern, don't you know? 35 yr old children according to polls...

BUT THEY'RE STILL CHILDREN!!

[dreman9999]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

I don't know, but how many of you are seriously aware of the ethical quagmire surrounding child soldiers? Do you guys read the news or what?

And would understand the realitic consept of child soldier is extreme war.....We all no it's unethical. But we understand that in exteme cases of war, with no options , it happens. With case with to over sea amarican wars, it's not needed so they go to extreme to not have it happen. But if the war is in your backyard, it makes no difference what age you are, bullets kill everyone. And in the case of extreme war,childen take up arms to defend themselves or die. The guys with the gun has the power in war, and no one is going to stop them if  they want to kill off a town, unless the town can fight back. And if the town had nothing but children there, would you rather have them kill off or fight back?

[krzimmer]

dreman9999 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

Wait a second...who said anything abouthaving that for our entertaiment? If people want that, they can mode a Fallout game or play on of the older rpgs.....This is about reality. In exteme cases of war like this, thing like child soldiers happen. And what more extreme than a total alian invasion?

WRONG!  Ultimately, video games are about, yes, ENTERTAINMENT.  That's what they ther are all about at their CORE.  Because that is how the industry makes money.  So if children in combat is implemented it will be for the sake of, you got it, ENTERTAINMENT!  Don't even try to say it's about realism.

Everything is about entertainment. But the thing is ME already crossed that line of realism in extreme conditions.
Let go over the details.
1. Seran and all turian became solders from 15 years old.
2.Seran was a spectre from the age of 18.
3. Jack entire life is a horror story about child endangerment, rape, experimantation, and abuse.
4. Colonies of people die in ME2, and they were not all adults.

The question of entertainment is not the issue because all forms of media is entertainment, instant or other wise.
It's a medium of expresion, and ME has use realise to it exterms many time. Harm on children is one of them. The thing is we do not want the extreme to happen to children but with a war like this happening in ME3, logically, we know children will not be spaired.

Yeah, there are realistic elements to Mass Effect, as there is to many video games.  And yes you are correct that it is a medium of expression, but there are boundaries.  Video games are not the same as movies and books because the audience is much, much broader.  That's why the boundaries exist.  All those events that you listed happen in Mass Effect, true, but you don't get a first hand look at them, which is much more impactfull on the psyche, than to here mention of them.  There are line that should not be crossed and violence against children is one of them

[AngelicMachinery]

slimgrin wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I'm probably in the wrong thread... I could care less about child soldiers. I just despise all the limits that are tossed upon what could be an extremely interesting medium.

Because this medium is just for childern, don't you know? 35 yr old children according to polls...

BUT THEY'RE STILL CHILDREN!!

indeed...

[Miroslav_s46]

The real problem is that it could affect sales, there are just too many groups against it that it would probably be banned from a lot of places, that is what really is holding the game industry down, those game board pricks who don´t like blood and just give that reason (or some other political crap).

And we all know EA won't let their new profitable franchise to be banned

[Vnnk]

*children of the revolution stuck in his head* DAMN IT! and no we must fight off along as we can so that means the children must survive to breed and fight another day.

Modifié par Vnnk, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:33 .

[rapscallioness]

Well, as a card carrying member of "concerned mother's brigade", or the "b*tchy mom's" club, I gotta tell ya I'm about tired of being disrespected on here. "B*tchy" moms are the reason you're here at all; "b*tchy" moms are the most lethal and dangerous creatures in any species if they think their cubs are being threatened; "b*tchy" moms will gladly give thier lives for you if it means you'll be okay.

Ease up on the moms.

As far as the OP, and seeing kids in the game.....what age exactly are we talking about? 16-17, I don't consider them to be kids anymore. 9-10? No, I don't want to see a 9 year old get shot up in front of my eyes on my video game.

Sure Bioware's free to make it, and I'm free not buy it. I'd hate that because I love ME.

Is it realsitic? Yeah, sure. This crap is happening as we speak, but I don't want to see it. I don't want to see it on CNN.

So to what extent are we talking? Little kids scurrying around helping the resistance? Maybe getting in and out of places that adults can't fit in to? I could see that, I just don't want to see them get killed. You can imply something, allude to it without having to explicitly show it.

Oftentimes, it's the things that are left to the imagination that are much more emotionally powerful.

[krzimmer]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

And yes, if children are involved it is wrong and is something that I WONT accept!  My moral compass doesn't have anything to do with it.  It is simply wrong, and you are wrong. [/discussion]

Seeing as how you are not giving any logical reasons as to why not, and that you're basing your entire argument on what you "feel" to be "wrong" then yes, this is entirely about your moral compass.

And you "feel" that it should be acceptable for children to be depicted as armed combatants, killing  and getting killed, in a medium that targets, among others..... children themselves.  Don't preach to me about my moral standing without taking a good look at yourself. 

And apparently you missed all of my "logical reasons"  that I spewed out earlier, of which there is abundantly more than yours.  So how about this. I'm done.  I'm not even going to try to reason with you any more. Good night.

For now.

[C9316]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

C9316 wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

What makes you think that they even think that way? It's quite possible that they don't even worry about that. If they did care, Dragon Age wouldn't have some of the content that it has.

I think Mass Effect 2's watered down romance scenes would like to speak to you.

I thought they were fine.

And besides, Mass Effect does not need to be The Witcher 2.

I actually agree, ME does not need Witcher 2 like romance scenes, I was happy with the ME1 scenes but then this happened. This is why I think bioware needs to just not care what they think and just go on with their ideas.

[Saberchic]

Lord. Now people are going to want: "Child Soldier for squadmate!"

The game is about Shepard. The focus should be on Shepard.
We apparently get to experience an emotional scene with a child in it, and now people are demanding more.

I don't know why this surprises me.

[slimgrin]

Bioware isn't the least swayed by Fox news. I'm sure of that.

[Zkyire]

krzimmer wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

And yes, if children are involved it is wrong and is something that I WONT accept!  My moral compass doesn't have anything to do with it.  It is simply wrong, and you are wrong. [/discussion]

Seeing as how you are not giving any logical reasons as to why not, and that you're basing your entire argument on what you "feel" to be "wrong" then yes, this is entirely about your moral compass.

And you "feel" that it should be acceptable for children to be depicted as armed combatants, killing  and getting killed, in a medium that targets, among others..... children themselves.  Don't preach to me about my moral standing without taking a good look at yourself. 

And apparently you missed all of my "logical reasons"  that I spewed out earlier, of which there is abundantly more than yours.  So how about this. I'm done.  I'm not even going to try to reason with you any more. Good night.

For now.

I'm not "feeling" anything.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of people who "feel" it wrong yet accept all the other horrible things that happen.

And I just went back over all of your posts, every one of them are about your sense of morality.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:53 .

[REgentleman]

I could see it happening from a fringe group's perspective, say the batarian hegemony or human colonies not connected to the alliance or mercenary groups or something (maybe a kid runs away and lies about age because they feel a powerful obligation to fight- reminds me of a civil war book I can't quite name). Seeing it happen with the mainstream council races, though.. I'm guessing they would be much more likely to slap that kind of thing down as hard as they could.

@child soldiers not being effective: IIRC child soldiers were used by **** Germany as its last strongholds were getting overrun, and they were some of the most ferocious fighters they had. They're certainly not widely used in parts of Africa because they're ineffective.

edit: Nahtzee is censored? uh
lol


To me, video games are a wonderful medium in part because they can go anywhere, do anything. I don't particularly enjoy the Terminator 2 scene where kids get horrifically burned alive more than the next guy, but I will b*tch to the death about the right to show it, in films or in games.

Modifié par REgentleman, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:55 .

[Sylvianus]

Saberchic wrote...

Lord. Now people are going to want: "Child Soldier for squadmate!" .

That's not true. Most people who are here, speak out against this law of morality that must doesn't affect the creativity and freedom of creators. If they want, they do so, if it serves a goal of describing a war of survival.

Personally I don't care, but when I see topics like that, it makes me want to support that.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:56 .

[Saberchic]

Sylvianus wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Lord. Now people are going to want: "Child Soldier for squadmate!" .

That's not true. Most people who are here, speak out against this law of morality that must doesn't affect the creativity and freedom of creators. If they want, they do so, if it serves a goal of describing a war of survival.

Personally I don't care, but when I see topics like that, it makes me want to support that.

I was being sarcastic in that line. Perhaps I should have used a different face. I just take issue that people insist that it needs to be in there for dramatic reasons.

I stand by my earlier stance in that people should already be invested in the story. Players are already getting an interaction with a kid, and now they are saying they want to see even more.

I think what Bioware's trying to do is personalize this for Shep. Seeing random children soldiers (however unlikely it would be in the setting the story is taking place in) isn't the same as getting that one-on-one experience that we are apparently getting with the duct kid.

Besides, I don't think BW is shying away from "creativity." Have people forgotten about Connor is DA:O?

[dreman9999]

krzimmer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krzimmer wrote...

When did this become about artistic vision and freedom of expression?  We're talking about children getting killed for our entertainment, and that's supposed to be a part of of art and expression?  I'm sorry but that's sick!

Wait a second...who said anything abouthaving that for our entertaiment? If people want that, they can mode a Fallout game or play on of the older rpgs.....This is about reality. In exteme cases of war like this, thing like child soldiers happen. And what more extreme than a total alian invasion?

WRONG!  Ultimately, video games are about, yes, ENTERTAINMENT.  That's what they ther are all about at their CORE.  Because that is how the industry makes money.  So if children in combat is implemented it will be for the sake of, you got it, ENTERTAINMENT!  Don't even try to say it's about realism.

Everything is about entertainment. But the thing is ME already crossed that line of realism in extreme conditions.
Let go over the details.
1. Seran and all turian became solders from 15 years old.
2.Seran was a spectre from the age of 18.
3. Jack entire life is a horror story about child endangerment, rape, experimantation, and abuse.
4. Colonies of people die in ME2, and they were not all adults.

The question of entertainment is not the issue because all forms of media is entertainment, instant or other wise.
It's a medium of expresion, and ME has use realise to it exterms many time. Harm on children is one of them. The thing is we do not want the extreme to happen to children but with a war like this happening in ME3, logically, we know children will not be spaired.

Yeah, there are realistic elements to Mass Effect, as there is to many video games.  And yes you are correct that it is a medium of expression, but there are boundaries.  Video games are not the same as movies and books because the audience is much, much broader.  That's why the boundaries exist.  All those events that you listed happen in Mass Effect, true, but you don't get a first hand look at them, which is much more impactfull on the psyche, than to here mention of them.  There are line that should not be crossed and violence against children is one of them

And that the problem with your consept. Videogames can get away with because the audience is broader...like books. No one complain if a book goes to extreme because of how broad the audience is. Anyone can see a movie and movies go to far more extremes with than video games. Heck, FO3 had child slaves and soldiers as well. The only true limit is that childen can never be killed by the player. Now we not asking for child squad mates or to be allow to kill children but to realisticly inturperat childen in war time environments. We would see children in war like you would see them in movies.
And the fact that a child died in ME3 already brings the game to that extremes.

[dreman9999]

rapscallioness wrote...

Well, as a card carrying member of "concerned mother's brigade", or the "b*tchy mom's" club, I gotta tell ya I'm about tired of being disrespected on here. "B*tchy" moms are the reason you're here at all; "b*tchy" moms are the most lethal and dangerous creatures in any species if they think their cubs are being threatened; "b*tchy" moms will gladly give thier lives for you if it means you'll be okay.

Ease up on the moms.

As far as the OP, and seeing kids in the game.....what age exactly are we talking about? 16-17, I don't consider them to be kids anymore. 9-10? No, I don't want to see a 9 year old get shot up in front of my eyes on my video game.

Sure Bioware's free to make it, and I'm free not buy it. I'd hate that because I love ME.

Is it realsitic? Yeah, sure. This crap is happening as we speak, but I don't want to see it. I don't want to see it on CNN.

So to what extent are we talking? Little kids scurrying around helping the resistance? Maybe getting in and out of places that adults can't fit in to? I could see that, I just don't want to see them get killed. You can imply something, allude to it without having to explicitly show it.

Oftentimes, it's the things that are left to the imagination that are much more emotionally powerful.

I can easily agree with this.

[VolusvsReaper]

Polka14 wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

So it's the end of the world as we know it, and that usually in ancient times entailed every able bodied man and young lad would be hauled out given a weapon and told to kill things. It's happened numerous times throughout history do you think any reaper ravaged worlds will deploy this tactic using young children and teens who're capable enough to understand who is the enemy and which way the hurting end of their weapon of choice is to be placed out against the onslaught? Should BW even employ this tactic to showcase the desperate straits civilizations should be in? We wanted kids they got one in should there be more in varied roles?

Sure. would I be able to shoot them in the citadel?? if not i would still approve. it would improve the atmosphere. children are always in war movies. they should be in games with war scenes too in my opinion.

Ahh this guy, the same person who thinks ME3 should be like GTA....

[Sylvianus]

Saberchic wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Lord. Now people are going to want: "Child Soldier for squadmate!" .

That's not true. Most people who are here, speak out against this law of morality that must doesn't affect the creativity and freedom of creators. If they want, they do so, if it serves a goal of describing a war of survival.

Personally I don't care, but when I see topics like that, it makes me want to support that.

I was being sarcastic in that line. Perhaps I should have used a different face. I just take issue that people insist that it needs to be in there for dramatic reasons.

I stand by my earlier stance in that people should already be invested in the story. Players are already getting an interaction with a kid, and now they are saying they want to see even more.

I think what Bioware's trying to do is personalize this for Shep. Seeing random children soldiers (however unlikely it would be in the setting the story is taking place in) isn't the same as getting that one-on-one experience that we are apparently getting with the duct kid.

Besides, I don't think BW is shying away from "creativity." Have people forgotten about Connor is DA:O?

I agree with you and your statement. Personally I just think overall that Bioware would make a regrettable error if it didn't make this war of survival credible. Since the first episode they tell us that the Reapers are invincible and ruthless.

This requires to prove in the facts. A war isn't supposed to be moral, a war of survival isn't supposed to take place without loss and without sacrifices, a war against its own destruction isn't supposed to save anyone. Add a dimension isn't a bad thing if they do it. Political reasons and other out of the game just ruin everything. A game must be done without these considerations. That's why I prefer the first episode in many games. The creators don't care about such things at first.

  To see children killed or soldiers, would just add an emotional depth view very interesting. It's nothing, really.

[VegasVance]

How the fawk has this not been locked?
No. Period. End of Story. Certain things ended in the 90's. Kids getting killed in an environment controllable by the player is one of them. VHS was the other.