110 réponses à ce sujet

[Sharyhn]

I'm going to have to go with Anders, my Hawke was in a romance with him and when the Chantry went up i just felt wow.
If i'm honest i really didn't give a crap about the Chantry blowing up, i personally would have helped him myself. :innocent:

It's probably more to do with my beliefs than how I played my Hawke, but it felt like a slap in the face that he had been with my Hawke  for so long and felt he couldn't trust him enough to say anything. So it felt like betrayel kind of. 

But as i say that's just my opinion, im a great believer in trust and honesty in any relationship. ^ ^

Modifié par Sharyhn, 05 juillet 2011 - 11:09 .

[berelinde]

Sharyhn wrote...

I'm going to have to go with Anders, my Hawke was in a romance with him and when the Chantry went up i just felt wow.
If i'm honest i really didn't give a crap about the Chantry blowing up, i personally would have helped him myself. :innocent:

It's probably more to do with my beliefs than how I played my Hawke, but it felt like a slap in the face that he had been with my Hawke  for so long and felt he couldn't trust him enough to say anything. So it felt like betrayel kind of. 

But as i say that's just my opinion, im a great believer in trust and honesty in any relationship. ^ ^

I considered that as the opposite of betrayal. He loved Hawke enough to risk destroying their relationship in order to protect him/her. The Chantry was going to go up. He needed to be sure that Hawke would not be blamed. Yes, he knew that Hawke would probably never forgive him for his deceit, but he did not expect to survive. Better Hawke should hate him than see Hawke punished for something he did. He is going to what will probably be his grave thinking that the one person in all Thedas that he has ever loved will now hate him forever and curse the memory of him. He is misguided, yes, but if that is not love, what is?

[Knight of Dane]

It is not about how Anders feels love or friendship for Hawke, it is about Anders acheiving his ends by using Hawke's trust. He does that no matter what state their relationship is.
The Betrayal is lying to Hawke and the consequense is alot of unnecesarry deaths without gaining anything than attention the mages was not ready to own up to.
It was irrational and selfish.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 05 juillet 2011 - 01:04 .

[FieryDove]

berelinde wrote...

I considered that as the opposite of betrayal. He loved Hawke enough to risk destroying their relationship in order to protect him/her. The Chantry was going to go up. He needed to be sure that Hawke would not be blamed. Yes, he knew that Hawke would probably never forgive him for his deceit, but he did not expect to survive. Better Hawke should hate him than see Hawke punished for something he did. He is going to what will probably be his grave thinking that the one person in all Thedas that he has ever loved will now hate him forever and curse the memory of him. He is misguided, yes, but if that is not love, what is?

Very well said.

Also if you were romancing him as a female he warned you PLENTY of times he would hurt you/break your heart. He said it so many times to a female I'm surprised anyone continued trying. imho

[berelinde]

Well, yes, he only really warns Hawke that he's a heartbreaker if Hawke is female, but he loves Hawke regardless of gender or whether or not Hawke reciprocates. So yeah, haters will keep right on hating him, including KoD's Hawkes, I imagine, but he'll spend the whole game pining for them anyway. Yes, it's idiotic, but no one ever accused Anders of being sane.

[randomcheeses]

berelinde wrote...

Well, yes, he only really warns Hawke that he's a heartbreaker if Hawke is female, but he loves Hawke regardless of gender or whether or not Hawke reciprocates. So yeah, haters will keep right on hating him, including KoD's Hawkes, I imagine, but he'll spend the whole game pining for them anyway. Yes, it's idiotic, but no one ever accused Anders of being sane.

*sigh*

I don't hate Anders, and neither, I imagine does KnighofDane. I think he's an excellent character, a sweet and very romantice love interest and endlessly fascinating. This does not change the fact that he emotionally blackmails Hawke up the wazoo and flat out lies to Hawke's face and betrays him/her.

[Sharyhn]

 I have no doubt he loved Hawke in his own way and wanted to protect him from any kind of blame.

 I just find it hard to swallow that you can be with someone for that length of time,  plan starting a war, and still be able  to look them in the face as you lie and say everything is fine. To me that is just downright  deceitful.

 I think Anders was selfish and if he truly loved Hawke he should have walked away and spared him any pain, when  the idea first cropped up to start a war. To me that would have been true love.

 Oh my Hawke was male so i think he only said something once, and by that point I was omg why didn't I romance        someone else as his doom and gloom was getting on my nerves.

 Sorry to any Anders fans i know he is well liked.  ^ ^

Modifié par Sharyhn, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:17 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I wish Anders had been more up front about the substance of his fears rather than the drama of them. I feel like his romance was sold as something it was not, and it was sold in such a way as to be deliberately deceptive. It feels like on the surface, it's pitched as your typical "I'm a dangerous monster and will hurt you" tale, like Kyo in Furuba or Edward in Twilight or any of a hundred stories where a dude who isn't really all that dangerous warns off a prospective partner and then acceptance brings peace.

That's not what's on offer, though, and a tiny bit more questioning on Hawke's part or a tiny bit more revelation on Anders part would make that very clear.

I'm going to reuse something I wrote on the Anders thread a day or so ago: 

Anders isn't selfish... not in the way we conventionally consider the term. When he joined with Justice he made a fairly self-sacrificing decision: to give up his personality, his life, any future chance of happiness, and his very existence in exchange for a chance to make a difference for future generations.

I wish this was said more literally and explicitly, earlier in the game. He tells you he'll hurt you, and tells you that there will be more violence, but he doesn't explicitly say why, and kids today have been trained to think that such warnings are idle. Later on he'll say things like "I am the cause of mages, there is nothing else inside me." and "I'm a liar, I'm a monster, I never said I'd do anything but hurt you," but that's only after it's too late.

I just wish Hawke could press him more early on.

"Why are you so certain you'll hurt me?"
"Because while I am a man... I have this thing inside me. And I promised it we would work together to free mages. Someday I may have to do something you cannot forgive me for in pursuit of that aim. If you can still want me... despite that, then I have no resistance left."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:30 .

[Knight of Dane]

randomcheeses wrote...
I don't hate Anders, and neither, I imagine does KnighofDane.

No, i do not hate Anders. I liked his awakening personality and thinks that the story with him being posessed by Justice is excellent, i just think it is executed wrong.
He's whiney and when he is faced with opposition his answer is always violence, he never seeks out a peacefull path, which everyone knows is always present.
If he wasn't already posessed i'd bet a pride demon would easily do it, he's so frickin' pridefull throughout the whole game.
I had my own Andersmance run through and i thought it was okay, though i couldn't help but feel liek he was the female part of the relationship and not Hawke, he never owns up to anything except for when he blows people up.

I miss Anders from Awakening and are quite sad i feel the need to kill him in almost all my playthroughs, but i just can't see any reason for keeping him alive at that point.
And Sebastian is as valued to me as Anders, i do not favor one or the other of the two.

[FieryDove]

Sharyhn wrote...

 Oh my Hawke was male so i think he only said something once, and by that point I was omg why didn't I romance        someone else as his doom and gloom was getting on my nerves.

 Sorry to any Anders fans i know he is well liked.  ^ ^

With my male Hawke he never said I will hurt you or break your heart or this will be a disaster. I thought that was odd considering his talk after Justice quest when he says I told you I would break your heart. I was scratching my head...yes you did, a lot but that was my female Hawke.

I was/am a huge DAA Anders fan. I don't like what happened to him or Justice, they were my Wardens best pals.
But if I try and think this is a different NPC, not really Anders he is a great if tragic character. If I don't all I want to do IS find a real potion to seperate them and have my Warden come back just long enough to talk sense into both of them.

I don't approve of the chantry, its become too corrupt even if that corruption is =See no Evil, hear no evil, there is no evil. (Thinking along the lines that the templars could do no wrong, break chantry laws at the drop of the hat and the commander of them in Kirkwall is a raging lunatic even before idol) all imho

[ademska]

Knight of Dane wrote...
I had my own Andersmance run through and i thought it was okay, though i couldn't help but feel liek he was the female part of the relationship and not Hawke, he never owns up to anything except for when he blows people up.

oh.

you want to uh

elaborate on this a little more before i ask someone to hold my earrings?

Modifié par ademska, 05 juillet 2011 - 06:37 .

[Knight of Dane]

ademska wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
I had my own Andersmance run through and i thought it was okay, though i couldn't help but feel like he was the female part of the relationship and not Hawke, he never owns up to anything except for when he blows people up.

oh.

you want to uh

elaborate on this a little more before i ask someone to hold my earrings?

Which part of the part you highlighted do you want me to clarify?
Is it the female part? I romanced Anders as a female Hawke, is that so shocking? He acted like a teenage girl throughout all of the drama.
If it's about the part where he doesn't own up to anything, it is because he always talks bad of templars/chantry/Fenris and whatnot, he never admits the times he is wrong and he never does anything to see the other viewpoints and it all ends with him just giving it a fat middle finger and blowing up a bunch of people.

Perhaps i wrote it wrong, if so, then i apologize.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Knight of Dane wrote...

ademska wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
I had my own Andersmance run through and i thought it was okay, though i couldn't help but feel like he was the female part of the relationship and not Hawke, he never owns up to anything except for when he blows people up.

oh.

you want to uh

elaborate on this a little more before i ask someone to hold my earrings?

Which part of the part you highlighted do you want me to clarify?
Is it the female part? I romanced Anders as a female Hawke, is that so shocking? He acted like a teenage girl throughout all of the drama.
If it's about the part where he doesn't own up to anything, it is because he always talks bad of templars/chantry/Fenris and whatnot, he never admits the times he is wrong and he never does anything to see the other viewpoints and it all ends with him just giving it a fat middle finger and blowing up a bunch of people.

Perhaps i wrote it wrong, if so, then i apologize.

Ahem. I'm going to... try to explain what the problem here is.

The fact that you associate bieng whiny and weak with the "female part of a relationship" to start, and that you associating not owning your own actions with being female, etc. Those are pretty common threads in a lot of misogynist thinking, and a lot of the more negative portrayals of women in the media.

Both of your most recent posts threaten to throw me into a medium-grade gender rant, but I'm trying to be gentle here because you obviously don't understand what you're saying, or why it would be offensive.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:13 .

[phyreblade74]

Anders did.

[Knight of Dane]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

ademska wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
I had my own Andersmance run through and i thought it was okay, though i couldn't help but feel like he was the female part of the relationship and not Hawke, he never owns up to anything except for when he blows people up.

oh.

you want to uh

elaborate on this a little more before i ask someone to hold my earrings?

Which part of the part you highlighted do you want me to clarify?
Is it the female part? I romanced Anders as a female Hawke, is that so shocking? He acted like a teenage girl throughout all of the drama.
If it's about the part where he doesn't own up to anything, it is because he always talks bad of templars/chantry/Fenris and whatnot, he never admits the times he is wrong and he never does anything to see the other viewpoints and it all ends with him just giving it a fat middle finger and blowing up a bunch of people.

Perhaps i wrote it wrong, if so, then i apologize.

Ahem. I'm going to... try to explain what the problem here is.

The fact that you associate bieng whiny and weak with the "female part of a relationship" to start, and that you associating not owning your own actions with being female, etc. Those are pretty common threads in a lot of misogynist thinking, and a lot of the more negative portrayals of women in the media.

Both of your most recent posts threaten to throw me into a medium-grade gender rant, but I'm trying to be gentle here because you obviously don't understand what you're saying, or why it would be offensive.

I don't mind, i can't write it better than what i did.

[Carmen_Willow]

I lost Fenris one playthrough because I hadn't rivalled him enough....and Sebastian the only time I let the crazy terrorist mage live. But that's it.

[Grandsteak94]

ISabela and Carver betrayed me on my mage run through. KInda depressing actually :<

[Knight of Dane]

Carver? Because he was a templar?

[maxernst]

Isabela and Fenris. Anders couldn't really be said to betray me as I dumped him after he killed Ella. I had a small party at the end of the game.

[dewayne31]

i felt betrayed by anders never liked him always kill him. fenris once. now he doesn't get recruited or i let his master have him. nobody threatens bethany nobody.

is possible to loose merrill if she the only mage left. i know book said yes..

[Knight of Dane]

dewayne31 wrote...

i felt betrayed by anders never liked him always kill him. fenris once. now he doesn't get recruited or i let his master have him. nobody threatens bethany nobody.

is possible to loose merrill if she the only mage left. i know book said yes..

I have never tried myself as i love her, but i hear it can only be doen when either you rival Anders and side with templars or have Betany becoem a Grey Warden.
Don't quote me though.

[Nohe]

Fenris betrayed me on my first playthrough, though I in essence allowed it. I would have been able to 'convince' him but I didn't feel like I should have had to beg him to stand by me (after years of friendship and those darn personal quests).

On that same playthrough, I believe that Sebastian had the right to feel betrayed by my Hawke. By the end I was as fed up with Elthina's inaction as Anders & admitted as such. That was probably more of a betrayal than letting Anders live simply because I loved him too much to do anything else.

[Wereparrot]

berelinde wrote...

Sharyhn wrote...

I'm going to have to go with Anders, my Hawke was in a romance with him and when the Chantry went up i just felt wow.
If i'm honest i really didn't give a crap about the Chantry blowing up, i personally would have helped him myself. :innocent:

It's probably more to do with my beliefs than how I played my Hawke, but it felt like a slap in the face that he had been with my Hawke  for so long and felt he couldn't trust him enough to say anything. So it felt like betrayel kind of. 

But as i say that's just my opinion, im a great believer in trust and honesty in any relationship. ^ ^

I considered that as the opposite of betrayal. He loved Hawke enough to risk destroying their relationship in order to protect him/her. The Chantry was going to go up. He needed to be sure that Hawke would not be blamed. Yes, he knew that Hawke would probably never forgive him for his deceit, but he did not expect to survive. Better Hawke should hate him than see Hawke punished for something he did. He is going to what will probably be his grave thinking that the one person in all Thedas that he has ever loved will now hate him forever and curse the memory of him. He is misguided, yes, but if that is not love, what is?

Anders must have known that the result of his actions would be to plunge Hawke into war; how then was Anders trying to protect Hawke? It is not love. It is selfish. Anders was willing to sacrifice Hawke for his own ends.

[Nightdragon8]

IMO, Anders is the big betrayer because he used Hawkes trust to do something horrible.

The only other person I would say besides Anders, is Orsino. Considering he was learning and helping a known bloodmage with his "work"

[Sshodan]

Fenris. If you treat him in a friendly manner but help mages he turns on you in the end, which feels like a betrayal to me after all the quests you do for him, all that comforting and protecting him from his former master... If that is not a betrayal than I don't know what is.