108 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

Well, others have already touched on the inanity of that comment so I'll just leave it at "lol".

What it tells me is that he sees a valuable asset walking away and his goals are too important to not work with the asset. He is only agrees to help Hawke in the beginning as a means to an end and I refuse to kid myself into thinking that he doesn't have an agenda of his own.

What caused you to extrapolate "Anders needs Hawke to blow up the Chantry" from "Anders needs Hawke's help with Karl"? Anders's reaction to Hawke walking away didn't convey to me anything other than that he really wants help with what he explicitly states he wants help with, which is Karl. If there's anything he's wary about, it's his nature as an abomination coming to light.

[upsettingshorts]

DreGregoire wrote...

I'm demanding you agree with me? Where was it I said that? *shrugs*

Refusing to justify or give evidence for the thought process underlining your argument is basically the same thing.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:34 .

[DreGregoire]

d

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 juillet 2011 - 10:10 .

[ademska]

DreGregoire wrote...
Anders admits to having multiple reasons for coming that he does not share with us; he does however share that he wishes to save Karl and other mages. So it's up to interpretation or guess work as you get to know him what else he is up to. He doesn't immediately share with us about Karl when he brings up the subject it is an after thought. "A favor for a favor." Here's somebody who might be useful to me. I won't give him anything unless he helps me. Ever try walking away? The way he reacts is telling as well. What it tells me is that he sees a valuable asset walking away and his goals are too important to not work with the asset. He is only agrees to help Hawke in the beginning as a means to an end and I refuse to kid myself into thinking that he doesn't have an agenda of his own. I mean I knew what my Hawke wanted from the beginning and what his end goal was. Enter Kirkwall and live as my ancestors did. Why would I assume that Anders is any different.

I sometimes forget that everybody doesn't think the same way I do. Sorry about that.

okay, now we're cooking with gas. fizzles, like the lightest weight of gas, pure hydrogen really, but still gas.

you are right about one thing, anders has an agenda when he comes to kirkwall:
1. evade the wardens, several of whom he murdered after his joining with justice (per his short story)
2. escape ferelden, as his phylactery is presumably still intact following awakening. we know these are concerns because he expresses them in party banter, he believes he'll one day get recaptured by one or the other.
*3*. aid the mages of kirkwall, and that one needs no specific examples since it's rather his entire purpose in da2

nothing you just told me points definitively toward anders coming to kirkwall with the explicit plans to destroy the kirkwall chantry with elthina intentionally inside. i don't feel like picking through minutia, so let's look at the big picture and ultimately the greatest point against your argument, then:

the plot of dragon age 2 is typically criticised because it's not an overarching, rising-action-falling-action story, it's a changing set of political circumstances over the course of 7 years. at the outset, while mages are not treated as liberally in kirkwall as they are in, say, ferelden, the friction is not so great that even the slightest spark (literally or metaphorically) would set it off.  furthermore, meredith is sane, hasn't been pushed through six years of tension, and is not under the idol's influence. if anders blew up the chantry in acts 1 or 2, he'd likely be punished for his crimes and that would be the end of it. in act 2, the qunari might go nuts, but the city would not be embroiled in a mage-vs-templar war because it is between acts 2 and 3 that the tension actually escalates. this is clear not only through act 3 itself but in codex entries.

unless you are positing that anders somehow batman'd hawke into getting the lyrium idol that he omnisciently knew was down there in the thaig and that meredith would later acquire it through third-hand channels, and that he nostradamus'd that circumstances in kirkwall itself would escalate to the breaking point, there is just no way he could have foreseen off the bat that blowing up the chantry would yield the results it ended up having.

a more convincing (and perhaps for you, more palatable) argument would be to say that anders came to kirkwall with the evolving intention of causing a big splash somehow. his endgoal is indisputably to free mages across the entire world, and given his nature with justice, it's not unreasonable to assume he would become ruthless about it.

as far as hawke is concerned, anders is taking a HUGE risk with karl and with trusting hawke to help him. he's a wanted apostate warden, man, and he spends the entire game being paranoid. of course he would be with hawke at first, too.

[upsettingshorts]

DreGregoire wrote...

I'm requesting this thread be closed because you are asking more of me than I am willing to give. Thanks for well... making me realize starting this thread was conterproductive. Run along and harrass others now. LOL

"I failed to convey my arguments in a convincing fashion and my opinions were not validated by others.  I do not wish to expend the necessary effort this discussion requires.  I'm taking my ball and going back to what I think is the moral high ground."

lol.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:39 .

[ademska]

GOD ARE YOU SERIOUS YOU WANT TO CLOSE THE THREAD? jesus ****ing christ

[Xalen]

DreGregoire wrote...

I'm requesting this thread be closed because you are asking more of me than I am willing to give.

Or you could, you know, not read and not write in it and leave it as a place for discussion on discussion board 

Modifié par Xalen, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:42 .

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

Clearly he is actually in cahoots with Bowser and came to the hellmouth to open a portal to Mushroom Kingdom.

Don't worry about supporting your accusation with examples. As long as you assert the evidence is there, it's everyone else's responsibility to find it. If they find no such evidence it's because they "don't think" like you do and they need to learn about body language.

[DreGregoire]

Sorry Ademska but I started it to have fun and all I hear is give me more give me more. You could always start your own thread once mine is closed.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 juillet 2011 - 10:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ OP
There is no need to close the thread.

Interesting theory, but one I disagree with. I don't think that "reasons" plural was supposed to be taken literally. We say "for my own reasons" all the time, even when we have one reason in mind. And I am not sure I see the body language that supposedly hints at him having ulterior motives.  Before Act 3, I think he was very transparent in fact. 

I do agree that he always had an agenda, that of promoting mage freedom. But that's not the same as having the exact same specific plan in mind. Indeed, everything he does in Act 1 and 2 seem to contradict your theory. I don't think it's likely had an overarching plan and I wouldn't have thought it was interesting. What I like about Anders as a character is his gradual devolution. 

That said, don't be discouraged. I think there are ways to refine your argument and theory more

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:51 .

[ademska]

DreGregoire wrote...

Sorry Ademska but I started it to have fun and all I hear is give me more give me more. You could always start your own thread once mine is closed.

you started the thread to answer questions what

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

I'm requesting this thread be closed because you are asking more of me than I am willing to give. Thanks for well... making me realize starting this thread was conterproductive. Run along and harrass others now. LOL

You think requesting a modicum of thought and subtance in your arguments is harrassment?



I'm sorry, guy, but to have a substantive debate there actually has to be something to argue. "I just believe it" and "you can't prove he didn't" are not standpoints that can be reasoned with. You need to provide more if there is anything to be discussed here.

[FieryDove]

DreGregoire wrote...
Anders admits to having multiple reasons for coming that he does not share with us; he does however share that he wishes to save Karl and other mages. So it's up to interpretation or guess work as you get to know him what else he is up to. He doesn't immediately share with us about Karl when he brings up the subject it is an after thought. "A favor for a favor." Here's somebody who might be useful to me. I won't give him anything unless he helps me. Ever try walking away? The way he reacts is telling as well. What it tells me is that he sees a valuable asset walking away and his goals are too important to not work with the asset.

I sometimes forget that everybody doesn't think the same way I do. Sorry about that.

This is an interesting line of thought "Anders planned it all along".

In my games however I didn't see it. I took it as helping Karl, then refugees, and then in Act 2 he joined the underground resistance whose solution was helping mages escape. In fact Anders can make a remark helping 5 mages do just that during Dissent.

I feel by the time act 3 rolls around there isn’t much left except something more drastic..
 If I am remembering wrong forgive…meds sigh

Modifié par FieryDove, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:51 .

[Wulfram]

I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

[ademska]

Wulfram wrote...
I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

not unless justice is combo xanatos and mother shipton, he didn't.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

not unless justice is combo xanatos and mother shipton, he didn't.

A big no for the former.

[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

Justice is Anders. What one knows, so does the other.

[Ryzaki]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

Eh I don't think Justice is bright enough. 

[mesmerizedish]

ipgd wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

Justice is Anders. What one knows, so does the other.

Until the bomb-planting blackouts happen.

[Wulfram]

ademska wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

not unless justice is combo xanatos and mother shipton, he didn't.

1. Plant bomb in Chantry
2. Templars overreact, kill lots of people
3. ????
4. Mage Freedom!

doesn't require a huge amount of foresight or planning.  Only that Anders' will is sufficient broken that he will go along with it.

[ademska]

Wulfram wrote...
1. Plant bomb in Chantry
2. Templars overreact, kill lots of people
3. ????
4. Mage Freedom!

doesn't require a huge amount of foresight or planning.  Only that Anders' will is sufficient broken that he will go along with it.

you forgot "know that over six years mage-templar tensions will escalate to a breaking point", "know that the qunari would murder the viscount", "know that meredith would take full advantage of the power vacuum" , "know that the lyrium idol was in the thaig", "know that bartrand would betray varric&hawke", "know that bartrand would sell it to meredith", "know that it would corrupt meredith to the point of insanity", and of course "orchestrate all these events into a scenario where blowing up the chantry would have the desired effect"

soooooooooo no.

now if you wanna say janders planned it in act 3, that's a whole different story.

[ipgd]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

Justice is Anders. What one knows, so does the other.

Until the bomb-planting blackouts happen.

Anders isn't blacked out for six years, though.

[ademska]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Until the bomb-planting blackouts happen.

now now

some of us like to bro and/or bed the boy, ain't no bomb blackouts there