108 réponses à ce sujet

[ademska]

ipgd wrote...
Anders isn't blacked out for six years, though.

of course he is don't you know justice is a force of evil possessing poor anders and ripping off heads

[lv12medic]

The thing about Anders is everything he does is a complete failure at bringing about change until he makes the Chantry go boom.

Act 1 Anders: Helping mages and refugees, starts working with the mage underground. Mage underground doesn't accomplish much.

Act 2 Anders: Full fledged operative/ring leader in the mage underground. Mage underground become a cesspool of failure do to incompetence, Templars, and insane (usually blood) mages.

Act 3 Anders: Mage underground becomes lost cause, Anders looks for a new outlet. Force mage-templar conflict by blowing up the entity in Kirkwall keeping things stable (ie. Chantry and Grand Cleric Elthina).

Anders changes throughout the game because of his own failures (whether they be his fault or not).

[mesmerizedish]

ipgd wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Anders planned it all along. Maybe Justice did.

Justice is Anders. What one knows, so does the other.

Until the bomb-planting blackouts happen.

Anders isn't blacked out for six years, though.

I know. I'm totally on your side in this. I'm just pointing out that they're not a unitary entity. Frienders totally moves toward that, and perhaps even accomplishes a complete merger, but Rival!Anders certainly broadens the gap between Anders and Justice. They're not one and the same.

[ipgd]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I know. I'm totally on your side in this. I'm just pointing out that they're not a unitary entity. Frienders totally moves toward that, and perhaps even accomplishes a complete merger, but Rival!Anders certainly broadens the gap between Anders and Justice. They're not one and the same.

Welllll, this isn't really the thread for this, but this is the most sense I can make of Anderps.

[mesmerizedish]

ipgd wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I know. I'm totally on your side in this. I'm just pointing out that they're not a unitary entity. Frienders totally moves toward that, and perhaps even accomplishes a complete merger, but Rival!Anders certainly broadens the gap between Anders and Justice. They're not one and the same.

Welllll, this isn't really the thread for this, but this is the most sense I can make of Anderps.

So... you view his Justice!blackouts more as his entering a sort of fugue state than as a manifestation of discrete selves.

I can see that.

[Wulfram]

ademska wrote...

you forgot "know that over six years mage-templar tensions will escalate to a breaking point", "know that the qunari would murder the viscount", "know that meredith would take full advantage of the power vacuum" , "know that the lyrium idol was in the thaig", "know that bartrand would betray varric&hawke", "know that bartrand would sell it to meredith", "know that it would corrupt meredith to the point of insanity", and of course "orchestrate all these events into a scenario where blowing up the chantry would have the desired effect"

The first is predictable - particularly with JAnders helping to stir the pot - the rest are unnecessary for the desired outcome.

[jlb524]

I thought Anders fled to Kirkwall in order to:

1) avoid the Grey Wardens
2) help Karl specifically
3) try to generally help out mages in Kirkwall in some way, though he didn't have a concrete plan at that time.

I see the Chantry things as an act of desperation after 7 years of trying to find more peaceful solutions.

[mesmerizedish]

jlb524 wrote...

I see the Chantry things as an act of desperation after 7 years of trying to find more peaceful solutions.

Not just trying to find peaceful solutions, but realizing that peaceful solutions were either not possible or, indeed, detrimental and unjust.

It's like white people telling blacks "It's not the right time yet. Just wait a little longer." Social justice can't wait. I've already expressed some disdain for Anders's choice of violence instead of civil disobedience, but explosive Jenga is dramatic

[ipgd]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

So... you view his Justice!blackouts more as his entering a sort of fugue state than as a manifestation of discrete selves.

I can see that.

Something like that.

As I've said before, it's not an entirely satisfactory explanation or one I even particularly like, but these are the only conclusions I can come to that reconcile his statements regarding his and Justice's merge as a total assimilation and his later inconsistent behaviors and remarks attributing Justice with way more autonomy than a completely merged being could have. And inconsistency is way more annoying than not-entirely-satisfactory-but-consistent-gross-over-analyses!!!

[ademska]

jlb524 wrote...
I thought Anders fled to Kirkwall in order to:

1) avoid the Grey Wardens
2) help Karl specifically
3) try to generally help out mages in Kirkwall in some way, though he didn't have a concrete plan at that time.

I see the Chantry things as an act of desperation after 7 years of trying to find more peaceful solutions.

BECAUSE YOU ARE SANE

Modifié par ademska, 04 juillet 2011 - 10:15 .

[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...

The first is predictable - particularly with JAnders helping to stir the pot - the rest are unnecessary for the desired outcome.

They aren't, though. He accomplished something very specific in destroying the Chantry. He couldn't just have done it at any time; it was contingent on Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment upon Elthina's death. And he wouldn't have known she was likely to do that, likely enough to take such a massive action, until Act III.

[jlb524]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Not just trying to find peaceful solutions, but realizing that peaceful solutions were either not possible or, indeed, detrimental and unjust.

It's like white people telling blacks "It's not the right time yet. Just wait a little longer." Social justice can't wait. I've already expressed some disdain for Anders's choice of violence instead of civil disobedience, but explosive Jenga is dramatic

I agree.

I do wonder what form of civil disobedience could work against Meredith?  I can't think of any atm.

Modifié par jlb524, 04 juillet 2011 - 10:19 .

[ademska]

merrill and anders could tromp through the chantry gardens, that might get her bent

[ademska]

Filament wrote...
You make it out to be a psychological matter rather than there being an actual demon involved... unless you mean that's what demonic possession really boils down to. A singular entity with psychological problems and magic.

unless you mean that's what demonic possession really boils down to. A singular entity with psychological problems and magic.

unless you mean that's what demonic possession really boils down to

that's what demonic possession really boils down to

demonic possession

i think i found the problem

[ipgd]

Filament wrote...

You make it out to be a psychological matter rather than there being an actual demon involved... unless you mean that's what demonic possession really boils down to. A singular entity with psychological problems and magic.

I'm just trying to make the information fit into the statements he gives that he and Justice are completely merged. There's certainly magical hanky-panky going on, but the inconsistencies in his explanations of his nature would be psychological.

[legbamel]

jlb524 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Not just trying to find peaceful solutions, but realizing that peaceful solutions were either not possible or, indeed, detrimental and unjust.

It's like white people telling blacks "It's not the right time yet. Just wait a little longer." Social justice can't wait. I've already expressed some disdain for Anders's choice of violence instead of civil disobedience, but explosive Jenga is dramatic

I agree.

I do wonder what form of civil disobedience could work against Meredith?  I can't think of any atm.

In theory, he could start with "the people" and convince them to join apostates in sit-ins and demonstrations which could, if the movement got large enough, force Elthina to act in some way.  Realistically, there aren't enough Circle escapees and free mages to get much going and Kirkwall is just about the last place they'd find much support considering the prevalence of blood magic and abomination sprouting.

[Xewaka]

Filament wrote...
You make it out to be a psychological matter rather than there being an actual demon involved... unless you mean that's what demonic possession really boils down to. A singular entity with psychological problems and magic.

I like how people like to blame Justice for corrupting Anders when the truth is closer to the opposite (Anders corrupted Justice).

[DreGregoire]

Please take your discussions to other threads (start your own whatever) so I stop getting emails about people responding to a thread I am trying to get closed. Thanks.

[legbamel]

Xewaka wrote...

Filament wrote...
You make it out to be a psychological matter rather than there being an actual demon involved... unless you mean that's what demonic possession really boils down to. A singular entity with psychological problems and magic.

I like how people like to blame Justice for corrupting Anders when the truth is closer to the opposite (Anders corrupted Justice).

Well, it was a bit of a two-way street.  Anders warped Justice and Justice shoved Anders to act, act, constantly act because coming from the Fade it had no sense of time or the subtlety of waiting for the right moment.  And when the acts were not effective Anders and Justice had to keep coming up with new things to try because the injustice only got worse the longer they stayed and tried to make it better.  I think the situation did as much to make Justice into Vengeance as Anders's anger did.

[DreGregoire]

DreGregoire wrote...

Please take your discussions to other threads (start your own whatever) so I stop getting emails about people responding to a thread I am trying to get closed. Thanks.

Rinse and repeat.

[ipgd]

Xewaka wrote...

I like how people like to blame Justice for corrupting Anders when the truth is closer to the opposite (Anders corrupted Justice).

It's both.

They're kinda both exactly the worst kind of person for either of them to merge with.

[DreGregoire]

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Please take your discussions to other threads (start your own whatever) so I stop getting emails about people responding to a thread I am trying to get closed. Thanks.

Rinse and repeat.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

I like how people like to blame Justice for corrupting Anders when the truth is closer to the opposite (Anders corrupted Justice).

It's both.

They're kinda both exactly the worst kind of person for either of them to merge with.

Agreed. And I don't think either of them were deliberatly wanting this.

[DreGregoire]

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Please take your discussions to other threads (start your own whatever) so I stop getting emails about people responding to a thread I am trying to get closed. Thanks.

Rinse and repeat.