108 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

ipgd wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
I like how people like to blame Justice for corrupting Anders when the truth is closer to the opposite (Anders corrupted Justice).

It's both.
They're kinda both exactly the worst kind of person for either of them to merge with.

That's why I said "closer to the opposite" instead of "the opposite".

[upsettingshorts]

Exactly.

Justice - as a Fade Spirit, working as intended pre-merger - can objectively evaluate the relative justice or injustice of certain events. It's the same concept that leads to the saying, "Justice is blind." Before the merger, Justice is unbiased.

Anders on the other hand understands the injustice of the mages' plight, but he is a mortal man with all the nuances that come with it. Including but not limited to compassion (for the lives of the Chantry-goers who were simply there to pray, for example) and fear (what motivates him to simply run).

Justice gains a bias that clouds his judgement, and Anders loses the ability to think in broader terms.

I'm sure I've put that better before somewhere else, though.

[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Agreed. And I don't think either of them were deliberatly wanting this.

I think they both thought it'd be great, and they had no idea what they were actually getting themselves in to.

[DreGregoire]

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Please take your discussions to other threads (start your own whatever) so I stop getting emails about people responding to a thread I am trying to get closed. Thanks.

Rinse and repeat.

'
Inconsiderate much?

[legbamel]

DreGregoire wrote...
Inconsiderate much?

Could you unsubscribe to the thread, perhaps, instead of trying to keep people from having a conversation?

[Xewaka]

Filament wrote...
It's hinted in a way that Justice had already started to become corrupted prior to joining with Anders, in conversations in Awakening. That aside though, I'm not blaming Justice, not exactly. Anders corrupted Justice into Vengeance, yes (unintentionally), but without Vengeance (now a demon) Anders' anger probably wouldn't have manifested the way that it did. I suppose they're both to blame for being foolish enough to agree to a union. Though apparently Justice was the one who persuaded them into that deal.

It's Nathaniel's fault, clearly. He was the one to suggest Justice the merging with a willing living host.

[ipgd]

Filament wrote...

Though apparently Justice was the one who persuaded them into that deal.

It was a mutual thing, as far as I can tell.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Xewaka wrote...

It's Nathaniel's fault, clearly. He was the one to suggest Justice the merging with a willing living host.

THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG

Why Nate why must you break my heart

[DreGregoire]

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Please take your discussions to other threads (start your own whatever) so I stop getting emails about people responding to a thread I am trying to get closed. Thanks.

Rinse and repeat.

'
Inconsiderate much?

[upsettingshorts]

Dre, quit spamming the thread.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Agreed. And I don't think either of them were deliberatly wanting this.

I think they both thought it'd be great, and they had no idea what they were actually getting themselves in to.

I am not sure they, or at least Anders, were that optimistic about it, but I agree that they don't seem to know what they are getting themselves into.

[upsettingshorts]

I dunno, I don't think "merge my consciousness with a Fade spirit" is something someone does halfheartedly except possibly under duress in an act of desperation. I'm not sure that was the context of the merger at all. Seemed to me like it was entirely voluntary.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I never read the short story, so I don't know, but that's the impression I got from reading what others said about it.

[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never read the short story, so I don't know, but that's the impression I got from reading what others said about it.

The one where he blacked out and nibbled on Templar corpses?  Or a different one?

[Xewaka]

Filament wrote...
I don't remember exactly, but I seem to recall asking Anders about when they merged, upon which he said something along the lines of "He (Justice) said I had a responsibility to help my fellow mages.. etc etc." Seeming to imply Justice kind of "talked" Anders into it.

DA 2 stablished Anders as a consumate liar that will omit or alter whatever is needed in a conversation to get his desired results. I'd take anything coming directly from DA 2 Anders as an unreliable source.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never read the short story, so I don't know, but that's the impression I got from reading what others said about it.

The one where he blacked out and nibbled on Templar corpses?  Or a different one?

How many are there?
From what I remember from posts here, Anders merged with Justice when his life was in danger.

[ipgd]

Filament wrote...

I don't remember exactly, but I seem to recall asking Anders about when they merged, upon which he said something along the lines of "He (Justice) said I had a responsibility to help my fellow mages.. etc etc." Seeming to imply Justice kind of "talked" Anders into it.

He probably convinced him, but Justice doesn't seem the type to have actively pressured Anders about it. He was very iffy about the moral implications of possessing a living body to begin with, so I imagine he'd be very big on making sure that's what Anders really wanted to do.

[ipgd]

Xewaka wrote...

DA 2 stablished Anders as a consumate liar that will omit or alter whatever is needed in a conversation to get his desired results. I'd take anything coming directly from DA 2 Anders as an unreliable source.

Uh, wut? If anything, DA2 established Anders as an awful liar. The one time he lies outright, you can see straight through him. He couldn't keep up a convincing deception to save his life.

And this is the only short story I'm aware of.

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
How many are there?
From what I remember from posts here, Anders merged with Justice when his life was in danger.

there's just the one, and the way i interpreted it, rolan (the templar warden) was really up his ass, possibly to the point of duress, but anders still made a likely voluntary decision to merge with justice. after they merged, rolan decided to take him out, and janders retaliated.

...by nibbling on corpses, yes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
How many are there?
From what I remember from posts here, Anders merged with Justice when his life was in danger.

there's just the one, and the way i interpreted it, rolan (the templar warden) was really up his ass, possibly to the point of duress, but anders still made a likely voluntary decision to merge with justice. after they merged, rolan decided to take him out, and janders retaliated.

...by nibbling on corpses, yes.

Oh....I see.
Thanks for the mental image!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I more lean toward the idea that Justice and Anders merged knowing that it was possible that it would go horribly wrong, but both were willing to risk it. I also think it was done out of desperation by both of them: Justice wanted to stay in this world and also burned to counter the injustice that mages suffer, while Anders felt like he had absolutely nothing left to hope for, and wanted to have some point to his life.

Lore-wise, we know only this:

Justice does fear becoming a demon, more than anything else, and associates possessing a human body with that idea.

Nate suggested it, and said that if Justice gave rather than took, he wouldn't be a demon (this is one of those things I feel the need to remind Justice of, often.)

Justice and Anders have those Awakenings banters (they're easy enough to look up) about striking out against his oppressors. They basically reveal that Anders doesn't fight the Templars because he fears death, doesn't want to do anything difficult, and basically believes that life isn't fair, so he has no real imperative to help others. Justice does have the strength, doesn't fear death, and believes that an inherent obligation does exist.

In DA2, Anders confesses to having been bothered by those banters to some extent, to the point that they made him actually feel guilty about not helping his fellow mages.

In the short story, Justice is still in Kristoff's corpse when he makes the offer. He says this "It is time. You have shown me an injustice greater than any I have faced. Do you have the courage to accept my aid?"

The picture I get from all this is that it had been discussed back and forth for some time, but Justice pushed the final offer - though at that time, I assume they were basically in agreement. The problem is that the circumstances that lead to Anders being desperate enough to consider the merger also lead to Justice/Vengeance immediately and violently reacting in self-defense, in a way that horrified the human part of Anders. This lead to Anders thinking he had corrupted Justice, which fed Justice's fear of becoming a demon, which caused Justice to become angrier, which caused Anders to fear that he had corrupted his friend more, and down and down.

[Xewaka]

ipgd wrote...
Uh, wut? If anything, DA2 established Anders as an awful liar. The one time he lies outright, you can see straight through him. He couldn't keep up a convincing deception to save his life.

You, as the player, can. Hawke, the PC, is a different matter.

Filament wrote...
Well I don't see why he would have lied about that. To blame Justice? I don't think he was doing that. Neither am I, really. I'm not saying Justice forced the matter, and Anders, being trained in the Circle, should have known full well the dangers of agreeing to such a thing.

To victimize himself and help making himself more agreeable.

Modifié par Xewaka, 05 juillet 2011 - 12:14 .