483 réponses à ce sujet

[Orion1836]

Valdrane78 wrote...

P.S. the way people gain ranks in the Airforce is a joke, take a test and become a staff NCO. I am of the opinion that if half those people tried to gain rank in the Marine Corps, they wouldn't make is past E-4.

<-- Career Air Force over here, and I can tell you that those tests are balls-out hard, and they're not the only thing that determines whether or not you get promoted. An Airman's overall duty performance is going to show up on his EPRs, and those will make or break someone when it comes to making rank.

Inter-service pissing contests aside, Kaidan's promotions seem realistic. "Fast-tracked" officers still exist, though the practice is starting to fall by the wayside. In the real military, officers with solid leadership skills, relationships with influential people, and the opportunity to showcase their abilities will be promoted much faster than their peers. In Kaidan's case, he had all three. With Shepard gone, who else would the Alliance choose as their poster-boy?

It irks me that he outranks Shepard now, but it makes sense. I was hoping for a promotion for Shepard at the start of ME3, but that was before the Arrival DLC. A court martial generally ruins one's chance of getting promoted.

Too bad he's a pile of ash (pun very much intended) in my canon playthrough. I liked Kaidan, but Ash is hot...

[JEMEDAOME2]

In ME Shepard out-ranked Kaiden and he treated him/her with all respect a superior officer demands. in ME2 shepard outranked Kaiden by simple fact he/she was a spectre or if you turned down reistatement a civvie in which case Alenko's rank means nothing by ME3 I'm pretty sure Kaiden would be deferring to Shepard in all major command decisions because spectre status or no it's clear who better skilled and more experienced marine is

[capn233]

Han Shot First wrote...

A Spectre doesn't 'outrank' military personnel, because Spectres are completely outside a military chain of command.

True enough, but that means Kaidan can't give him orders.  It is also why Hackett does not give Shepard orders in ME.  He asks him for help, and even notes that he is not obligated due to being a Spectre.

The Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance is a civilian intelligence agency.

They are well armed for civillians.

Shepard was able to command an Alliance military vessel in Mass Effect 1 because in addition to being a Spectre, he was a Lt. Commander in the Alliance military.

Odd, considering that he wasn't in the Alliance chain of command any longer.

With that in mind Kaidan outranking Shepard is an issue if Shepard returns to ME3 as both a Spectre AND an Alliance military officer. If so Kaidan should be in command of the Normandy since the crew answers to the Alliance chain of command...

No it does not work like that.  If Shepard is put in command of the Normandy, then he is in command.  Kaidan as a higher rank has no bearing on that.  Shepard is still in charge of all matters Normandy.  Chain of command doesn't mean that everyone who has a higher rank than you is necessarily in your chain of command.

We don't even know if Kaidan is an unrestricted line officer in the Alliance (or admittedly if they make that sort of distinction).  Was he the XO after Shepard was CO?  What was his job besides standing around exactly?  For all I know he could be an intelligence officer.

Modifié par capn233, 20 septembre 2011 - 06:09 .

[Han Shot First]

The really odd thing about Shepard however, is that he wasn't posthumously promoted to Staff Commander when he was killed in action. He is the savior of the Citadel, humanity's first Spectre and one of it's greatest heroes. A posthumous promotion when he is killed in action would practically be routine considering his accomplishments.

That could be a route for Bioware to climb out of the hole they dug themselves in with the rank structure, and Shepard now being Kaidan's subordinate. They could simply reveal in ME3 that Shepard was posthumously promoted while still KIA. That would not only make him the same rank as Kaidan but give him the edge in time in grade, bumping Kaidan back down to his subordinate.

No it does not work like that.  If Shepard is put in command of the Normandy, then he is in command.  Kaidan as a higher rank has no bearing on that.  Shepard is still in charge of all matters Normandy.  Chain of command doesn't mean that everyone who has a higher rank than you is necessarily in your chain of command.

Assuming Kaidan outranks Shepard in ME3, why would Shepard be appointed CO of the Normandy over Kaidan? Why would they even end up on the same vessel in that case? If Shepard is going to be the CO, Kaidan should end up assigned elsewhere.

I can't recall a single instance during my time in the military where a junior officer was placed in a command billet, above someone that outranks him.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 20 septembre 2011 - 06:15 .

[Orion1836]

Han Shot First wrote...

The really odd thing about Shepard however, is that he wasn't posthumously promoted to Staff Commander when he was killed in action. He is the savior of the Citadel, humanity's first Spectre and one of it's greatest heroes. A posthumous promotion when he is killed in action would practically be routine considering his accomplishments.

That could be a route for Bioware to climb out of the hole they dug themselves in with the rank structure, and Shepard now being Kaidan's subordinate. They could simply reveal in ME3 that Shepard was posthumously promoted while still KIA. That would not only make him the same rank as Kaidan but give him the edge in time in grade, bumping Kaidan back down to his subordinate.

No it does not work like that.  If Shepard is put in command of the Normandy, then he is in command.  Kaidan as a higher rank has no bearing on that.  Shepard is still in charge of all matters Normandy.  Chain of command doesn't mean that everyone who has a higher rank than you is necessarily in your chain of command.

Assuming Kaidan outranks Shepard in ME3, why would Shepard be appointed CO of the Normandy over Kaidan? Why would they even end up on the same vessel in that case? If Shepard is going to be the CO, Kaidan should end up assigned elsewhere.

I can't recall a single instance during my time in the military where a junior officer was placed in a command billet, above someone that outranks him.

Happens all the time in the Air Force. Routinely, there are mission commanders on crew aircraft who outrank the aircraft commander. While in flight though, regardless of rank, the aircraft commander has the final authority regarding the safe operation of that aircraft. If he unnecessarily overrides the mission commander, he may answer for it on the ground later, but he is still in command for the duration of the flight.

The same thing is true if a higher ranking officer is flying as a wingman - he may have rank on the ground, but in the air he must follow the flight lead's directions.

[111987]

Han Shot First wrote...

I can't recall a single instance during my time in the military where a junior officer was placed in a command billet, above someone that outranks him.

Then again, Shepard is the one who stopped Saren and Sovereign, and destroyed the Collectors, and prevented the Reapers from using the Alpha Relay to ensure them winning the war. I think in this highly unique situation, Shepard could still be XO of the Normandy. Besides, Kaidan doesn't have the balls to challenge Shepard for the role of Alpha Dog

[Inquisitor Recon]

Am I the only one under the impression that somebody in the Systems Alliance brass really doesn't like Shepard? You'd think he'd gotten a promotion for saving the whole galaxy. Being a Spectre it would have been more of a honorary thing anyway it seems.

[111987]

ReconTeam wrote...

Am I the only one under the impression that somebody in the Systems Alliance brass really doesn't like Shepard? You'd think he'd gotten a promotion for saving the whole galaxy. Being a Spectre it would have been more of a honorary thing anyway it seems.

Well, being a Spectre allows him to be above the law and only answer to three/four individuals in the entire galaxy (the Council), so I'd say it has it's perks

[wolf99000]

I was thinking some more about this last night and I am sure kaidan and ash are not in the n7 as it is explained in the codec n7 is special forces so I am guessing shepard will still outrank them as he is in the elite forces and ash and kaidan were just part of the Alliance regular military

so I still say if there is no end to the trail when the reapers turn up are you really in the alliance once you take off from earth as you would still be under arrest which would count you out of commanding a ship

[capn233]

Han Shot First wrote...
Assuming Kaidan outranks Shepard in ME3, why would Shepard be appointed CO of the Normandy over Kaidan? Why would they even end up on the same vessel in that case? If Shepard is going to be the CO, Kaidan should end up assigned elsewhere.

I can't recall a single instance during my time in the military where a junior officer was placed in a command billet, above someone that outranks him.

To clarify, I am asserting that it isn't a problem in the sense that they can explain it without necessarily giving Shepard a promotion.

It may have been odd that Shepard wasn't promoted to full Cmdr when Anderson stepped down.  I guess there isn't a minimum rank for commanding a frigate in the Alliance, or it is Lt Cmdr.  Or they gifted the ship to him... which is strange since he wasn't totally under their command.  I imagine he would have been promoted after saving the Citadel if nothing else, was there actually dialogue or something to confirm he was still a Lt Cmdr when he got blown up by the Collectors?  For the shakedown and probably ultimate assignment to the 5th, apparently they thought a Captain was right for command of the SR1.

As far as the rest of it goes, it would be unusual if Shepard was named CO and say Kaidan was named XO.  But assuming Kaidan is a line officer of some sort, we don't know if the Alliance has a distinction between line officers that can and cannot command a ship.  This was why I threw in the bit about Kaidan being in intelligence.  In ME1, Pressley was the XO, I don't recall what rank he was.

The other point is that if Shepard is given command of the Normandy, and then Kaidan just shows up, he doesn't automatically become the captain of the ship.  We don't really know what kind of structure there would be.  There are a lot of people that are joining your team, but they don't exactly fit into the actual command structure.  I would imagine if it was an alliance crew they wouldn't want to refuse orders from Kaidan, but at the same time they would be oblidged to follow the orders of Shepard, since he is the captain.

At any rate, it might be odd on the ground if we looked at it from a purely Alliance standpoint.  Has Shepard ever actually been reinstated though?  If Shepard is a Spectre he is still somewhat outside of Alliance command though.

Modifié par capn233, 20 septembre 2011 - 04:57 .

[Han Shot First]

ReconTeam wrote...

Am I the only one under the impression that somebody in the Systems Alliance brass really doesn't like Shepard? You'd think he'd gotten a promotion for saving the whole galaxy. Being a Spectre it would have been more of a honorary thing anyway it seems.

It is because the title 'Commander' has become so associated with the character that he can't be promoted to say, Captain. Shepard hasn't been promoted for the same reason that Master Chief from Halo doesn't get a battlefield commission. *But* now that Bioware has decided to create a Staff Commander rank in addition to Lt. Commander, why not have Shepard be promoted to Staff Commander? As such he'd still be referred to as 'Commander' in game.

I was thinking some more about this last night and I am sure kaidan and ash are not in the n7 as it is explained in the codec n7 is special forces so I am guessing shepard will still outrank them as he is in the elite forces and ash and kaidan were just part of the Alliance regular military

Special Operations personnel don't outrank other military personnel just be virtue of their Special Operations background. The rank structure is the same. A Captain in a US Army infanty regiment for example, still outranks a Special Forces Lieutenant. The N7 designation should have no impact either way on who is the senior officer.

Shepard was able to command an Alliance military vessel in Mass Effect 1 because in addition to being a Spectre, he was a Lt. Commander in the Alliance military.

Odd, considering that he wasn't in the Alliance chain of command any longer.

I think Shepard's status is similar to that of many OSS or MI6 agents during the Second World War. While many were civilian intelligence agents, there were also military personnel who were assigned to the OSS or MI6. These people were both military personnel and members of a civilian intelligence agency simultaneously. While assigned to the OSS or MI6 they were outside the military chain of command, but did not cease to be part of their country's military.

Colonel Peter Julien Ortiz is a good example:

http://www.arlington...net/pjortiz.htm


Shepard's case is a bit unique in that he also has command of a warship, but that authority comes from his status as a Lt Commander in the Alliance and the fact that the Alliance brass named him the commanding officer of the Normandy, and assigned the ship to track down Saren.

Consider that of all the Spectres we meet, Shepard is the only one to command a warship in the performance of his duties. If Shepard had followed a civilian path to becoming a Spectre, he wouldn't have been commanding the Normandy. Perhaps the Normandy still gets tasked with tracking down Saren, but it would have had a different commanding officer, and Shepard's status aboard the ship would have been much like Nihlus at the start of ME1. He'd be a passenger and an advisor to the ship's Captain, but ultimately the Captain would decide where that ship went. If Shep had a civilian background he'd have no command authority over either the Normandy or it's crew.

The other point is that if Shepard is given command of the Normandy, and then Kaidan just shows up, he doesn't automatically become the captain of the ship.  We don't really know what kind of structure there would be.  There are a lot of people that are joining your team, but they don't exactly fit into the actual command structure.  I would imagine if it was an alliance crew they wouldn't want to refuse orders from Kaidan, but at the same time they would be oblidged to follow the orders of Shepard, since he is the captain.

That is a good point.

I guess we don't really know if Kaidan would be assigned to the Normandy in an official capacity, or if he just sort of gets scooped up in the heat of battle. For that matter do we even know if Shepard has official command of the Normandy, or does he just steal it during the escape from Earth?

Modifié par Han Shot First, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:36 .

[didymos1120]

Han Shot First wrote...

 *But* now that Bioware has decided to create a Staff Commander rank in addition to Lt. Commander, why not have Shepard be promoted to Staff Commander?

That rank has been around since ME1.

[Dariansarr]

I thought Major was below Commander

[Sia_Sinblade]

Has someone pointed out that Shepard is Space Jesus, so he automatically outranks anyone else?

Just sayin'.

[Bebbe777]

Hmm, Ash is being referred as Lieutenant Commander in all dialogue while Shep only Commander. If Shep was Lt Cmdr as well they should say Lt Cmdr to him, since Ash is getting that. So if he is called Commander, then maybe he is Staff Commander...but then again, Kaidan was reffered as Staff Commander and not just Commander

Hope I make sense haha

[DJBare]

I hope Shepard does not become a spectre again in ME3, I want the challenge to be able to operate without that power.

Modifié par DJBare, 17 février 2012 - 05:58 .

[DimmockDude]

Im pretty sure if Kaiden tried to give orders Shepard would blow him out of the airlock.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Just to clear up a few things.

1) It's MY/Shepards ship. I stole it from Cerberus. No one has explained how the Alliance got their claws, paws, tentecles into MY ship in the first place.

2) Ashly is a Lt. Commander, if and thats a big IF Shepard was promoted to full commander, He is only one rank higher. If not they are equal ranks. Not that Ashly would ever say no to me. But hey, thats a whole nother eh......... conversation. Yeah right uh.............conversation.

[zmichwr]

Its Shepard's ship, he can do whatever the hell  he wants

[LordAuducan]

 Shepard may be outranked but as ships go, 'commander shepard, CAPTAIN of the Normandy' the owner of the ship immediately outranks anyone on the vessel. Unless the alliance have stolen Shep's ship and placed it under Kaidan's jurisdiction, as the commanding oficer of an alliance owned ship. e.g HMS (her majesty's ship) will be under the control of a captain who may or may not be militarily speaking a captain.

[Takamori The Templar]

Saw this topic while playing ME1 to make a save that I saved Kaidan instead of Ashley.
Guess I'm really curious of how this will turn out.

[Cobra5]

I HOPE Kaidan outranks me,
and I HOPE he barks an order at me,
So I finally have an excuse to smack him.

[Nathan Redgrave]

It's not a question of rank, really. Shepard was the one who led the Normandy crew against Saren and he was the one who led the Normandy SR-2 crew against the Collectors; he's earned the respect of everyone who knows why he did what he did, and Kaiden would likely defer to him simply for that reason alone.

Also, Kaiden is the commanding officer of some biotic company, not of the Normandy. That role still belongs to Commander Shepard regardless of rank. Think of Kaiden as a visiting officer, who voluntarily defers to the judgment of the local one because, well, why the bleep not?

[Favourite store on the CitadeI]

Actually I was wondering about his rank too. He's a rank or so higher than Shepard yet he is still under Shepards "command" taking orders from Shepard, and on Shepards ship

[SmokePants]

Ashley and Kaiden will have most of the same dialogue. Their function in the story will be identical. So, if Ashley doesn't outrank Sheperd, then neither does Kaiden.

Total non-issue, I'm guessing.