30 réponses à ce sujet

[Killer Irish]

I know this could possibly be a "hot button" topic to chat about.  But when I read that Bioware was going in this direction I genuinly became concerned.  Taking the time to gather my thoughts,  I can break this "concern" down in two ways; How this sort of relationship was handled in Dragon Age 2 & How this comes across when handling pre-established characters.


Okay, Dragon Age 2, specifically Anders.  When you're first introduced to the character in DA1 he makes no hint at all to being gay (and there were plenty of chances to do so).  So when he makes his first pass at you in Dragon Age 2, it's a bit of a shock.  The biggest problem?  I couldn't be nice to the guy.  Anytime I tried to be there for him as a friend, he immidiatly took it as I was hitting on him.  The things he would say to me, he would have been more subtle if he jumped on top of a rainbow colored horse and ran me over with it.  It got to a point where I had to be purposely mean to him to get the point across that I wasn't intrested (and then of course I had to suffer negative relationship points). Which sucks because I really did like Anders from the original Dragon Age.  He was hilarious, sarcastic, a character I liked having in my party.  But in Dragon Age 2 it was basically all or nothing.  It was either I was nice so I must like him, or I was a jerk so thus I hate him.

Are video games able to match real life subtly?  Can I be nice, can I be a friend to Garrus without the dialog tree forcing me into an awkward situation?  I have friends that are gay and I've never been put into situations such as this.  But that's because they know me...they know who I am, what I believe, likes, dislikes, etc.  Whoever your Shepard is you would hope your in-game friends would know you just as well.  But seeing this is a new option, much like a light switch, it has been flicked on.  This leads me into my 2nd and final concern.


This is probably the hardest one to talk about...because in the end Bioware bodly stating, "you will be able to romance anybody," means just that, anybody on your team.  This isn't about character development, this isn't about advancing the story, this is simply about adding another "option."  It literally is a light switch to be flicked on.  You can't tell me after hundreds of battles over the span of two games, Garrus, or Miranda, or whoever you want to sleep with, wouldn't have brought up their feelings for you while starring death down together.  It has been nearly the end of the galaxy twice now.  The characters inside the Mass Effect universe would have found the time to have a heart-to-heart with you, no matter if you were a boy or a girl.  That's the thing I probably like the least because it almost cheapens the characters.  If these characters are to be real then they too have to have beliefs, likes and dislikes, preferences, they have to be different and you have to be understanding of those differences.  The Mass Effect series has put a lot of emphasis on story and believable characters.  It may be science fiction, but the characters are what have grounded this game and made it a thrill to play.  I want to be able to pick up Mass Effect 3 and immediately joke around with Garrus without having to worry if he thinks I'm hitting on him.  I want to go grab a drink with Kaidan after an exhasting battle and not wonder if he's going to slip me his bedroom key.  Its about consistency, it's about knowing these characters as well as they alreay know me (my Shepard).


Cookie cutting their sexual desires together makes it less realistic and makes it confusing on the player. 



I thank you for taking the time to read this and just know I mean no disrespect to anyone.   This comes from what I saw in Dragon Age 2 and the realization of the limits that a dialog tree can have. 

Modifié par Killer Irish, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:17 .

[AngelicMachinery]

I wish I had a dollar whenever someone worried about Gayrus.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

You do realize that Rivalry isn't "Negative relationship points" right?

[upsettingshorts]

[Rinji the Bearded]

Apparently this is only a problem when it comes to homosexuality. When it's heterosexual and you're being railroaded into a romance, it's okay.

Garrus and Tali both flipped their Shepard switches on, so to speak, so what's to stop Bioware from doing it again?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:01 .

[Nollan]

I don't really care about s/s romances  , I only wish that Team Dextro stay straight .

Modifié par Nollan, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:03 .

[Killer Irish]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I wish I had a dollar whenever someone worried about Gayrus.

*laugh*  Does it tend to be a theme here on the forums?  This is my first time over here in the Mass Effect 3 forums and I haven't read anything else yet.

For me its not so much as a worry, but an example.  He's the one character I really felt like we were "bro's"...I'd hate for this change to take away from that.  Having to watch what I say just in case it would take me down the wrong dialogue tree is more annoying than welcomed.  At least that's my train of thought when it comes to Garrus.

[ipgd]

Pointless repeated threads on BSN: A casue for butt devastation?

[lazuli]

So because you spelled "cause" as "casue," I couldn't help but think of a kazoo, which is similar to how "casue" would be pronounced.



That is all.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Killer Irish wrote...

*laugh*  Does it tend to be a theme here on the forums?  This is my first time over here in the Mass Effect 3 forums and I haven't read anything else yet.

For me its not so much as a worry, but an example.  He's the one character I really felt like we were "bro's"...I'd hate for this change to take away from that.  Having to watch what I say just in case it would take me down the wrong dialogue tree is more annoying than welcomed.  At least that's my train of thought when it comes to Garrus.

Don't hit on him.  Seems pretty simple, especially since it's already been stated that the s/s relationships will be reactive to how you interact with them in the game.

We're not so sure WHO is going to be s/s at this rate so might be reacting way, way too early.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:07 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Apparently this is only a problem when it comes to homosexuality. When it's heterosexual and you're being railroaded into a romance, it's okay.

Garrus and Tali both flipped their Shepard switches on, so to speak, so what's to stop Bioware from doing it again?

No it isn't.

So what's the problem?

[Killer Irish]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Killer Irish wrote...

*laugh*  Does it tend to be a theme here on the forums?  This is my first time over here in the Mass Effect 3 forums and I haven't read anything else yet.

For me its not so much as a worry, but an example.  He's the one character I really felt like we were "bro's"...I'd hate for this change to take away from that.  Having to watch what I say just in case it would take me down the wrong dialogue tree is more annoying than welcomed.  At least that's my train of thought when it comes to Garrus.

Don't hit on him.  Seems pretty simple, especially since it's already been stated that the s/s relationships will be reactive to how you interact with them in the game.

Ok, yes, I get that...but see that's why I brought up the Anders example (I don't know if this has been brought up in previous threads or not). 

In Dragon Age 2 he was VERY heavy when it came to hitting on your character.  Like I mentioned in my OP, I really did like Anders as a character in the original Dragon Age...so I was naturally nice to him in DA2.  Just being nice to him caused him to hit on you.  He felt bad about something, I would show concern, and he would respond way past what I intended.  So far when it has come to gay characters it hasn't been all to subtle.  So yeah, naturally I do have concerns.

[ademska]

Same sex relationships in ME3: A casue for concern?

no.

[ipgd]

Killer Irish wrote...

In Dragon Age 2 he was VERY heavy when it came to hitting on your character.

No, he wasn't. He has literally one unsolicited flirt line in the entire game that will only appear if you take the diplomatic option at the end of his first conversation following Tranquility in Act I. He calls Hawke scruffy and then immediately apologizes, informs him that he will stop if he is making Hawke uncomfortable, and if you tell him he is, he stops. You get a minor amount of rivalry points if you get this dialogue option, but you can avoid it entirely if you a) take the broken heart option at the very beginning of the same conversation, cutting off all romance options with no friendship/rivalry change at all, or taking the sarcastic/aggressive options at the end of the conversation, avoiding the flirt dialogue entirely. After this point, it is entirely up to Hawke to make romantic advances. You can very easily go the entire game and never have any sort of suggestive exchange with Anders.

You are imagining it to be worse than it was. Thank you, Gay Panic.

Modifié par ipgd, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:20 .

[shepskisaac]

Killer Irish wrote...
You can't tell me after hundreds of battles over the span of two games, Garrus, or Miranda, or whoever you want to sleep with, wouldn't have brought up their feelings for you while starring death down together.

Garrus never brought up and wouldn't bring up any feelings if it wasn't for FemShep who suggested it. And Tali never brought up anything in ME1, despite countless battles and whatnot.

Killer Irish wrote...
It has been nearly the end of the galaxy twice now.  The characters inside the Mass Effect universe would have found the time to have a heart-to-heart with you, no matter if you were a boy or a girl.  That's the thing I probably like the least because it almost cheapens the characters.  If these characters are to be real then they too have to have beliefs, likes and dislikes, preferences, they have to be different and you have to be understanding of those differences.  The Mass Effect series has put a lot of emphasis on story and believable characters.  It may be science fiction, but the characters are what have grounded this game and made it a thrill to play.

Cheapens what? Maybe they have a reason not to reveal anything to Shepard. Kaidan for example has one already written there in ME1. He thinks Shep is straight. It's already part of the story, nothing simplier. He admits to FemShep that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara) and he also makes it clear he wouldn't bother flirting/pursuing FemShep in the first place had he knew. He assumes the same thing about ManShep. But with the obvious gender difference, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since a straight woman likes men, so he doesn't hold back from flirting with her. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, so no flirting/hitting on. It'll be Shepard that will have to make the first move and let Kaidan know he ain't straight.

Killer Irish wrote...
I want to be able to pick up Mass Effect 3 and immediately joke around with Garrus without having to worry if he thinks I'm hitting on him.  I want to go grab a drink with Kaidan after an exhasting battle and not wonder if he's going to slip me his bedroom key.

So you're basically scared of guys hitting on you. Dude, man it up. To be bothered by such a thing is silly. Just tell 'no', move on. Seriously, if that's your reaction to a VIDEO GAME character, how do you deal with it in actual real life when a girl you don't like or a guy hits on you? The world doesn't revolve around straight men. Other people must deal with you hitting on them even if they don't like you, you'll have to do the same.

Killer Irish wrote...
Its about consistency, it's about knowing these characters as well as they alreay know me (my Shepard).

You can't know the characters exactly the way you want and no other. They don't reveal everything to you at once. If you think they have to, then Darth Vader was an inconsistent character.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[highcastle]

Killer Irish wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Killer Irish wrote...

*laugh*  Does it tend to be a theme here on the forums?  This is my first time over here in the Mass Effect 3 forums and I haven't read anything else yet.

For me its not so much as a worry, but an example.  He's the one character I really felt like we were "bro's"...I'd hate for this change to take away from that.  Having to watch what I say just in case it would take me down the wrong dialogue tree is more annoying than welcomed.  At least that's my train of thought when it comes to Garrus.

Don't hit on him.  Seems pretty simple, especially since it's already been stated that the s/s relationships will be reactive to how you interact with them in the game.

Ok, yes, I get that...but see that's why I brought up the Anders example (I don't know if this has been brought up in previous threads or not). 

In Dragon Age 2 he was VERY heavy when it came to hitting on your character.  Like I mentioned in my OP, I really did like Anders as a character in the original Dragon Age...so I was naturally nice to him in DA2.  Just being nice to him caused him to hit on you.  He felt bad about something, I would show concern, and he would respond way past what I intended.  So far when it has come to gay characters it hasn't been all to subtle.  So yeah, naturally I do have concerns.

Sorry, but how is Anders very heavy when hitting on you? He responds flirtatiously to one of the three dialogue options. And even then, his words are (from memory): "It seems you have a bit of a soft heart yourself. Sorry, I shouldn't presume. Do you object?" 

That is the tamest pickup line I've ever heard. Seriously. And he immediately apologizes for it and gives the player an out. Tell me how that's heavy-handed, please.

[AngelicMachinery]

Killer Irish wrote...

Ok, yes, I get that...but see that's why I brought up the Anders example (I don't know if this has been brought up in previous threads or not). 

In Dragon Age 2 he was VERY heavy when it came to hitting on your character.  Like I mentioned in my OP, I really did like Anders as a character in the original Dragon Age...so I was naturally nice to him in DA2.  Just being nice to him caused him to hit on you.  He felt bad about something, I would show concern, and he would respond way past what I intended.  So far when it has come to gay characters it hasn't been all to subtle.  So yeah, naturally I do have concerns.

I have to say I find ths concern to be a bit laughable.  While I understand that your typical straight male doesn't want too engage in homosexual acts I don't see why a single line makes you so ab****ely uncomftorable.  Take it as a compliment,  say your not interested,  and move a long.  If you think that destroys characters for you, try playing a lesbian Femmeshep in ME2 for some reason she goes into heat around every romancable male and point in fact it becomes difficult to talk to male squad mates because the hand of god decided to make Femme shep more sultury.

You getting hit on by a male NPC might squick you,  but,  at least you retain control over your characters actions.  

[Rinji the Bearded]

Killer Irish wrote...

Ok, yes, I get that...but see that's why I brought up the Anders example (I don't know if this has been brought up in previous threads or not). 

In Dragon Age 2 he was VERY heavy when it came to hitting on your character.  Like I mentioned in my OP, I really did like Anders as a character in the original Dragon Age...so I was naturally nice to him in DA2.  Just being nice to him caused him to hit on you.  He felt bad about something, I would show concern, and he would respond way past what I intended.  So far when it has come to gay characters it hasn't been all to subtle.  So yeah, naturally I do have concerns.

Anders really never came on that strongly, and you could turn him down.  Hawke also never previously knew Anders, so for Hawke to assume that Anders would be like how he was in DA:A would be incorrect.  On the other hand, Shepard has always know Kaidan, Garrus, and etc, so I'm sure these hints at hitting on them would not be approached in a "railroading" or subtle manner.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:22 .

[Finis Valorum]

If this is about the fact that being ninjamanced isn't always nice I'd agree but that goes for straight relationships as well imho, why would it suddenly be a bigger concern for same sex ones?

And no having the option to pursue same sex relationships in a video game isn't a cause for concern, quite the opposite actually. The only way your concerns might make some sense if if having a s/s relationship wasn't an option but was in fact a plot requirement, but again this would go for a forced straight relationship as well if you ask me.
It has been repeatedly stated that you have to initiate any s/s relationships so its likely they won't hit on you if you don't hit on them first so if you don't want a s/s relationship just avoid flirting with someone of the same sex, problem solved.

[Xewaka]

Why should it be a cause for concern? Same sex relationships are already present in the two former games. In dummied out content, yes, but still present.

Modifié par Xewaka, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:23 .

[slimgrin]

I don't like how they are implementing S/S either, but it's a done deal. That's what they are doing, and it won't keep me from buying the game. I suppose it's better they be inclusive in this regard than not.

These threads have become pointless.