78 réponses à ce sujet

[telephasic]

Although I haven't played the entire game yet (still have a good deal of Act 3 - ick), I have to say the quest line involving Hawke's mother just seemed a total failure, assuming it was supposed to cause some emotional resonance for the player.  Going down the reasons.

1.  It was very clear from the beginning, due to already knowing about the killer, that you were going to find something nasty at the end.

2.  The map you finally find her on had random treasures placed throughout.  Although I guess it's realistic that vendor trash could be anywhere, it sort of breaks immersion if the game lets your character wander into a side hallway and open up a crate for a few silver. 

3.  When you finally get the reveal, the result is amazingly, over-the-top gruesome.  I can think of no reason the writers would want to do this but to create silly melodrama.  Just the death of your mother would have been a blow enough for Hawke.

4.  I dunno if it's Hawke's voice acting, or just the gaps the voiceover by nature has, but your responses just don't sound realistic for the situation.  Mind you, I picked the diplomatic options,  but it was almost as if you were trying to calm down your mother, rather than desperately stop from breaking up in front of her.

5.  It's especially odd, because Gamlen shows real sadness at his sister's death, which actually *did* get me choked up and empathizing with him more, but your responses back to him are still rather without effect, considering this was probably the worst day in your life. 

Anyway, thoughts? 

Modifié par telephasic, 05 juillet 2011 - 01:51 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I didn't find it a failure. Quite the opposite. It was one of the more harrowing moments in the game for me, including in subsequent playthroughs.

To address your individual points:

1 - Yes. Something wicked this way comes. But that didn't necessarily make it less emotional. Having played the demo, I already knew a sibling was going to be killed in the prologue, but it still bothered me when I started the actual game.

2 - Random treasure is...random. You didn't have to loot the crates and chests. You could have focused solely on getting from point A to point B. The thing about loot is that it's there if you want it or need it. 

3 - The gruesomeness was to illustrate the horrors of blood magic. Had Leandra's death seemed to be of natural causes, there would be no reason to associate the death with magic, or as caused by a mage. I think it was done this way to deliver more drama (not melodrama per se) - and to further give the player pause when considering how to act in other mage or templar-specific quests.

4 - I played a female Hawke. I thought her voice served quite well in both diplomatic and sarcastic options.

5 - There has been a lot of discussion here about Hawke's perceived lack of emotion. I think this was another area left ambiguous so that the player could inject his/her own emotional reaction into the story. Some people would be stoic, some would break down. It may not have been the best portrayal of Hawke, but I think it was the most reasonable in order to consider the grand audience.

Just my opinion, mind you.

[TEWR]

1) Sure I knew what was going to happen, but that wasn't the problem to me. I don't have a problem with Hawke being unable to save his mom. What I do have a problem with is that Hawke or Aveline didn't even attempt to make a thorough investigation when they had plenty of evidence.

2) what whykikyouwhy said. Besides, maybe Hawke was looking for more clues on what was happening.

3) again what WKYW said. It's there to show how dangerous blood magic can be when abused (though they never showed enough of both sides. Both the insane and sane) The only problem I had with it was how Leandra kept wobbling throughout the battle. They could've just had Quentin turn her chair around and after the battle she stumbles toward you. I have no problem with Quentin being insane. He's the only mage who I don't mind being insane. But the others like Grace, Decimus, and Orsino really just make me facepalm.

4) I felt like Male Hawke delivered his charming lines perfectly.

5) I think Hawke was trying to bottle it up. Like he didn't want his emotions to pour out. That's how I play it anyway, and when Meredith brings up the topic of Leandra's death Hawke's rage lets loose, as it was the one thing that made him not want to side with her. That she would dig up Leandra just to try and win an argument that she was obviously failing really pissed off Hawke.

But Hawke always maintains a sarcastic role unless he's dealing with Meredith. Then he's just a ****** to her because she deserves it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:35 .

[telephasic]

I'm not sure that it was needed to include Hawke's mother's death by a mage just to give the player more pause about which side to choose. IIRC, in chapters 1 and 2, you get almost NO quests showing the Templars as bad. Okay, maybe two which are Anders related, and I suppose there is the one with the rogue Templar in Offered and Lost, although he is portrayed as more a bad apple than anything. In contrast, virtually all quests involving mages have the mages ultimately being insane, resorting to blood magic, or both. If anything, by the time your Mother is captured, you've already been presented with evidence overwhelmingly against siding with the mages.

Regardless, as to the dialogue, I suppose it's a matter of taste. Personally, even though my Hawke was a coolheaded warrior, I wanted him to well up like a little girl. Or, at least have the option. But then again, this doesn't fit into the diplomatic/sarcastic/dick dialogue choices they force us into. I honestly would have preferred a cutscene with no choices though - I think it would have resulted in a more natural flow.

[Quething]

telephasic wrote...

Regardless, as to the dialogue, I suppose it's a matter of taste. Personally, even though my Hawke was a coolheaded warrior, I wanted him to well up like a little girl. Or, at least have the option. But then again, this doesn't fit into the diplomatic/sarcastic/dick dialogue choices they force us into. I honestly would have preferred a cutscene with no choices though - I think it would have resulted in a more natural flow.

This was the biggest failing, for me. My second playthrough I actually hung out in Darktown for a second using the console to switch my dominant personality from sacrastic to jackhole, because there's just so much unprompted dialog throughout the quest and the sarcastic lines just do not work for me, at all, in a scenario that's supposed to be that emotionally fraught.

Modifié par Quething, 05 juillet 2011 - 02:32 .

[por favor]

I don't know how I'm expected to feel any kind of emotion over my momHawke dying if I barely even spoke to her throughout the game or spent any time with her whatsoever.

Gotta love the new character interaction set-up.

Aside from that, both my female Hawke and male Hawke sounded completely emotionless. This NPC in Origins has FAR more emotion in her voice over her brother disappearing. And she's just an NPC!

1:40
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par por favor, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:55 .

[megski]

I have so many mixed feelings about DA2, the bigger issue here for me was I had no control over this, it really bothered me that there wasn't anything you could do to stop this from happening. But I guess that's a discussion for a later time.

One of the redeeming things for me through out this was Anders though. I was romancing him as lady hawke, and when I bitterly smart-mouthed him, (can't remember exactly what she said) he kept his mouth shut and hung around. This is probably the only thing that really redeems Anders for me as a character.

On my second game, I was single. Aveline was the only one that seemed to care. That said a lot to me about the other characters. Maybe the creators of the game didn't want to bog you down with side quests after it.

I felt like after this quest though, there was no denying a problem anymore. You first see blood magic out of desperation, but this was clearly out of...idk craziness. So for me this was a point in either looking passed this and not blaming the other mages, being noble or letting my character get angry. I have no idea what the right thing was to do, lots of confusion for me. *sorry for the tangent*.

[TJPags]

por favor wrote...

I don't know how I'm expected to feel any kind of emotion over my momHawke dying if I barely even spoke to her throughout the game or spent any time with her whatsoever.

That's pretty much all that needs to be said right there.

[Zcorck]

Aside from what's already been said, I found it quite cliché that the 'hero' loses his family.
And I pretty much count GW/Circle in that category as well due to you barely seeing them for 5 min in a span for too many years.
At the rate you were losing your family, I was like  'cos I was surprised that they actually went there just to make it more dramatic never mind predictable.

por favor wrote...

I don't know how I'm expected to feel any kind of emotion over my momHawke dying if I barely even spoke to her throughout the game or spent any time with her whatsoever.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Of Sandal, Bodahn & Dog. I wonder which one knew her the best.

Modifié par Zcorck, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:37 .

[TEWR]

Zcorck wrote...

Aside from what's already been said, I found it quite cliché that the 'hero' loses his family.
And I pretty much count GW/Circle in that category as well due to you barely seeing them for 5 min in a span for too many years.

I don't have a problem with the hero losing his family, especially if someone's made a GW. That life takes them to various places. But you should always be able to talk to your sister/brother if they head to the Gallows. The lack of possible interaction there was just..... ugh....


However, I feel that the game would've been much more emotional with the "hero losing family" idea had both siblings survived. Carver becomes a GW and Bethany is taken to the Circle. Your family is ripped away from you due to fate.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't have a problem with the hero losing his family, especially if someone's made a GW. That life takes them to various places. But you should always be able to talk to your sister/brother if they head to the Gallows. The lack of possible interaction there was just..... ugh....

This. It was one of those things that made me very disapointed.

However, I feel that the game would've been much more emotional with the "hero losing family" idea had both siblings survived. Carver becomes a GW and Bethany is taken to the Circle. Your family is ripped away from you due to fate.

Also this, except Carver as a templar. The Last Straw would have been that much interesting if you had your siblings on both sides of the conflict. Missed opportunities like this make me rage.

Modifié par DrunkDeadman, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .

[Zcorck]

I guess I would've been ok with them going away IF you could actually get to talk to them.
6 years in one place unable to talk to a sibling in the same place =  .

It was quite the surprise considering the way BW handled characters in the past.

[megski]

Zcorck wrote...

I guess I would've been ok with them going away IF you could actually get to talk to them.
6 years in one place unable to talk to a sibling in the same place =  .

It was quite the surprise considering the way BW handled characters in the past.

I ran around in the gallows looking for them, like a dummy haha.  

[TEWR]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't have a problem with the hero losing his family, especially if someone's made a GW. That life takes them to various places. But you should always be able to talk to your sister/brother if they head to the Gallows. The lack of possible interaction there was just..... ugh....

This. It was one of those things that made me very disapointed.

However, I feel that the game would've been much more emotional with the "hero losing family" idea had both siblings survived. Carver becomes a GW and Bethany is taken to the Circle. Your family is ripped away from you due to fate.

Also this, except Carver as a templar. The Last Straw would have been that much interesting if you had your siblings on both sides of the conflict. Missed opportunities like this make me rage.

The reason why I prefer Carver as a Grey Warden is because he stops being a colossal ****** . Making him a Templar subjects him to a life of lyrium-addicted hell, though you're right that it would've been interesting to see how it played out.

[Foolsfolly]

3. When you finally get the reveal, the result is amazingly, over-the-top gruesome. I can think of no reason the writers would want to do this but to create silly melodrama. Just the death of your mother would have been a blow enough for Hawke.

It's a mix of wanting to make an emotional beat for the player and wanting to continue to drive the dull nail of "MAGES ARE EVIL" into our skulls.

It couldn't be a serial killer (nor a detective storyline) it had to be an insane mage for no other reason than being insane.

5. It's especially odd, because Gamlen shows real sadness at his sister's death, which actually *did* get me choked up and empathizing with him more, but your responses back to him are still rather without effect, considering this was probably the worst day in your life.

Male Hawke has a cringe worthy delivery of "My mom died" to Aveline after the fact too. It's said with all the deep reservoirs of emotion that one must summon forth to announce they ate an alright burrito today.

3 - The gruesomeness was to illustrate the horrors of blood magic. Had Leandra's death seemed to be of natural causes, there would be no reason to associate the death with magic, or as caused by a mage. I think it was done this way to deliver more drama (not melodrama per se) - and to further give the player pause when considering how to act in other mage or templar-specific quests.

I get what you're saying but it was totally melodrama, especially since you can have last words with her and then angst over how it was your fault.

....which it really isn't any way you cut it.

I don't know how I'm expected to feel any kind of emotion over my momHawke dying if I barely even spoke to her throughout the game or spent any time with her whatsoever.

That's the problem with the Hawke Family. They're all doomed from the start and from the first death to the last they're all emotionless because you barely know the characters.

Had Merrill, Aveline, Varric, Isabela, or Fenris died instead of any of those characters I would have been emotional. Those characters have far more depth, better characterization, and you care more for them than any of the Hawke clan.

I guess a lesson to learn here is this:

For a character's death to matter that character needs to be a companion. That companion needs to be capable (who's going to mourn a companion who talks about how unsure they are or complains that they're just not strong enough constantly? Sure you could make it a pity death where the player feels sad but you're just as likely to have the player cheer when that character finally dies.)

That capable companion who's strong enough to have made it on their way without the PC is then killed off in a non-arbitrary way. That's another problem the Hawkes have. The Ogre just happens to kill which ever sibling that Hawke is the most alike in class...for no reason. The sibling just happens to be the only person of a 20+ group going down the Deep Roads to suffer from darkspawn blood. The mother character just happens to be a victim of a serial killer.

Not ever companion death must be from PC betrayal or heroic sacrifice, but heroic sacrifice works because it's emotional and meaningful. None of the Hawkes have meaningful in-character deaths. Unless you count the Ogre thing as "defending mother" in which case it needed to be handled better because it just looks like the Ogre targeted the sibling and one-punched the sibling out.

Once the character dies the reaction to that death is also key to hitting emotional responses. Look at the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode 'The Body.' In that Joyce dies in the beginning and the whole episode deals with the characters reacting to the death, Anya's reaction being the most tearjerking one of the bunch.

The problem with the deaths of the Hawke family is that each one of them get maybe one reference after the fact and then it's forgotten. Their deaths mean so little in the long run and Hawke seems so completely emotionless to them.

The manner in which they die is also just PLOT HAMMER falls on their head instead of happening in an emotional or suspenseful manner. And the characters are forgotten as quickly as possible.

Although, Mom Hawke got more references than any other Hawke death. She's used as a weapon by Meredith to get you on her side.

[TJPags]

I don't mind the supposedly cliche "hero loses his family" thing, if its done well.

BW did it in Origins - see the HN Origin for example. The HUGE difference, as pointed out so many times, is that you actually interacted with those people. Even though the HN Origin took place during one day, and DA2 over 7 years, I'd say there was more interaction in the Origin than in DA2. Honestly, once you get to Kirkwall, Mom has, what, 4 lines? Over 4-5 years?

Same with the sibling. My one complete was as a rogue, so Carver got Ogre'd. Maybe some of it was having known it was happening, but it didn't effect me at all. Yes, I did like having Bethany in the party, but once she went to the Circle, there was no contact anymore - no, the one letter she sends didn't cut it for me. She was gone. For two thirds of the game. Hell, by the time she reappeared as a hostage, I literally took a minute to figure out who the hell the hostage was. "Oh, That's Bethany!!!".

Honestly, if I'm supposed to feel something for "relatives" in games, you have to let me interact with them. If you don't, then why am I supposed to care?

[Foolsfolly]

BW did it in Origins - see the HN Origin for example. The HUGE difference, as pointed out so many times, is that you actually interacted with those people. Even though the HN Origin took place during one day, and DA2 over 7 years, I'd say there was more interaction in the Origin than in DA2. Honestly, once you get to Kirkwall, Mom has, what, 4 lines? Over 4-5 years?

The Couslands also go down fighting to treachery. The mom sacrifices herself to allow the PC to escape and stay with her husband.

That's more of an emotional gut punch because these are noble good people going down in a bad way. I felt something for the Couslands that I didn't for the Hawkes.

Plus it was just cool to tool around the castle with your mom flinging arrows. It showed that she was a capable person not someone who stands back, does nothing, and largely blames the character for a sibling's death...until she doesn't.

The closest I came for caring for Mom Hawke was when she was talking about dating. I felt "FINALLY this character's going to get out of her shell and stop being that old gargoyle blaming me for Bethany's death."

Little did I know it was just a last minute jab at pathos. It worked, it caused me to not cheer when Mom Hawke died. Which I probably would have done if she died some time in Act 1.

[Zcorck]

Point taken. Origins had a cliché story, but it had a pretty decent execution.
But doing it again seems a tad repetitive 'cos it helps define your character(at least in Origins), and undoubtedly compared to HN Origin.
Seems rather easy to see where it's going when the family is slowly getting picked off one by one.
After Deep Roads and the lack of convos, I was just waiting for the mother to get picked off.

Modifié par Zcorck, 05 juillet 2011 - 04:31 .

[Foolsfolly]

Frankly, Hawke's mom had a huge target on her the moment we started the demo.

I saw her standing there not a part of the team, not contributing to the fight and thought, "Yep, you're darkspawn food."

She surprised me by hanging around as long as she did but she was designed to die. And because of that a lot of people picked up on that. Although, I doubt any player knew exactly how she would die. Or that the FrankenMom would have dying words of encouragement for Hawke.

And I think that had a part to play. My siblings and I totally called the mom dying, like the bubbly blond in a slasher flick we took joy in announcing that she was a dead woman.

That's a problem.

Red Dead Redemption had another character that my siblings and I called out as being a dead woman walking: Bonnie MacFarlane. She was nice, funny, sarcastic, and frankly wonderfully written and acted. We assumed she would die to give us a Kick the Puppy kind of moment. It would make us cry.

In fact, we lamented her fate as we played the first act of the game. We kept saying, "Man, I don't want her to die."

And then the mission came where her father comes up to the Marshall and says Bonnie's been kidnapped by a local gang the player had run-ins with recently. And we were panicking and angry and talking about how we were going to have vengeance on her killers. We were upset and nervous as we rode out with the Marshall and his men to save Bonnie.

And we arrive and she's got a noose around her neck and we're freaking out. "Shoot the rope," my sister screamed in my ear. And I did...and I killed every son of a **** around. And Bonnie was fine.

And we were thankful. We were wrong in assuming she'd die. And we were so relieved to be wrong.

Bonnie MacFarlane seemed set up to die. And we didn't want that fate to happen at all. Mom Hawke seemed set up to die...and I didn't care.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:14 .

[Zcorck]

Heh, too true mate. 

[TEWR]

You know what's odd? I cared more for Gamlen than I did for Leandra. I cared more for Charade than I did for Leandra!


The scene with Leandra in ATR is heartwrenching, but I just didn't get to know her. I should've been bawling. Instead all I said was "Yeah that's kinda sad."

That is not the reaction I should have to the protagonist's mother dying

[Lord_Valandil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You know what's odd? I cared more for Gamlen than I did for Leandra. I cared more for Charade than I did for Leandra!


The scene with Leandra in ATR is heartwrenching, but I just didn't get to know her. I should've been bawling. Instead all I said was "Yeah that's kinda sad."

That is not the reaction I should have to the protagonist's mother dying

Indeed.
I really didn't care...and I don't think that I'm a cold-hearted monster.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Frankly, Hawke's mom had a huge target on her the moment we started the demo.

I saw her standing there not apart of the team, not contributing to the fight and thought, "Yep, you're darkspawn food."

She surprised me by hanging around as long as she did but she was designed to die. And because of that a lot of people picked up on that. Although, I doubt any player knew exactly how she would die. Or that the FrankenMom would have dying words of encouragement for Hawke.

And I think that had a part to play. My siblings and I totally called the mom dying, like the bubbly blond in a slasher flick we took joy in announcing that she was a dead woman.

That's a problem.

Red Dead Redemption had another character that my siblings and I called out as being a dead woman walking: Bonnie MacFarlane. She was nice, funny, sarcastic, and frankly wonderfully written and acted. We assumed she would die to give us a Kick the Puppy kind of moment. It would make us cry.

In fact, we lamented her fate as we played the first act of the game. We kept saying, "Man, I don't want her to die."

And then the mission came where her father comes up to the Marshall and says Bonnie's been kidnapped by a local gang the player had run-ins with recently. And we were panicking and angry and talking about how we were going to have vengeance on her killers. We were upset and nervous as we rode out with the Marshall and his men to save Bonnie.

And we arrive and she's got a noose around her neck and we're freaking out. "Shoot the rope," my sister screamed in my ear. And I did...and I killed every son of a **** around. And Bonnie was fine.

And we were thankful. We were wrong in assuming she'd die. And we were so relieved to be wrong.

Bonnie MacFarlane seemed set up to die. And we didn't want that fate to happen at all. Mom Hawke seemed set up to die...and I didn't care.

Look up the definition of "Quoted for Truth" in the dictionary, and you'll find what I've done here. I could not agree with this more.

[Persephone]

The quest itself worked just fine for me. It was one of those which actually had drive and it still makes me misty eyed. Would I have liked more inter-action with Momma Hawke beforehand? Yes. But I loved the quest line itself. Everyone involved shone, esp. the LI and Aveline. And seeing Gamlen tear up over his sister, esp. with my Hawke saying how she failed Carver....very well done indeed.

And while the Cousland origin was well done, its lack of influence over my Warden left me kinda disappointed. Even Alistair who keeps going on & on about Duncan conveniently forgets about it. And Wynne's attempt to "console" my Warden only made me hate her (Wynne) more,while Aveline managed to say just the right thing. And damn, the confrontation with Gascard afterwards.....amazing VO acting from Hawke there.

[Foolsfolly]

The quest itself worked just fine for me. It was one of those which actually had drive and it still makes me misty eyed.

I agree. It's a well done quest as far as drive, purpose, and the construction of the thing is concerned. It's also one of the few (if not only) quests in the game that reacts to something the player did previously. In this case sparing the blood mage or not.

Well done.

As far as emotion goes the only time the quest did anything for me was, oddly, on a replay. My third Hawke was a Lady Hawke and her performance leading up to the place tugged on my heart hard. Call me a softy but hearing her so close to breaking down was effective. Male Hawke never had such a moment, acting wise.

Everyone involved shone, esp. the LI and Aveline.

I did enjoy the story Aveline told...the only time I heard it (I hear that bug's fixed now). And the LI's...I really disliked Fenris's moment. That was a perfect moment for him to step up as a character and be in that relationship with Hawke. That was a perfect moment for a Shining Moment of Awesome from all the LIs....but Fenris fell short. Isabela was short but her's was slightly more in-character than Fenris's.

Merrill was alright. Oddly better if you blamed mages. She isn't a cute little girl in that scene, she recognizes Hawke's in pain and rationalizing. It gets a bit tense but it's pretty fine dialogue and acting all around.

Never romanced Anders.

So over all, I'd say the LI's scene varied from LI to LI. It should have been better for all of them.