78 réponses à ce sujet

[DahliaLynn]

Will add approximately two cents In my opinion, the quest itself was very well done, but can only evoke actual emotion from the player after playing several playthroughs, since at this point you are already familiar with Hawke's mother. One playthrough wasn't enough for me to care.

I attribute this to lack of sufficient interaction with her, the family, possibly her voice acting/morph combo, and lack of quality emotion evoking music to assist the dramatic cutscenes. .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

telephasic wrote...

1.  It was very clear from the beginning, due to already knowing about the killer, that you were going to find something nasty at the end.

It was clear we *might*. I held out hope there would be more than one way the quest could end. I am given to understand that originally there was, but it was cut purely to provide the melodrama you mentioned. And so Hawke could lose someone who was meant to be close to the insane mages.

2.  The map you finally find her on had random treasures placed throughout.  Although I guess it's realistic that vendor trash could be anywhere, it sort of breaks immersion if the game lets your character wander into a side hallway and open up a crate for a few silver.

To be fair, you don't have to open anything. It's not Bioware's fault if your Hawke gets distracted by shiny objects.

Though to the actual players who get distracted, I can see how that would break tension.

3.  When you finally get the reveal, the result is amazingly, over-the-top gruesome.  I can think of no reason the writers would want to do this but to create silly melodrama.  Just the death of your mother would have been a blow enough for Hawke.

I didn't think it was over-the-top. TBH there were enough hints throughout the lair that warned you'd find Frankenstein's Bride at the end, so Hawke's look of shock was more than a little comical when mum finally turned around.

But I would have preferred a less graphic end. A better focus on story rather than a new character model (to say nothing of Orsino and Meredith).

4.  I dunno if it's Hawke's voice acting, or just the gaps the voiceover by nature has, but your responses just don't sound realistic for the situation.  Mind you, I picked the diplomatic options,  but it was almost as if you were trying to calm down your mother, rather than desperately stop from breaking up in front of her.

Real Heroes Don't Cry. That's why there's no QQ button on the dialogue wheel.

5.  It's especially odd, because Gamlen shows real sadness at his sister's death, which actually *did* get me choked up and empathizing with him more, but your responses back to him are still rather without effect, considering this was probably the worst day in your life.

Yep, Gamlen's VO was good. I felt sorry for his loss. Hawke didn't make me feel like she/I had lost anything in that scene, although the aftermath with Friend/LI visiting helped (and was unexpected--I liked that comfort scene very much. RP FTW).

[Foolsfolly]

It was clear we *might*. I held out hope there would be more than one way the quest could end. I am given to understand that originally there was, but it was cut purely to provide the melodrama you mentioned. And so Hawke could lose someone who was meant to be close to the insane mages.

It's honestly better that the mom dies. If there's a way to save her then the entire quest loses what punch it has. There's no after-the-fact talk with Gamlen, no Aveline speech, and no LI speech.

They just needed to set up the emotions correctly and that mission would have had everyone in tears.

[Lilunebrium]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
3 - The gruesomeness was to illustrate the horrors of blood magic. Had Leandra's death seemed to be of natural causes, there would be no reason to associate the death with magic, or as caused by a mage. I think it was done this way to deliver more drama (not melodrama per se) - and to further give the player pause when considering how to act in other mage or templar-specific quests.

And that's the only thing in which All That Remains failed, in my personal experience. If it actually was meant to give mage-empathisers a different view, that is.

Quentin was driven mad by grief over the loss of his wife. That's a pretty poor reason to start being skeptical about every other mage in Kirkwall, even if Quentin was the reason behind your mother's death. Could be it's just easy for me to say because it's not my mother, but it seems pretty much the same as condemning all people in, say, Washington D.C. because one citizen committed murder.

It's the same as with the whole choosing-templar-or-mage-thing at the end. One fugitive apostate blows up the Chantry, so we should exterminate every single mage who has actually been locked up in the Gallows and had absolutely nothing to do with it? It's the reason why I find myself uncapable of ever choosing side with the Templars.

telephasic wrote...
4.  I dunno if it's Hawke's voice acting, or just the gaps the voiceover by nature has, but your responses just don't sound realistic for the situation.  Mind you, I picked the diplomatic options,  but it was almost as if you were trying to calm down your mother, rather than desperately stop from breaking up in front of her. 
 

Now that, that is entirely up to personal choices made, and perhaps even what gender you picked at the beginning. I play Hawkettes, and the choices I made during the conversation were perfectly voiced. It set the right emotion, the right atmosphere, and admittedly made me choke up right then and there.

Modifié par Lilunebrium, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:02 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Lilunebrium wrote...
And that's the only thing in which All That Remains failed, in my personal experience. If it actually was meant to give mage-empathisers a different view, that is.

Quentin was driven mad by grief over the loss of his wife. That's a pretty poor reason to start being skeptical about every other mage in Kirkwall, even if Quentin was the reason behind your mother's death. Could be it's just easy for me to say because it's not my mother, but it seems pretty much the same as condemning all people in, say, Washington D.C. because one citizen committed murder.

It's the same as with the whole choosing-templar-or-mage-thing at the end. One fugitive apostate blows up the Chantry, so we should exterminate every single mage who has actually been locked up in the Gallows and had absolutely nothing to do with it? It's the reason why I find myself uncapable of ever choosing side with the Templars.

I agree that Quentin shouldn't be the one mage that taints all others and thus allows for their condemnation. But I do think he was intended to be yet one more example of a "mage gone wrong/crazy." The execution may have been flawed, or may have needed something more (or for some players, something less). I didn't get a good sense of his personal loss though - while the story element was presented, I found that the focus was on his deeds, not so much the reason behind them.

By the time the quest rolls around though, we already have had a few examples of mages working outside of the Circle - Grace, Idunna. We already know that magic can be something threatening and can lead to possession - Wilmod, Thrask's daughter. These are all rare cases in the grand scheme of day-to-day life in Kirkwall, yes, but I think their sum total is supposed to create a certain wariness and unease with all things magic, particularly blood magic. Hawke travels with companions (and sometimes family) who are willing to condemn mages, or are at least vocal about their own discomfort with magic.

Personally, I don't believe that a person who commits a crime should be representative of an entire people and therefore be worthy of all-out revulsion. But I think for the game, Quentin was one more drop in the bucket that was intended to pool together all of the bad aspects of magic. There are just as many examples on the Templar side. Ultimately, maybe neither list of the bad was enough to make a player feel one way or the other, or to be immersed in the schism to come in Act 3. Some people will play their Hawkes as reactionary (all mages/templars are bad), whereas some will play Hawke as cautious (some mages/templars are bad, and I need to do x,y or z about it).

Not to say that you weren't immersed, Lilunebrium.  No personal attack was intended here, so I hope my rambling did not come across that way.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Foolsfolly wrote...

It was clear we *might*. I held out hope there would be more than one way the quest could end. I am given to understand that originally there was, but it was cut purely to provide the melodrama you mentioned. And so Hawke could lose someone who was meant to be close to the insane mages.

It's honestly better that the mom dies. If there's a way to save her then the entire quest loses what punch it has. There's no after-the-fact talk with Gamlen, no Aveline speech, and no LI speech.

They just needed to set up the emotions correctly and that mission would have had everyone in tears.

Getting everyone to cry isn't possible. Some people found it sad.

I'm not sure that she had to die any more than the Warden has to be captured by Ser Cauthrien when rescuing Anora. Yes, you miss a neat scene if it plays out differently. And? That's what happens in roleplaying when you take one path instead of the other.

Also, there can be plenty of suffering and consequence without death.

[Raycer X]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*Snip-Snip*
The reason why I prefer Carver as a Grey Warden is because he stops being a colossal ****** . Making him a Templar subjects him to a life of lyrium-addicted hell, though you're right that it would've been interesting to see how it played out.

That is the exact same reason why I had Carver join the Wardens. However, as you may already know, he won't live past age 50-60 since by that time, he'll probably either: 

A. Die in a battle before The Calling.
B. Experience "The Calling" and head off to the Deep Roads to die there.

There's also no sense in expecting a nephew since he didn't have any children before his Joining.

(Unless, of course, Bioware decides to throw a few wrenches in the storyline in DA3 and have characters make new discoveries that would erase previous conditions...)

[TEWR]

Persephone wrote...

The quest itself worked just fine for me. It was one of those which actually had drive and it still makes me misty eyed. Would I have liked more inter-action with Momma Hawke beforehand? Yes. But I loved the quest line itself. Everyone involved shone, esp. the LI and Aveline. And seeing Gamlen tear up over his sister, esp. with my Hawke saying how she failed Carver....very well done indeed.

And while the Cousland origin was well done, its lack of influence over my Warden left me kinda disappointed. Even Alistair who keeps going on & on about Duncan conveniently forgets about it. And Wynne's attempt to "console" my Warden only made me hate her (Wynne) more,while Aveline managed to say just the right thing. And damn, the confrontation with Gascard afterwards.....amazing VO acting from Hawke there.

It was definitely well done (save for Momma Hawke wobbling in the battle ). I always enjoy Merrill's comforting words and seeing Gamlen tear up and break down really made me like him a bit more.


I just feel that the great quest itself was a disappointment to the story because of a few things:

1) Hawke and/or Aveline don't attempt an actual investigation prior to Prime Suspect, despite plenty of evidence to warrant an investigation. Especially if you brought Aveline during the quest in Act 1.
2) Hawke doesn't think to warn his mother about a serial killer in Kirkwall (a dialogue would've been nice. Doesn't need to change her death, but at least Hawke would've told her about him)
3) We don't talk to Hawke's mom enough times for most players to feel a connection to her.


The scene itself is heartwrenching as I said before, but it just didn't make me bawl. And I was disappointed because of that.

Raycer X wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*Snip-Snip*
The reason why I prefer Carver as a Grey Warden is because he stops being a colossal ****** . Making him a Templar subjects him to a life of lyrium-addicted hell, though you're right that it would've been interesting to see how it played out.

That is the exact same reason why I had Carver join the Wardens. However, as you may already know, he won't live past age 50-60 since by that time, he'll probably either: 

A. Die in a battle before The Calling.
B. Experience "The Calling" and head off to the Deep Roads to die there.

There's also no sense in expecting a nephew since he didn't have any children before his Joining.

(Unless, of course, Bioware decides to throw a few wrenches in the storyline in DA3 and have characters make new discoveries that would erase previous conditions...)

Wardens can have children with non-Wardens. But 2 Wardens can't have children. That's one of the reasons why Morrigan can have the OGB. I don't think anything truly magical was involved in the DR. I think it was just plain, unmagicked, hot sex between Xanthos Aeducan and Morrigan.

I agree that Quentin shouldn't be the one mage that taints all others and thus allows for their condemnation. But I do think he was intended to be yet one more example of a "mage gone wrong/crazy." The execution may have been flawed, or may have needed something more (or for some players, something less). I didn't get a good sense of his personal loss though - while the story element was presented, I found that the focus was on his deeds, not so much the reason behind them.

By the time the quest rolls around though, we already have had a few examples of mages working outside of the Circle - Grace, Idunna. We already know that magic can be something threatening and can lead to possession - Wilmod, Thrask's daughter. These are all rare cases in the grand scheme of day-to-day life in Kirkwall, yes, but I think their sum total is supposed to create a certain wariness and unease with all things magic, particularly blood magic. Hawke travels with companions (and sometimes family) who are willing to condemn mages, or are at least vocal about their own discomfort with magic.

Personally, I don't believe that a person who commits a crime should be representative of an entire people and therefore be worthy of all-out revulsion. But I think for the game, Quentin was one more drop in the bucket that was intended to pool together all of the bad aspects of magic. There are just as many examples on the Templar side. Ultimately, maybe neither list of the bad was enough to make a player feel one way or the other, or to be immersed in the schism to come in Act 3. Some people will play their Hawkes as reactionary (all mages/templars are bad), whereas some will play Hawke as cautious (some mages/templars are bad, and I need to do x,y or z about it).

Not to say that you weren't immersed, Lilunebrium.  No personal attack was intended here, so I hope my rambling did not come across that way.

I dislike Quentin being used to show how "Mages are evil" but I can't change that now. He has a solid reason for going insane, unlike Decimus or Grace who went insane because the plot demanded it. I can't say "Mages are evil" because of what one man did, even if I just lost someone dear to me.

Idunna and Tarohne were good examples of the dangers of magic. Danarius' apprentice was also a good show of the dangers of blood magic when abused.

What he did with his magic was wrong sure, but I don't account him for the dangers of mages everywhere one bit. Magic yes. Mages no.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 juillet 2011 - 12:59 .

[Beerfish]

Although I haven't played the entire game yet (still have a good deal of Act 3 - ick), I have to say the quest line involving Hawke's mother just seemed a total failure, assuming it was supposed to cause some emotional resonance for the player.  Going down the reasons.

1.  It was very clear from the beginning, due to already knowing about the killer, that you were going to find something nasty at the end.

Not at all, it was far from clear what was going to happen or what you were going to find unless you have telepathy or had heard about the quest before.

2.  The map you finally find her on had random treasures placed throughout.  Although I guess it's realistic that vendor trash could be anywhere, it sort of breaks immersion if the game lets your character wander into a side hallway and open up a crate for a few silver.

This complaint is a valid one regarding random treasure but this is has nothing to do with this quest.  Most quest have random loot laying around.

3.  When you finally get the reveal, the result is amazingly, over-the-top gruesome.  I can think of no reason the writers would want to do this but to create silly melodrama.  Just the death of your mother would have been a blow enough for Hawke.

The whole idea behind the quest was not to just bump off mom, it was to show the twisted mind of Quentin and yes to shock with the animate zombie, which it did quite well.

4.  I dunno if it's Hawke's voice acting, or just the gaps the voiceover by nature has, but your responses just don't sound realistic for the situation.  Mind you, I picked the diplomatic options,  but it was almost as if you were trying to calm down your mother, rather than desperately stop from breaking up in front of her.

Agreed, most of the voice acting was pretty decent but the lead hawkes have it tougher than the other npcs as far as emtion goes.  If they go too far one way or the other they are putting words and or emotion into the players mouth so to speak so they have to be more neutral.

5.  It's especially odd, because Gamlen shows real sadness at his sister's death, which actually *did* get me choked up and empathizing with him more, but your responses back to him are still rather without effect, considering this was probably the worst day in your life. 

See my answer above, they can show a lot of emotion with others like Gamlen and Merrill when she gets upset at times because that is not the lead character.

Anyway, thoughts? 

Overall the only thing about the quest that I didn't like is that there is no way at all to save the mother.  That quest works well the very 1st time you play it but is much less impactful on any replays.

[TEWR]

4. I dunno if it's Hawke's voice acting, or just the gaps the voiceover by nature has, but your responses just don't sound realistic for the situation. Mind you, I picked the diplomatic options, but it was almost as if you were trying to calm down your mother, rather than desperately stop from breaking up in front of her.

IMO that's what the purple options did. Male Hawke sounded like he was trying to keep from breaking down in front of her.

Overall the only thing about the quest that I didn't like is that there is no way at all to save the mother.  That quest works well the very 1st time you play it but is much less impactful on any replays.

The same could be said for Trian to a Dwarf Noble, the Couslands to a Human Noble, Tamlen to a Dalish Elf, etc.


Sometimes **** happens and you can't control it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 juillet 2011 - 01:14 .

[Tirfan]

^^ Weell, to point one.. the journal gives you metagaming info that the quest-line is main-quest and the fact you can't get the killer.. I thought it was pretty obvious that the quest would at some point affect Hawke in one way or another.

And I'll just have to disagree with the quest doing quite well in shocking, but I won't get into this deeper, as the last time I did I was called a troll.

Modifié par Tirfan, 05 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .

[Sanguinerin]

Personally, I did not like the quest at all.

Truthfully, I was sitting on the edge of my seat in a frenzy on the chase to find mother. It's probably the only time I ever didn't go out of my way to get the loot out of random chests. I had lost Bethany to the ogre, and Carver was gone as well. I had to save mother.

Then the quest just spiralled downward for me from there. I didn't find the Frankenstein's monster plot to be well done. I don't find the reasoning behind the quest, i.e. to show the evils of magic, to be a good enough reason. The dark side of magic is abundant throughout the entire game. I don't understand how mother was the only one able to talk despite the creature being a collection of women.

The actress is fantastic. She did an amazing job as Eleanor Cousland, but I don't love her as much when she's playing Leandra. Perhaps this is my fault, though. As soon as I heard Deborah Moore, I had high expectations for Leandra. Our lack of genuine interaction with her proved to be a downfall, of course not one of the actress. I feel that she did a great job with what she was given, and with the terribly rushed delivery time.

Hawke, like when a sibling dies to the ogre, seems fairly emotionless as well. I'm afraid of picking anything other than diplomatic after she said, "well, at least father won't be alone anymore" or something to that degree after choosing the humour line post-ogre fight.

The build-up to this quest was amazing, and then it fell flat (for me). It was a quasi-example of plot deaths driving the story, only the reasoning behind it is why I call it "quasi." Having some deranged lunatic kill mother isn't a good enough reason for me to condemn all mages. Had the killer been a deranged rogue, I wouldn't have gone on a rampage and slaughtered the Coterie...

Making Quentin anything less than sane kind of derails the reason from, "the dangers of magic" to "the dangers of madmen."

Edit: I understand that deaths can be used to drive a story, however, one of my problems with Dragon Age II is that too many deaths really feel inevitable. Our champion is really terrible at saving people...

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 05 juillet 2011 - 01:58 .

[Big I]

HallowedWarden wrote...
Had the killer been a deranged rogue, I wouldn't have gone on a rampage and slaughtered the Coterie...

This. It wasn't until Act 3 when Meredith mentions Quentin killing Leandra that I realised that the point of the quest was to make Hawke question how "safe" mages were. I always thought of it as just some crazy guy being crazy.


Honestly, I barely cared about Leandra. She only has a handful of lines before she died, and they can mostly be summarised as "why are we so poor?" and "I'm glad we're not poor any more." What really enraged me about this quest was that it a) was further evidence that the family was completely disposable, and was another instance where failure was the only option, regardless of how you approached it. Helped Emoric? Irrelevant. Worked with Gascard? Doesn't matter. You will always lose.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...
I did enjoy the story Aveline told...the only time I heard it (I hear that bug's fixed now). And the LI's...I really disliked Fenris's moment. That was a perfect moment for him to step up as a character and be in that relationship with Hawke. That was a perfect moment for a Shining Moment of Awesome from all the LIs....but Fenris fell short. Isabela was short but her's was slightly more in-character than Fenris's.

I think that may have been the point of Fenris. Remember, after he slept with Hawke he ran away, traumatized by his memories and crying about how he can't do this. In my mind, that's a break-up scene (I know canonically it doesn't have to be, but if it happened to you in real life you'd assume this person wants nothing else to do with you.)

I think for Hawke, that Fenris would show up and make even the smallest attempts at comforting him/her would be a marvel. But he's telling the truth when he says he doesn't know what to say. He doesn't remember a mother. He can understand how you feel but not imagine it for himself.

It's left ambiguous, but I think his quip about not "filling these moments with idle talk" and then sitting down next to Hawke is supposed to imply he's offering to sleep with him/her again. I think. Of course the scene fades out before you can ask for clarification or decide how Hawke would respond to that offer, but it really might be the only idea he has for making Hawke feel better, or at least forget about things for a while.

Foolsfolly wrote...
Never romanced Anders.

Anders's comfort is actually one of the better ones. He tells you that when the pain fades, you'll be thankful you knew your mother for as long as you did. He tries to get you to remember the good things rather then the painful way it all ended. He tells you he's sorry he won't ever get to know her, and is generally considerate and supportive.

(Not sure how he reacts if you blame mages for what happened.)

Oddly enough, the most touching Comfort scene comes from Isabella, who actually, alone of your companions, will say something that might make you feel better.

She'll point out that you stopped him. Quinten will never hurt anyone again because of you.

Nothing any of the other LI's say comes even close. My respect for Isabella skyrocketed after that scene. She's a lot wiser then she gets credit for.

[FJVP]

DreamerM wrote...

Anders's comfort is actually one of the better ones. He tells you that when the pain fades, you'll be thankful you knew your mother for as long as you did. He tries to get you to remember the good things rather then the painful way it all ended. He tells you he's sorry he won't ever get to know her, and is generally considerate and supportive.

(Not sure how he reacts if you blame mages for what happened.)

He says that he understands that you are upset and that that is why you are blaming magic and that you can yell to him if it'll make you feel better. I still don't like him though, his stupid comment "I wonder if we'll find more than bones this time" was enough to ruin the only moment in which he didn't annoy me.

Modifié par FJVP, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:39 .

[Carmen_Willow]

The minute I saw the white lillies on the table, I knew she was a red shirt. When I saw the red line on her throat, I knew she was toast. Bethany's death in the deep roads was much more tramatic and realistic. I cried when Bethy died. I shrugged my shoulders when mum came stumbling over....

[Foolsfolly]

Thanks DreamerM.

...maybe I should romance Anders just once to see how that plays out.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Thanks DreamerM.

...maybe I should romance Anders just once to see how that plays out.

Ya know, one thing struck me as a curious kind of switch-up that ISABELLA is the one who will bring up the fact that justice was done in killing Quinten, instead of, ya know, the guy with JUSTICE actually in his head.

But I think Justice is only concerned with mages now. Other kinds of injustice (such as betraying Fenris by selling him back to Denarius) don't bother him anymore. Alas.

[megski]

DreamerM wrote...

Anders's comfort is actually one of the better ones. He tells you that when the pain fades, you'll be thankful you knew your mother for as long as you did. He tries to get you to remember the good things rather then the painful way it all ended. He tells you he's sorry he won't ever get to know her, and is generally considerate and supportive.

(Not sure how he reacts if you blame mages for what happened.)

That was one of the most awesome things Anders did through out the romance with him.  I mentioned it earlier I think, but if you blame mages, he sticks around, comforts you, and keeps his mouth shut about the comment.  I was impressed, it made me think maybe he really did care about Hawke.

[snfonseka]

We have seen/ read that kind of stories many times. Nothing new with this story, one of the most boring parts of DA2 storyline to me.

[Macropodmum]

Foolsfolly wrote...

3. When you finally get the reveal, the result is amazingly, over-the-top gruesome. I can think of no reason the writers would want to do this but to create silly melodrama. Just the death of your mother would have been a blow enough for Hawke.

It's a mix of wanting to make an emotional beat for the player and wanting to continue to drive the dull nail of "MAGES ARE EVIL" into our skulls. 

Exactly and one would have to wonder why...

Zcorck wrote...

Aside from what's already been said, I found it quite cliché that the 'hero' loses his family.
And I pretty much count GW/Circle in that category as well due to you barely seeing them for 5 min in a span for too many years.
At the rate you were losing your family, I was like  'cos I was surprised that they actually went there just to make it more dramatic never mind predictable.

por favor wrote...

I don't know how I'm expected to feel any kind of emotion over my momHawke dying if I barely even spoke to her throughout the game or spent any time with her whatsoever.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Of Sandal, Bodahn & Dog. I wonder which one knew her the best.

Same here, I think that is the reason that I found killing an enitre clan of Dalish more upsetting

[Corto81]

i thought it was poorly done, especially when compared to say, Cousland Origins.
You walked about your estate there, talked to everyone, got a glimple into everyday life, found your little nephew talking about griffons, your dog, your cook, your librarian, etc.
You could connect because it fel deep enough, immersive enough and real enough.

In DA2, you speak to your mother like twice.
You speak to your sibling about the same.

The quest itself was one of the low points of the game for me, personally, done in the way it was done.
It had so much potential.
Why?

1 - I never felt connected to my mother. Felt more like my autistic roommate

2 - the quest ends the same no matter what you do... But sadly, for some reason, they chose to go that way on pretty much everything in DA2

3 - the ending was hilarious instead of sad...unless I completely misunderstood it, he had Leandra's head on a body made out of different dead women... And that HEAD was talking to you.... lol?

----

It was "meh", at best, IMO.

[Dave of Canada]

Reading the comments about the quest on Youtube, people found it really sad.

[DreamerM]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Reading the comments about the quest on Youtube, people found it really sad.

It was, in concept. In execution? Not so much.