1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Valentia X wrote...
I'm not voting for all cameos to be awesome, and honestly in a lot of these situations, I'd be totally cool with an email about the whole matter.

A lot of this really doesn't affect me all that much- I'm a total renegon but most of my big decisions are paragon, so I don't miss content. I just want some renegade options to be lauded after the fact, a few cameos (regardless of whether I get them or not, tbh) and maybe some emails. 

 

True. 

Doesn't affect me either. I'm a paragade and I don't want to see those I killed bothering me. I killed them for a reason. Even the cameos I did get (hello Gianni and Shiala) tended to annoy me. It felt forced and contrived and silly. Why on earth are our paths crossing? So much for a large vast galaxy. AND why on earth can't I kill that stupid Asari? SureI didn't kill her the first time but I told her to get her act straight, she didn't. Then my companions have the nerve to b**** at me about it! I can't kill her in ME2! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:02 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The people at Bioware are not above reproach. Thus the existence of this thread.

They've fallen short and some players are disatisfied.

I'd still say they know more about game design, since it's their job, so I'd take their words above the players.

Yes, I am aware of some mistakes they've made, but what some people are asking for is just a infirm grasp at content that serve really no purpose other than acknowledging past actions. 

[Raiil]

Ryzaki wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
I'm not voting for all cameos to be awesome, and honestly in a lot of these situations, I'd be totally cool with an email about the whole matter.

A lot of this really doesn't affect me all that much- I'm a total renegon but most of my big decisions are paragon, so I don't miss content. I just want some renegade options to be lauded after the fact, a few cameos (regardless of whether I get them or not, tbh) and maybe some emails. 

 

True. 

Doesn't affect me either. I'm a paragade and I don't want to see those I killed bothering me. I killed them for a reason. Even the cameos I did get (hello Gianni and Shiala) tended to annoy me. It felt forced and contrived and silly. Why on earth are our paths crossing? So much for a large vast galaxy. AND why on earth can't I kill that stupid Asari? SureI didn't kill her the first time but I told her to get her act straight, she didn't. Then my companions have the nerve to b**** at me about it! I can't kill her in ME2! 

I think part of the issue is that not all renegade options require death, or the death of the person you'd be getting a cameo from. I mentioned two examples earlier that I would have loved to see- one as an email from a survivor of Dr Hearts experiments or a family member of a victim (under the pretense that Garrus, since he's unkillable in part one, let it be known that he's dead) thanking my Shepard for killing him.

The other, and this may be more wishful thinking so YMMV, is a variant from the Toombs letter you can get in part 2. I killed the doctor because he was an unethical little f--ktard but I didn't want Toombs getting in trouble for it. Toombs always gets mad. I'd have liked to see a letter from Toombs who, knowing that Shepard is willing to subvert in order to get the job done, ponders whether Shepard is part of Cerberus in order to destroy it from within. It would reflect the paragon/renegade option- choosing to bring him to trial and thus 'saving' the doctor versus just shooting the little s--t in the head- and divide how Toombs could potentially view Shepard's actions.

Modifié par Valentia X, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:08 .

[Ryzaki]

Valentia X wrote...

I think part of the issue is that not all renegade options require death, or the death of the person you'd be getting a cameo from. I mentioned two examples earlier that I would have loved to see- one as an email from a survivor of Dr Hearts experiments or a family member of a victim (under the pretense that Garrus, since he's unkillable in part one, let it be known that he's dead) thanking my Shepard for killing him. 

The other, and this may be more wishful thinking so YMMV, is a variant from the Toombs letter you can get in part 2. I killed the doctor because he was an unethical little f--ktard but I didn't want Toombs getting in trouble for it. Toombs always gets mad. I'd have liked to see a letter from Toombs who, knowing that Shepard is willing to subvert in order to get the job done, ponders whether Shepard is part of Cerberus in order to destroy it from within. It would reflect the paragon/renegade option- choosing to bring him to trial and thus 'saving' the doctor versus just shooting the little s--t in the head- and divide how Toombs could potentially view Shepard's actions.

 

Part of the issue with that is that Dr. Heart issue should apply for both Paragon and Renegade. Both parties kill him.  Only difference is renegade attacks first. Which is something none of the victims family members will know. 

Huh? I thought killing the doctor results in Toombs killing himself?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:11 .

[Raiil]

Ryzaki wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

I think part of the issue is that not all renegade options require death, or the death of the person you'd be getting a cameo from. I mentioned two examples earlier that I would have loved to see- one as an email from a survivor of Dr Hearts experiments or a family member of a victim (under the pretense that Garrus, since he's unkillable in part one, let it be known that he's dead) thanking my Shepard for killing him. 

The other, and this may be more wishful thinking so YMMV, is a variant from the Toombs letter you can get in part 2. I killed the doctor because he was an unethical little f--ktard but I didn't want Toombs getting in trouble for it. Toombs always gets mad. I'd have liked to see a letter from Toombs who, knowing that Shepard is willing to subvert in order to get the job done, ponders whether Shepard is part of Cerberus in order to destroy it from within. It would reflect the paragon/renegade option- choosing to bring him to trial and thus 'saving' the doctor versus just shooting the little s--t in the head- and divide how Toombs could potentially view Shepard's actions.

 

Part of the issue with that is that Dr. Heart issue should apply for both Paragon and Renegade. Both parties kill him.  Only difference is renegade attacks first. Which is something none of the victims family members will know. 

Huh? I thought killing the doctor results in Toombs killing himself?

Hm, I hadn't thought about that angle for the Dr Heart mission. I concede the point.

And I kill the doctor, and lead Toombs away, but I took the intimidate option followed by the paragon (non-blue) dialogue, and I'm a sole survivor- the rpg text bubble afterwards said that I led Toombs away, letting him know that he'd never be left behind/be alone again (one of those two). Toombs is alive for me. Whether Toombs lives or dies is dependent on how much charm/intimidate you have and a specific dialogue option, apparently:

If you have at least 10 points in Charm, you can convince Corporal Toombs to lower his weapon, and let the Alliance authorities arrest the scientist. If you have sufficient points in Intimidate, you can shoot the scientist yourself. Note that you must select "What happened?" when prompted to access these options. Otherwise you either have to kill him, or let him kill the scientist. However, unless you have sufficient Charm or Intimidate stats, he either forces you to shoot him, or he shoots the scientist and then himself. If Toombs is killed, the scientist will give you credits as a reward, but you can still arrest him afterwards.

Per the wiki.

[marshalleck]

I don't want to be lauded as a hero for taking renegade decisions. If anything, it would fit the tone of the renegade game if the follow-ups were adversarial. You know, the best part of being renegade is that turian gunshop owner in the Citadel who thoroughly hates Shepard, if Shepard let the Council die. He's hilarious, entertaining, acknowledges your decision in a reasonably realistic way and by no means does he consider Shepard a hero for the decision made. And, he's not really related to the event at all. More interactions like that would be welcome.

And before anyone says "well lol there's your payoff for being Renegade, stop making threads now kthxbai" his personality completely flips for Paragons, so he's actually one of very few examples of balanced acknowledgement.

[Raiil]

marshalleck wrote...

I don't want to be lauded as a hero for taking renegade decisions.

I think it should vary by situation and NPC. 

[marshalleck]

Sure. Just saying, renegades aren't in it to make friends and that's not necessarily the acknowledgement I'd like to see. I gave what I think is one of the better examples of how to write a character taking into consideration a specific earlier renegade/paragon decision. If Bioware are unwilling to commit to that level of detail then perhaps they should lessen the number of decisions presentedso that each path can be equally developed. That's hardly an ideal solution, but it's a practical consideration nonetheless.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:35 .

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass sounds like a fairly typical case of privilege. So utterly ensconced in being handfed his cake that he can't possibly comprehend someone else's dissatisfaction. Sadly this is pretty routine with Bioware games and paladins/jedi/paragon/whatever. They just don't seem to know or really care about writing a decent antihero.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:42 .

[Ryzaki]

Valentia X wrote...

Hm, I hadn't thought about that angle for the Dr Heart mission. I concede the point.

And I kill the doctor, and lead Toombs away, but I took the intimidate option followed by the paragon (non-blue) dialogue, and I'm a sole survivor- the rpg text bubble afterwards said that I led Toombs away, letting him know that he'd never be left behind/be alone again (one of those two). Toombs is alive for me. Whether Toombs lives or dies is dependent on how much charm/intimidate you have and a specific dialogue option, apparently:

If you have at least 10 points in Charm, you can convince Corporal Toombs to lower his weapon, and let the Alliance authorities arrest the scientist. If you have sufficient points in Intimidate, you can shoot the scientist yourself. Note that you must select "What happened?" when prompted to access these options. Otherwise you either have to kill him, or let him kill the scientist. However, unless you have sufficient Charm or Intimidate stats, he either forces you to shoot him, or he shoots the scientist and then himself. If Toombs is killed, the scientist will give you credits as a reward, but you can still arrest him afterwards.

Per the wiki.

 

Oooh. Odd I missed that. 

So it should be different. Would be interesting if it was different for each choice. 

[Raiil]

Ryzaki wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Hm, I hadn't thought about that angle for the Dr Heart mission. I concede the point.

And I kill the doctor, and lead Toombs away, but I took the intimidate option followed by the paragon (non-blue) dialogue, and I'm a sole survivor- the rpg text bubble afterwards said that I led Toombs away, letting him know that he'd never be left behind/be alone again (one of those two). Toombs is alive for me. Whether Toombs lives or dies is dependent on how much charm/intimidate you have and a specific dialogue option, apparently:

If you have at least 10 points in Charm, you can convince Corporal Toombs to lower his weapon, and let the Alliance authorities arrest the scientist. If you have sufficient points in Intimidate, you can shoot the scientist yourself. Note that you must select "What happened?" when prompted to access these options. Otherwise you either have to kill him, or let him kill the scientist. However, unless you have sufficient Charm or Intimidate stats, he either forces you to shoot him, or he shoots the scientist and then himself. If Toombs is killed, the scientist will give you credits as a reward, but you can still arrest him afterwards.

Per the wiki.

 

Oooh. Odd I missed that. 

So it should be different. Would be interesting if it was different for each choice. 

I think marshalleck had a good point in the dialogue flipping. I would love more of that. Just that small difference that shows how differently we can affect things.

[JamieCOTC]

Dave of Canada wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

I still don't see how renegades are "punished."  I honestly don't see it.

No cameos, lack of ingame information, lack of mention of decisions, decisions made irrelevant when considering the paragon alternative (metagame), you need more resources to patch up your character, paragon charm options to claim loyalty but no intimidate options to claim loyalty, inconsistency in dialogue (including the post-Collector Base dialogue), almost identical to default Shepard (what's the purpose of importing a Renegade?) and many more.

I've written in great detail about this many times, though I'm unable to do so right now. I've got this entry here that covers a few of it  more in detail.

I respect your position and enjoed your very well written blog.  While you make some good points, (especially how a full renegade is practically a default Shepard), we'll have to agree to disagree.  The paragon/renegade system is deeply flawed.  Case in point.  I had a Renegade Shep that as far as her actions, behaved identical to my Paragon, but she was kind of a b*tch to everyone.  And even though they were on friendly terms, Samara still wanted to kill her.  Her red bar was higher than her blue bar, but that's a symptom of a faulty system, not a punishment. On the Zaeed mission, I think they copped out w/ the paragons, but again, I don't see that as a punishment for the renegades. 

As for renegade Shep = default Shep, that seems to be laziness on BW's part, and I feel for players affected by that, but it's not a punishment. It's laziness coupled with a flawed system. To suggest the only way to make it right is to punish other players is ridiculous.  The way to make it right is for BW to put forth more effort and fix the system.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Valentia X wrote...
I think marshalleck had a good point in the dialogue flipping. I would love more of that. Just that small difference that shows how differently we can affect things.

 

That would be fine. 

Humans disliking Shep while Shep is much more warmly received by alien NPCs would be epic. 

[Raiil]

Ryzaki wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
I think marshalleck had a good point in the dialogue flipping. I would love more of that. Just that small difference that shows how differently we can affect things.

 

That would be fine. 

Humans disliking Shep while Shep is much more warmly received by alien NPCs would be epic. 

Oo, I want that like burning. I've always wanted to be able to promote a pro-galactic viewpoint with other humans; my Shep is definitely like that. Plus should make for some interesting debates. Maybe some 'why are you so nice to my race' questions too?

ETA: I've been wanting to see this on a few different levels now- I'm actually in the middle of doing the UNC: Major Kyle mission and I would've loved to point out that hey, I'm a frigging adept, don't talk to me about how biotics are mistreated, I already know how that goes. Biotics, if you're in an alien/human relationship... I feel like BW misses out on some potential dialogue goldmines sometimes.

Modifié par Valentia X, 06 juillet 2011 - 05:05 .

[Ryzaki]

Valentia X wrote...
Oo, I want that like burning. I've always wanted to be able to promote a pro-galactic viewpoint with other humans; my Shep is definitely like that. Plus should make for some interesting debates. Maybe some 'why are you so nice to my race' questions too?

 

As long as a few humans jump aboard Shep's alien love train. 

With some funny comments if Shep's LI is an alien. XD 

[KainrycKarr]

They should both equal win.

[Raiil]

Ryzaki wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
Oo, I want that like burning. I've always wanted to be able to promote a pro-galactic viewpoint with other humans; my Shep is definitely like that. Plus should make for some interesting debates. Maybe some 'why are you so nice to my race' questions too?

 

As long as a few humans jump aboard Shep's alien love train. 

With some funny comments if Shep's LI is an alien. XD 

LOL, I just edited my comment above to add wanting some dialogue about being in an alien/human relationship. It could be serious flame-on shouting or some embarrassed passerby wanting some information. XD

[Ryzaki]

Valentia X wrote...
LOL, I just edited my comment above to add wanting some dialogue about being in an alien/human relationship. It could be serious flame-on shouting or some embarrassed passerby wanting some information. XD

 

LOL 

Oh god make it be both for the sheer lulz.   

And yes biotics should be able to bring up their abilities (and use them outside comnbat) more. 

[Raiil]

Ryzaki wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
LOL, I just edited my comment above to add wanting some dialogue about being in an alien/human relationship. It could be serious flame-on shouting or some embarrassed passerby wanting some information. XD

 

LOL 

Oh god make it be both for the sheer lulz.   

And yes biotics should be able to bring up their abilities (and use them outside comnbat) more. 

If they let us use biotics out of combat, we're going to end up with a thousand adept Shepards using singularity to float around the Citadel shouting 'gravity is for chumps!'

Oh dear, we've gone off topic... swerving back, I am still rooting for some paragade/renegon options. That would be lovely.

Not that I'm against this scenario, mind you.

[Ryzaki]

Valentia X wrote...
If they let us use biotics out of combat, we're going to end up with a thousand adept Shepards using singularity to float around the Citadel shouting 'gravity is for chumps!'

Oh dear, we've gone off topic... swerving back, I am still rooting for some paragade/renegon options. That would be lovely.

Not that I'm against this scenario, mind you.

 

That or having some lulz with that blasted reporter. 

And yeah so am I. That would be nice. And singularity + reporter would be love. 

[Haristo]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

But, if blue doesn't mean win.. how am I suppose to know what to do?

that's why the ''bad guyz'' always win the PvP in MMOs...

OP is right... Renegade Shepard is supposed to be an **** who likes to get the job done fast and at all costs, it's supposed to be the kind of jerk who makes everything blow up for ''teh lulz''. He also focus on making sure everything works or he gonna mind **** everyone.

Letting some of his companion dies is pissing him off, he is not supposed to appreciate someone who isn't ''loyal'' to him and make sure by a kind of ego trip that everyone follow him blindly. 

A good Renegade Shepard is supposed to Kick ass and chew bubble gum. he's maybe a son of a ****, but he's OUR son of a ****.

[mauro2222]

Skirata129 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

People remember, childs don´t, is a matter of education, if all humanity know about history, war will not exist, money will not exist, poverty will not exist.

Not true at all. all of those would still exist, war would just have better justiication and be waged more intelligently. and how are money and poverty the result of people not studying history? that makes no sense at all. they are the result of simple economics.

Sorry I didn´t exprese myself correctly.
Education in general is the solution. No one in his right mind and well educated would choose a monetary system, considering that makes more harm than good.

Modifié par mauro2222, 06 juillet 2011 - 05:51 .

[Vanguard of your Destruction1123]

Faolin wrote...

We do know that there is such a thing as Rachni Husks in ME3. So assuming they're made sufficiently badass/dangerous, saving the Rachni isn't consequence free.

I personally think gameplay (rather than story) is the perfect place to "punish paragons". A Paragon makes a choice because it fits their morals, and is willing to suffer any consequences that come from that. MAKE them suffer, make their game that much harder, but if they manage to succeed regardless give them the happy ending they're looking for.
Disclaimer: I personally am a Paragon, but made several of the major choices (including the Rachni one) as Renegade.

Interesting. Like Virmire with the alarms or Zaeed's mission?

[knightnblu]

"Renegade has simply been degraded to the image of "ruthless douchebag" whose actions seem trivial and needless in the scope of the entire game because for the most part renegade usually equates to less content (with the killing of characters) and in this aspect it feels like the renegade is being punished."

Not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't that the natural end of the renegade path? When you kill off characters they don't usually show up again unless you visit their grave. One could argue that the paragon would like to see an NPC again. It could equally be argued that the renegade got his enjoyment by terminating the NPC. Two different playing styles, two different results. Renegades also like to mess with people, but when you are nasty to people just to be contrary, your victims aren't usually inclined to do you favors later on. That's life.

Back in the day when I played pencil and paper rpg games, we called such playing styles by the labels of lawful/chaotic good and evil. The choices are made by the player because he enjoys role playing in that style. A chaotic evil character is unpredictable and liable to do anything. A lawful evil player is governed by order, but ruthless in how he goes about his business. I see renegades in much the same light.

While I certainly agree that there are times when the renegade path is most certainly the most appropriate (for example when you kill the volus' bodyguards on Garrus' loyalty mission rather than wait for them to draw down on you), the majority of the time they are inappropriate if you prefer to use diplomacy.

I realize that this is an rpg game and that people have vastly different playing styles, but if you like to play the bad boy/girl, then you have to pay for it. Likewise, choices made by paragons sometimes make their game a bit more difficult. As an example, when you are interrogating the human on Thane's loyalty mission the renegade can get the information in a heartbeat, but the paragon has to work a lot harder to get the same results, yet I hear no renegades complaining about that.

By advocating that the "goody two shoes" player suffer because they were not nasty pieces of work is wrong in my opinion. By so doing, you are advocating the demise of the morality system of the game and thereby gutting it. I have seen many of these threads and they are all very similar in that the renegade players don't regret the choices they made, but instead want to punish the players who did not make those choices so that they can feel better about their play style. In my opinion that's petty, but this is what the renegades call fair. There is an old saying that describes this state of affairs perfectly: You can't have your cake and eat it to.

I would argue that it cannot be known whose play style is optimal because nobody knows the story of ME3, but BioWare. It may be that the renegade path was the hands down best play style and the paragons have their work cut out for them. My advice is to play the way you want to play the game and get the most enjoyment out of the Mass Effect series that you can and let the chips fall where they may. You spent your hard earned coin and you should get as much entertainment out of it as you can and view any differences as a unique challenge for your playing style. Ultimately, I believe that regardless of paragon or renegade preference, we will all face difficult challenges in spite of our playing style in ME3.