1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Grunk]

Yeah. I actually remember being sort of disappointed I didn't hear anything about Fist's subordinates or something coming after me after I killed him. Or just my Shepard generally being a jerk and hearing nothing about it later. I made the major choices as Paragon for the most part at first so I didn't notice, but later on a pure Renegade playthrough, I caught it in ME2 and was let down. I'm hoping that it's just a matter of ME2 being the middle of a trilogy and maybe it all comes to pass in ME3. Which still really isn't equal representation for the choices players can make, which would be ideal, but I would appreciate it.

I dunno. I don't really like the Paragon/Renegade thing in general. The only time I was OK with this sort of thing was KoToR, and it still aggravated me because it's just a binary. I think binaries are extremely uninteresting and flat in terms of gameplay and narrative, and I think gamers can handle something rounder and less archaic. I mean that both as a design and as a matter of presenting worldviews.

[Grunk]

Nah, you're fine. You're up late and I've had several rum and cokes and have been reading too much Amiri Baraka. :-P I get what you're saying. I'm not sure if I found that to be the case in ME1, but I think it's because after making a big choice as Paragon, I could go back and be a jerk at people. "Screw you, I didn't kill the Rachni because you can go to hell!" or whatever it was I was able to say. Or maybe I just cut the transmission or something. I somehow managed to make it make sense, even if it was just in my head and how I identified with Shepard.

On your second bit, did you play DA2 and feel that way? I actually found myself regretting making my Hawke have an aggressive personality because sometimes he just sounded like an ****. Like, way worse than Shep. Sometimes playing ME1 my first time, I said "Wow, did you have to take it that far, Renegade Shep?" My aggressive-tone Hawke was so mean that I often wanted to apologize for his behavior like the parent of a problematic child.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

There we go.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Just like how Renegade Shepard is a delusional idiot when he thinks that giving the Collector base to a bunch of terrorists will benefit mankind?

It works both ways.

Sounds like someone forgot the premise of Mass Effect 2... who are you working with that whole time again?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Destiny Ascension is a humans vs aliens decision. Arrival not.

It´s not the same.

"This is bigger than humanity, Sovereign is a threat to every species in the galaxy."

It's not a human vs alien decision.

It is a human vs alien decision.

It is presented as a human vs alien decision (You'd sacrifice human lives to save the council? What have they ever done for your kind?)...and the outcome (multi-racial council vs human tyranny) reflects that.

The same person that says that later agrees with the other squad member who responded by saying:

"This is bigger than humanity, Sovereign is a threat to every species in the galaxy."

It had human vs alien implications... but was not a human vs alien descision.  That'd be really petty and extremely short-sighted at a time where all life in the galaxy was at stake.

[Harid]

The Good/Paragon way is always the best way in Bioware games.

I don't know why this is expected to change.

[rwilli80]

The problem with the way ME has turned out the Paragon means that you want to help every single person you come across and in the long run when the Reapers are trying to wipe out the galaxy the Paragon can't possibly help everyone or they'll be hurting more in the long run by letting the enemy build up strength. But the same can be said with the Renegade, you can't go balls to the wall or by the time you get to the enemy you won't have sufficient forces to take him out.

In my opinion if you decide to go 100% either direction you should be penalized, the game should force people out of their comfort zone and make the hard call, to save the civilian colony or the military installation... sacrifice a few to save the many.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Just like how Renegade Shepard is a delusional idiot when he thinks that giving the Collector base to a bunch of terrorists will benefit mankind?

It works both ways.

Sounds like someone forgot the premise of Mass Effect 2... who are you working with that whole time again?

 

You say that like that somehow makes up for the damage they did. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 06:55 .

[Grunk]

Harid wrote...

The Good/Paragon way is always the best way in Bioware games.

I don't know why this is expected to change.

Actually, there are times in Dragon Age: Origins were it works more to the player's benefit to be a tool. I can't recall any offhand, but I remember doing a lot of lying and killing in order to get the best quest rewards. I also feel like I remember completing a quest, choosing the nice guy response at the end and not getting jack but experience, whereas being an A-hole got me the same amount plus cash.

Pretty sure that's like the only example, though. Unless you count driving off god damned Carth in KotoR.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Harid wrote...

The Good/Paragon way is always the best way in Bioware games.

I don't know why this is expected to change.

Casey's quote on the matter gives some hope that one button's not going to result in the most positive everything... in a game that's supposed to be about making difficult decisions.

When one button consistently presents the most positive outcomes, most content, and most poistiive validation across the board... the notion of "tough choice" falls flat.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I've never played DA or DA2 or any other Bioware games, actually.

You really should, or at the very least just the first game. Also, Alpha Protocol. That game just trumphs any choice and consequence we've seen in a Bioware game so far.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
You say that like that somehow makes up for the damage they did. 

Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians.  How much damage would you estimate that as being?  I don't remember Cerberus ever killing that many people.  Plus the mode of operation for Cerberus makes the majority of their misdeeds suspect.  I still don't trust Cerberus completely and I still consider them an enemy, but I don't think they're as bad as has been claimed either.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:01 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You say that like that somehow makes up for the damage they did. 

Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians.  How much damage would you estimate that as being?  I don't remember Cerberus ever killing that many people.  Plus the mode of operation for Cerberus makes the majority of their misdeeds suspect.  I still don't trust Cerberus completely and I still consider them an enemy, but I don't think they're as bad as has been claimed either.

 

Please do not compare Cerberus mostly senseless and achieved practically nothing slaughters to Shepard's actions on arrival. The actions aren't comparable. Shepard had a do or die choice, Cerberus has plenty of choices not to be complete douchebags they choose not too and not only are they douchebags but they're douchebags who constantly f*** up. 

Maybe if they managed to be successful without needing Shepard to clean up their mess I'd look upon them differently. They don't. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:05 .

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Cerberus hasn't done anything worse than what the other heavy hitters in the galaxy have done. I also don't think it is fair to say they've accomplished nothing. In fact, in light of ME2 it is downright asinine to say that.

ME2 is due to Shepard. Cerberus managed to not screw up on rebuilding the normandy and with EDI (with really is an accomplishment considering their massive fail rate). Shepard is the one who was stuck doing all the heavy lifting. 

They couldn't even bring Shepard back to life without losing nearly the whole team. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:06 .

[Praetor Knight]

And it's 300,000 individuals.

Who cares the race / origin; 300,000 is a steep price to pay.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
Please do not compare Cerberus mostly senseless and achieved practically nothing slaughters to Shepard's actions on arrival. The actions aren't comparable. Shepard had a do or die choice, Cerberus has plenty of choices not to be complete douchebags they choose not too and not only are they douchebags but they're douchebags who constantly f*** up. 

Point being, we know what happened with Shepard, we don't know what happened with Cerberus.  Some that we do know show rogue agents that lie to TIM about what's been going on.  The Cells themselves operate on their own and the cell operatives have total ground control.

Shepard himself is proof of this.  You don't have to turn over the base to TIM even though you're working with Cerberus.  TIM would've shut overlord down before the incident that happened there (actually he was about to... and that's what triggered it).

Further still, in a mission to stop a missle launch, Shepard is faced with not being able to stop both missles... he could've either bombed a populated area or some other site.  If Shepard chose the populated area... is Cerberus to blame?  TIM only sent Shepard there to stop the launch... nothing more

In the Arrival DLC, the Asari Specter was going to blame what happened there on Cerberus... when they had nothing to do with it.  EDIT:  Not the Arrival DLC, the LoTSB DLC.

Which brings us back to the point...  Shepard's not as bad as you would think his killing of 300,000 people can lead some to believe.  Likewise Cerberus is not as bad as their tales of misdeeds would lead one to believe.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:51 .

[Someone With Mass]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians.  How much damage would you estimate that as being?  I don't remember Cerberus ever killing that many people.  Plus the mode of operation for Cerberus makes the majority of their misdeeds suspect.  I still don't trust Cerberus completely and I still consider them an enemy, but I don't think they're as bad as has been claimed either.

Project Overlord that almost let a rogue VI loose on the extranet, all the facilities they blew up to create biotics, all the kids they captured and performed illegal experiments on, assassinations of Alliance admirals and turian Hierarch leaders, as well as several politicians, illegal AI research, stole classified military schematics, attempted bombing of quarian ships, cloning of rachni, experiments on thorian creepers, lured Alliance Navy ground units into traps with thresher maws,  the list goes on. 

Don't try to justify their actions. You'll just look like a total fool.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians.  How much damage would you estimate that as being?  I don't remember Cerberus ever killing that many people.  Plus the mode of operation for Cerberus makes the majority of their misdeeds suspect.  I still don't trust Cerberus completely and I still consider them an enemy, but I don't think they're as bad as has been claimed either.

Project Overlord that almost let a rogue VI loose on the extranet, all the facilities they blew up to create biotics, all the kids they captured and performed illegal experiments on, assassinations of Alliance admirals and turian Hierarch leaders, as well as several politicians, illegal AI research, stole classified military schematics, attempted bombing of quarian ships, cloning of rachni, experiments on thorian creepers, lured Alliance Navy ground units into traps with thresher maws,  the list goes on. 

Don't try to justify their actions. You'll just look like a total fool.

Read the post above you.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Point being, we know what happened with Shepard, we don't know what happened with Cerberus.  Some that we do know show rogue agents that lie to TIM about what's been going on.  The Cells themselves operate on their own and the cell leader has total ground control.

Uh...right that's totally why TIM overlooks each cell and the report to him yo. Rogue agents? How many operations are gonna go "rogue"? Seems like everytime something bad happens TIM (despite preparing for this by having such a small number of cells active at each time while he personally supervies) somehow is completely ignorant? Riiight. 

Shepard himself is proof of this.  You don't have to turn over the base to TIM even though you're working with Cerberus.  TIM would've shut overlord down before the incident that happened there (actually he was about to... and that's what triggered it).

Shepard is the exception not the rule. Shepard doesn't tend to listen to anyone. Overlord was due to TIM threatening to shut down if he didn't get results. Oddly suspicious he pushed them so hard and scared them so much that rather than say "well we're making progress." they decide to hook David up to that contraption. 

Further still, in a mission to stop a missle launch, Shepard is faced with not being able to stop both missles... he could've either bombed a populated area or some other site.  If Shepard chose the populated area... is Cerberus to blame?  TIM only sent Shepard there to stop the launch... nothing more

...Where did I say Cerberus was to blame for that? Oh wait I didn't. <_< Just like they're not to thank for every person Shepard saves of his own violation. 

In the Arrival DLC, the Asari Specter was going to blame what happened there on Cerberus... when they had nothing to do with it.

Uh...there is no Asari spectre in Arrival. Thats LoTSB. 

And yeah she was going to once Shepard was there. Not to mention she was corrupt and had the backing of the SB. You really think Cerberus is somehow innocent of everything? They were "falsely accused?" Huh. Guess those Cerberus bases Shepard storms in (and Miranda and Jacob acknowledge him being in) were my imagination. 

Which brings us back to the point...  Shepard's not as bad as you would think his killing of 300,000 people can lead some to believe.  Likewise Cerberus is not as bad as their tales of misdeeds would lead one to believe.

What on EARTH are you talking about? I don't think Arrival was bad. It was a sad necessity. Cerberus on the other hand has no excuse.