1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Shepard accomplished more in a few days than what Cerberus did in thirty years. So yeah. They're a liability at best.

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Tenpenny Tower quest is one the best questlines in any modern game.

I remember struggling not siding with the ghouls in that questline.

[Raiil]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You say that like that somehow makes up for the damage they did. 

Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians.  How much damage would you estimate that as being?  I don't remember Cerberus ever killing that many people.  Plus the mode of operation for Cerberus makes the majority of their misdeeds suspect.  I still don't trust Cerberus completely and I still consider them an enemy, but I don't think they're as bad as has been claimed either.

Arrival was a catastrophic failure of the cascading failure flavour. Shepard neither initiated the entire fiasco nor did they actually make the final decision- the closest we get to that is either 'Joker, get me out of here' or 'Attention Batarians: Run Like Hell'. The situation is deliberately set up so Shepard is in a no-win situation. 

Cerberus begins a long chain of heinous experiments. In a select number of cases, they are not totally responsible for the outcome, but their moral equivalancy- Salvation comes with a cost. Judge us not by our means, but what we seek to accomplish- lays the groundwork for things like Overlord and Pragia, not to mention the bulls--t that happens to Gillian and psychos like Kai Leng being given considered an employment option.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ME2 is due to Shepard.

No, it's due to Cerberus. Shepard didn't ressurect himself or stop the Collectors on his own. It was a Cerberus funded, supplied, and directed operation. Shepard is just a foot soldier.

A lot of Paragons conveniently forget that Jack "saviour of mankind" Harper is to thank for all that.

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ME2 is due to Shepard.

No, it's due to Cerberus. Shepard didn't ressurect himself or stop the Collectors on his own. It was a Cerberus funded, supplied, and directed operation. Shepard is just a foot soldier.

 

And Cerberus somehow managed to gather all the aliens/humans on Shep's crew and gather their loyalty? As well as get the materials needed for the upgrades?  

If Cerberus had been on their own it would've ended like another of their failures. 

And frankly ME2 is due to Harbinger being an idiot. Killing Shepard but somehow not finding the body. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:24 .

[kumquats]

Harid wrote...

The Good/Paragon way is always the best way in Bioware games.

I don't know why this is expected to change.

Maybe, but I hope that changes.

If you play on the DS in the other games, you are evil, you are the villain.
But I never had the feeling with the Renegade. My Paragon is my hero and my Renegade is my anti-hero, not the villain.

When I play my Paragon there a situations I have a feeling my Paragon is going to regret in ME3. On the other hand there are a lot Renegade decisions that are though calls, but make much more sence to me.

BW should bring the whole moral-System to the next Level and not stick to the old ways where it was good vs. evil.

Modifié par kumquats, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:24 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
No, it's due to Cerberus. Shepard didn't ressurect himself or stop the Collectors on his own. It was a Cerberus funded, supplied, and directed operation. Shepard is just a foot soldier.

And yet, he's the one who gets away with the billion credit ship in the end (which was based on schematics Cerberus blatantly stole from the Alliance, I might add), he's the one who lead the attack on the Collector base and he's the one who gathered allies, not Cerberus.

They have money. That's it. That's all they're good for. Anything else beyond supplying Shepard with material and locations like the ship and the locations of some squadmates is just a waste of time.

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ME2 is due to Shepard.

No, it's due to Cerberus. Shepard didn't ressurect himself or stop the Collectors on his own. It was a Cerberus funded, supplied, and directed operation. Shepard is just a foot soldier.

I agree that Cerberus has a heavy hand in ME2, mostly due to intel, but portraying Shepard as 'just a foot soldier' isn't correct either. Shepard points this out in the introduction- Cerberus could have raised an army with the resources used to resurrect them, but because Shepard is 'special', TIM views them as necessary to achieve the intended goal. Cerberus resurrected Shepard for, I think, the purpose of being their arm. It just so happens that Shepard's willingness to be manipulated or guided (depending on your POV) is limited. To what oint is up to the player.

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...
All for a worthy cause and much of it produced valuable information and assets.

Overlord is a super weapon that could destroy the geth once and for all. Priceless!

 

That was the dumbest part in that mission for me. 

What exactly is stopping David from doing it all over again? 

Oh wait nothing.  

Renegade: We've gotten nothing useful but let's leave him up there to potentially do this again! That's perfect sense!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:29 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

All for a worthy cause and much of it produced valuable information and assets.

Overlord is a super weapon that could destroy the geth once and for all. Priceless!

The biotic experiments they carried out gave us Jack, who was quite useful on a very dangerous mission if you recall. They also created Gillian, the next stage in human biotics.

The turian leader assassinated was one hostile to humanity, his death is a good thing. The same with any other incompetent politician who gets humanity's way and/or panders to our rivals instead of supporting our needs.

If Cerberus hadn't performed that A.I. research there'd have been no EDI, and without her you'd have never stopped the Collectors. If they hadn't "stolen" the schematics for the Normandy you'd have had no ship.

The destruction of the quarian ship was not the goal, it was means to a much more important goal.

The experiments on the thorian creepers, husks, and rachni were also necessary and good research that had the potential to produce valuable results. Shame they didn't work. That's the risk you take with any kind of research.

I could go on too.

Shepard accomplished more against the heretic geth on Legion's loyalty mission than Cerberus ever did.

As for Jack, I can just say: Samara or Liara. And I have never seen the use of something you can't control, such as Jack and Gillian.

And please enlighten me what was so goddamn important about the experiments on the thorian creepers and rachni. Oh, right. You're just pulling that out of your ass, because there are just potential results at best.

And oooooh, they can build a ship. Whoop-de-****ing-do. Want a medal for it?

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Next time they won't hook him up to a VI that has wide access to the rest of the facility and probably won't allow any geth near it to be armed.

The technology is potent (too potent, which is why there was a problem), but very promising. Any war with the geth can be ended with the press of a button.

David could communicate with them and ultimately control them, but how many and for how long would be a problem. In order to control them, there has to be at least a local intranet network so he can command via a mainframe, and it probably wouldn't be too difficult for David to make the jump to a national, global, or intergalactic system from there.

There's also that sticky moral issue, but that might just be me. I felt sick when I first played through the game and saw David hooked up.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh...right that's totally why TIM overlooks each cell and the report to him yo. Rogue agents? How many operations are gonna go "rogue"? Seems like everytime something bad happens TIM (despite preparing for this by having such a small number of cells active at each time while he personally supervies) somehow is completely ignorant? Riiight. 

TIM overlooked the Suicide Mission aswell.  No amount of planning is going to stop operatives from doing whatever they want to do.  He's not going to drop Cerberus just because someone in his group does something stupid.  He also is not omnipresent and must trust that his operatives report to him.  ME2 proved that they don't always do that.  Being ignorant and being to blame are 2 different things.

Shepard is the exception not the rule. Shepard doesn't tend to listen to anyone. Overlord was due to TIM threatening to shut down if he didn't get results. Oddly suspicious he pushed them so hard and scared them so much that rather than say "well we're making progress." they decide to hook David up to that contraption. 

Actually Mass Effect 2 proves otherwise... Shepard got TIM's personal attention and Shepard was still able to do what he wanted to do.  The limit to TIM's control is clear.  He can give orders and request updates... but neither has to be followed by anyone.  For a job, compliance is expected... but when things go wrong, insubordination is a common reason why.  It was David's brother that was at fault for overlord, no one else... he could've come to a better solution... up to that point they weren't doing anything dangerous.

...Where did I say Cerberus was to blame for that? Oh wait I didn't. <_< Just like they're not to thank for every person Shepard saves of his own violation. 

I just asked you the question of if Cerberus was to blame for it... Naturally you wouldn't be expected to say whether Cerberus was to blame or not until I asked the question.

It just proves the point.  TIM and Cerberus didn't bomb innocent people... Shepard did (if he made that choice). 

Uh...there is no Asari spectre in Arrival. Thats LoTSB. 

And yeah she was going to once Shepard was there. Not to mention she was corrupt and had the backing of the SB. You really think Cerberus is somehow innocent of everything? They were "falsely accused?" Huh. Guess those Cerberus bases Shepard storms in (and Miranda and Jacob acknowledge him being in) were my imagination. 

That's what I was referring to, lol was debating Arrival in another thread.  Yes, LoTSB.

And no, don't stretch things too far... I'm not saying these events vindicate Cerberus of everything.  I'm saying it proves they're not as bad as they're accused of being.

What on EARTH are you talking about? I don't think Arrival was bad. It was a sad necessity. Cerberus on the other hand has no excuse. 

If I told you someone killed 300,000 innocent people, that would not put them in the best light.  When I said that someone is Commander Shepard, it becomes apparent that he's not as evil as he would seem by those actions (even if it was a Renegade Shepard that did it).

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Next time they won't hook him up to a VI that has wide access to the rest of the facility and probably won't allow any geth near it to be armed.

The technology is potent (too potent, which is why there was a problem), but very promising. Any war with the geth can be ended with the press of a button.

Edit:

Of-course a war with anyone else can be ended the same way. Overlord could be used to shut down an entire civilization if necessary.

Theoretically anyway. There may be limits to how much it can do at once seeing as it is ultimately dependent on a physical human/VI interface. It may only have so much "bandwidth" so to speak.

 

Yeah and it has a high probability of blowing up in Cerberus' face. Which it probably will because things tend to blow up in Cerberus' face because they're stupid. Just like the CB probably does. 

Instead of willing recruits they give their enemies mass amounts of power. How...intelligent. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:33 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And yet, he's the one who gets away with the billion credit ship in the end...

Which only proves that Shepard is a ****** and that TIM is very forgiving.

What it doesn't prove is your point that Cerberus is useless. Nothing will because Cerberus isn't useless. If anyone doubted them (I certainly did) they proved their detractors wrong in ME2. When others were unwilling and unable to save humanity from the Collectors Cerberus did.

Shepard just did legwork. Cerberus did all the intel gathering. Any decent leader could have recruited and lead the specialists. None of them but Tali and possibly Garrus actually joined specifically because of Shepard. The rest had ulterior motives or were paid.

Such great intel they had on Liara, Ashley/Kaidan or the Collector ship. Their intel was not only non-existent, it was totally useless.

The VS was promoted. Yeah, I have so much use of that intel. And Liara working for the Shadow Broker is just wrong.

[Ryzaki]

@Gogeta: What...dude are you misreading what I said or are you being obtuse on purpose? 

Cerberus did not have to kill/hurt people. They choose to for power or information. 

Shepard's choices were either kill those 300K batarians, or let the Reapers kill EVERYONE. 

THE TWO ARE NOT COMPARABLE. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:35 .

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I remember struggling not siding with the ghouls in that questline.

Yeah, those jackasses, having the gall to decide who should and shouldn't live in their community.

Zombies should be shot on sight.

And so should wacky dudes who want to blow up Megaton for being in the way.
(I'm not bothering to look up those characters either, you just gotta shoot'um in da head... )