1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

You were given all the intel you needed to complete the mission. What more do you want?

What, you wanted to know the true purpose behind the mission? Well, sorry, you are just a grunt.

What was that? This grunt can't hear you over the sound of the Collector base exploding. I'm just a grunt, after all. It's what I do. The true purpose behind the mission needed the base intact? Well, someone forgot to tell the grunts.

 

Around 60% of the grunts too.  CB exploding > CB radiation animation. Seriously he radiation animation is weak. You don't get the epic BOOOOM you get with the paragon ending. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Technically, ME2 was a Cerberus operation. The Lazarus Project, the Lazarus Cell, the Normandy, the Crew, EDI, the resources, the missions, the dossiers, the Suicide Mission... all could be considered a Cerberus success.

So the Council and alliance is to thank for most of ME1? Since it's due to them that Shepard got the weapons and resources to go after Saren. Even if he had to run away from their lockdown. 

You either blame the organization or you blame the person on the ground that actually did the deed... you can't have it both ways.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Technically, ME2 was a Cerberus operation. The Lazarus Project, the Lazarus Cell, the Normandy, the Crew, EDI, the resources, the missions, the dossiers, the Suicide Mission... all could be considered a Cerberus success.

So the Council and alliance is to thank for most of ME1? Since it's due to them that Shepard got the weapons and resources to go after Saren. Even if he had to run away from their lockdown. 

You either blame the organization or you blame the person on the ground... you can't have it both ways.

 

I'm using *your* logic not mine. As far as I'm considered the person who made both actions happen is Shepard. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Technically, ME2 was a Cerberus operation. The Lazarus Project, the Lazarus Cell, the Normandy, the Crew, EDI, the resources, the missions, the dossiers, the Suicide Mission... all could be considered a Cerberus success.

So the Council and alliance is to thank for most of ME1? Since it's due to them that Shepard got the weapons and resources to go after Saren. Even if he had to run away from their lockdown. 

You either blame the organization or you blame the person on the ground... you can't have it both ways.

 

I'm using *your* logic not mine. As far as I'm considered the person who made both actions happen is Shepard. 

Then you acknowledge that the organization or their leader(s) aren't always to blame for the actions an operative or cell takes. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:57 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Then you acknowledge that the organization or their chiefs aren't always to blame for the actions an operative takes. 

 

Not when said operative isn't being closely watched or intimidated into giving them results. Which is exactly what TIM did.  

And it's not like this is a one time occurance. It happens at least 3 times (Overlord, Teltin, Akuze). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:59 .

[Ieldra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Even if the worst case scenario occurs and that Sovereign is victorious, then the cycle is half broken anyway due to Sovereign's failure to decapitate the leaders of the Council and causing a succession crisis in addition to general confusion.

If Sovereign wins then the relay network goes down. Boom. There is your decapitating strike.

....and not to forget the insignificant little detail that the relay to intergalactic space will be opened and the Reapers will come swarming in.

There's no way around it: saving the DA is gambling with the fate of the galaxy. Given the information we have, destroying Sovereign or at least keeping it from accessing the Citadel controls is the only objective. Everything else is  irrelevant in comparison.

So "Concentrate on Sovereign" is the only strategically valid choice, unless you add additional non-canonical information to justify saving the DA. 

Which is were we come again to the main complaint: that strategic decisions (which are usually Renegade) are never validated if they are in conflict with the immediate good. Validation would necessarily mean that sometimes the risks inherent in the decisions for the immediate good, which the strategic decision specifically aims to avoid, actually come to pass. That never happens. Which means that as far as the narrative is concerned, decisions for the immediate good always appear superior because they get similar results with no significant downsides. That's what I call unrealistic and that's why we're speaking of Paragon favoritism.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Then you acknowledge that the organization or their chiefs aren't always to blame for the actions an operative takes. 

 

Not when said operative isn't being closely watched or intimidated into giving them results. Which is exactly what TIM did. 

Then ME2 is a Cerberus Operation... because TIM did that there as well.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:59 .

[Raiil]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Gogeta: What...dude are you misreading what I said or are you being obtuse on purpose? 

Cerberus did not have to kill/hurt people. They choose to for power or information. 

Shepard's choices were either kill those 300K batarians, or let the Reapers kill EVERYONE. 

THE TWO ARE NOT COMPARABLE. 

You know the reasoning and circumstance for those Cerberus actions... how?  We know Shepard intimately... but not Cerberus.

Cerberus has an infant girl adopted by one of their lackeys, sent to the Alliance, where she can learn to maximise her biotic potential, which includes injecting her secretly with experimental drugs by a man on the inside just to see if they can make her more powerful.

Can you come up with some of benign or altrustic reason for that?


Cerberus later has the girl's adoptive father implanted with reaper technology. Not something done for mere scientific experimentation, particularly since Grayson wasn't doing it willingly.

Cerberus assassinates political leaders who get in their way. Cerberus creates programs that end up with 'failures' like Jack, wherein the program has so little oversight that they're able to get away with it in the first place. Cerberus lets soldiers get nommed on by Thresher Maws and takes a survivor away for experimentation, not therapy.

Cerberus hasn't shown one goal other than a vague 'for humanz!' creed that shows the potential for anything other than information grubbing or power mongering. To be frank, they've made it difficult to give them any sort of benefit of the doubt unless you truly believe that the end always justifies the means.

[Praetor Knight]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Then you acknowledge that the organization or their leader(s) aren't always to blame for the actions an operative or cell takes.

So is there is a disconnect between direct control and delegation of power?

I think, leaders should be held responsible as enablers when power is delegated, IMHO.

[Someone With Mass]

When the Alliance fleet arrives, the Citadel arms are closed, so they can might as well save the DA on the way and wear down the geth resistance. I see no harm in that.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Then ME2 is a Cerberus Operation... because TIM did that there as well.

 

TIM did not pressure Shepard to get results (and Shepard would've laughed in his face if he had) nor did he threaten to "terminate" (which probably includes killing the scientists with how crazy the Overlord people got) the project because Shepard's data wasn't up to snuff and getting him the results he wanted. Shepard also wouldn't have to worry about being killed like the other scientists (which really...why else would they be so freaked out? The operation being canned shouldn't freak them out that much). 

Not to mention what was TIM thinking hiring people who would break under pressure so easily anyway? Miranda seems to be the only capable project lead he had. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 08:05 .

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

When the Alliance fleet arrives, the Citadel arms are closed, so they can might as well save the DA on the way and wear down the geth resistance. I see no harm in that.

 

Not to mention I always found it ridculous that the geth surronding the DA ignore the ships going for Sovereign. Stupid. They should've flanked them (which I was hoping they'd do so the paragon choice felt tactical as well). Sovereign can't be taken out until his shields fall and that wasn't happening until Shepard took out his avatar. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Valentia X wrote...

Cerberus has an infant girl adopted by one of their lackeys, sent to the Alliance, where she can learn to maximise her biotic potential, which includes injecting her secretly with experimental drugs by a man on the inside just to see if they can make her more powerful.

Can you come up with some of benign or altrustic reason for that?

Cerberus later has the girl's adoptive father implanted with reaper technology. Not something done for mere scientific experimentation, particularly since Grayson wasn't doing it willingly.

Cerberus assassinates political leaders who get in their way. Cerberus creates programs that end up with 'failures' like Jack, wherein the program has so little oversight that they're able to get away with it in the first place. Cerberus lets soldiers get nommed on by Thresher Maws and takes a survivor away for experimentation, not therapy.

Cerberus hasn't shown one goal other than a vague 'for humanz!' creed that shows the potential for anything other than information grubbing or power mongering. To be frank, they've made it difficult to give them any sort of benefit of the doubt unless you truly believe that the end always justifies the means.

It's not about me coming up with a reason for their actions.  I didn't come up with the reason Shepard killed 300,000 people either.

Kahlee is similar to the Spartan Project of Halo.  It was rough and I know I personally wouldn't condone it.  The medicine backfiring is morally inconclusive...  because naturally, they aren't trying to kill her and wouldn't willingly give her something that would adversly affect her.  Likewise there's no benefit in doing something that makes her biotically powerful but leaves her unable to use it in a disciplined manner.

Grayson we do know.  TIM wanted to counter Reaper technology and study its effects while simultaneously enacting revenge against Paul Grayson.  It was done for scientific experimentation... but it was also a form of execution.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Someone With Mass wrote...

When the Alliance fleet arrives, the Citadel arms are closed, so they can might as well save the DA on the way and wear down the geth resistance. I see no harm in that.

The relays aren't open either, nothing is availble at that time.  Shepard has to allow for either of those events to happen.  There's also nothing suggesting the location of the relays or the Ascension in relation to the Alliance fleet.

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention I always found it ridculous that the geth surronding the DA ignore the ships going for Sovereign. Stupid. They should've flanked them (which I was hoping they'd do so the paragon choice felt tactical as well). Sovereign can't be taken out until his shields fall and that wasn't happening until Shepard took out his avatar. 

They can't. By the time they've taken out the DA more Council ships have arrived and engaged them in battle. That's what people never understand. The geth can't just turn around and attack the Alliance. The Council fleet is still attacking them.

Even so, if you think the Alliance fleet is vulnerable then you don't know anything about space combat.

Here's a hint: ships can re-orient themselves at will at watch their backs.

Destroying a few geth ships isn't going to help you because in the process you lose ships anyway and gain no actual allies. The DA is too damaged to help and the Council ships are going to stick around to defend the DA, not come and help you.

The narrative makes it clear which choice is the strategic one and any other is just wishful thinking on your part.

Considering space combat (since you didn't bother saying air) is purely fictional me not knowing anything about it isn't that shocking. It's a game.

Hate to burst your bubble but you don't hurt Sovereign either way. Only reason that battle was won was because Sovereign being an idiot. 

Regardless attacking Sovereign is more strategic as you said. You keep a few ships, lose the council, and achieve absolutely nothing. Congrats. 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They can't. By the time they've taken out the DA more Council ships have arrived and engaged them in battle. That's what people never understand. The geth can't just turn around and attack the Alliance. The Council fleet is still attacking them.

Even so, if you think the Alliance fleet is vulnerable then you don't know anything about space combat.

Here's a hint: ships can re-orient themselves at will at watch their backs.

Destroying a few geth ships isn't going to help you because in the process you lose ships anyway and gain no actual allies. The DA is too damaged to help and the Council ships are going to stick around to defend the DA, not come and help you.

The narrative makes it clear which choice is the strategic one and any other is just wishful thinking on your part.

So...where's the harm in cleaning out the geth first if there are Council ships available so soon?

[Luekas]

I always thought of renegade as the comedy option, and it seems like the gameplay and voice actors really go all out whenever Shepard gets to be an ****.

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Luekas, 09 juillet 2011 - 08:17 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
TIM did not pressure Shepard to get results (and Shepard would've laughed in his face if he had) nor did he threaten to "terminate" (which probably includes killing the scientists with how crazy the Overlord people got) the project because Shepard's data wasn't up to snuff and getting him the results he wanted. Shepard also wouldn't have to worry about being killed like the other scientists (which really...why else would they be so freaked out? The operation being canned shouldn't freak them out that much). 

Not to mention what was TIM thinking hiring people who would break under pressure so easily anyway? Miranda seems to be the only capable project lead he had. 

TIM brought Shepard back to life and pressured him with the knowledge of the Reapers, Collectors, and Colony abductions.  To be revived by someone you'd been hunting to help them stop a theat to human beings is a lot of pressure to comply... so much so that Shepard agrees regardless of what Shepard you have.

I also don't stretch the meaning of terminating a project that far... scientists aren't one-track.  If one operation fails, another begins.  It was David's brother that simply didn't want to see that project fail.

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Can you come up with some of benign or altrustic reason for that?

To produce stronger human biotics which are a military asset.

Which is neither benign (having a kindly/favourable disposition) nor altrusitic (without personal gain or to be unselfishly concerned). What is the fundamental difference between drugging a young girl to try to make her a better fighter and stuffing a twelve year old with heroin and handing them a gun to serve in your army?

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Cerberus later has the girl's adoptive father implanted with reaper technology. Not something done for mere scientific experimentation, particularly since Grayson wasn't doing it willingly.

Are you serious? Experimentation is precisely why it was done. Grayson was chosen for vindictive reasons, yes, but the experiment itself was separate from that. Injecting the technology gave Cerberus the chance to observe Reaper tech in action, to try and figure out how it works, and if it could be circumvented.

The ability to block Reaper transmissions to their minions would be useful, would it not?

The experiment also gave us a taste of what the Reapers are capable of so that we can plan accordingly.

If you don't think the pro-human agenda is justified then no defense I or Cerberus offer will ever be good enough.

If it had been for mere scientific experimentation, vindictiveness would never have come into play. Cerberus has the funds and a charismatic enough leader where someone could have been paid or voluenteered to undergo said experimentation themslves. Choosing Grayson for this was punishment in the guise of science.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Then you acknowledge that the organization or their leader(s) aren't always to blame for the actions an operative or cell takes.

So is there is a disconnect between direct control and delegation of power?

I think, leaders should be held responsible as enablers when power is delegated, IMHO.

I agree that leaders can be held responsible... but I don't believe in the double standard in views between Shepard and operators for Cerberus.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They AREN'T available!

If you don't save the Council then those ships are busy fighting the geth that killed the DA. If you do save the Council then those ships are busy escorting the DA to safety.

In the meantime you've lost several ships, hurting your chances against Sovereign.

Oh, yeah, because three more ships or so are going to tip the balance against the dreadnought that can withstand fire from the whole Arcturus fleet and waste about five of them in about just as many seconds.