1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
TIM brought Shepard back to life and pressured him with the knowledge of the Reapers, Collectors, and Colony abductions.  To be revived by someone you'd been hunting to help them stop a theat to human beings is a lot of pressure to comply... so much so that Shepard agrees regardless of what Shepard you have.

I also don't stretch the meaning of terminating a project that far... scientists aren't one-track.  If one operation fails, another begins.  It was David's brother that simply didn't want to see that project fail.

 

I didn't get the implication that Shepard was being threatened.He/she just wanted to check it out and see if Cerberus was legit. (Thus the whole *maybe* I believe you let me see) bit. Shepard agrees regardless because Shepard's holding the biggest idiot ball in the galaxy. The same reason he/she doesn't take out Miranda and Jacob and try to reach the council as soon as possible. They would've gotten an "ah yes 'reapers." and a lot of the game would've made more sense. 

I do. The fear is too wide reaching. If not murder I have a feeling he wrecks their carreer and lives. They also don't feel comfortable enough with him to tell him why they're failing. That's not a good sign. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If the series ended with ME1, the ending was quite fair. ME2 somewhat retconned the first game into favoring the Paragon choice.

[Ieldra]

Saphra Deden wrote...
The narrative makes it clear which choice is the strategic one and any other is just wishful thinking on your part.

Exactly. So much so that in my first game of ME1, when the decision came up I thought it quite possible that we'd get a game over screen after choosing to save the Council. 

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

They AREN'T available!

If you don't save the Council then those ships are busy fighting the geth that killed the DA. If you do save the Council then those ships are busy escorting the DA to safety.

In the meantime you've lost several ships, hurting your chances against Sovereign.

Oh, yeah, because three more ships or so are going to tip the balance against the dreadnought that can withstand fire from the whole Arcturus fleet and waste about five of them in about just as many seconds.

I think it was eight. 

But the point still stands. 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
The biotic is a lot more useful.

That's funny, because based of what I've read, Kai Leng, a highly trained Cerberus assassin managed to do more controlled damage than any biotic I've seen.

By the way. Flashbangs. Punch to the face. Lack of energy.

Completely neutralizes the bioitc.

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
The biotic is a lot more useful.

That's funny, because based of what I've read, Kai Leng, a highly trained Cerberus assassin managed to do more controlled damage than any biotic I've seen.

By the way. Flashbangs. Punch to the face. Lack of energy.

Completely neutralizes the bioitc.

Let's not mention said biotic isn't much use if he/she wants to tear out your spine. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
I didn't get the implication that Shepard was being threatened.He/she just wanted to check it out and see if Cerberus was legit. (Thus the whole *maybe* I believe you let me see) bit. Shepard agrees regardless because Shepard's holding the biggest idiot ball in the galaxy. The same reason he/she doesn't take out Miranda and Jacob and try to reach the council as soon as possible. They would've gotten an "ah yes 'reapers." and a lot of the game would've made more sense. 

I do. The fear is too wide reaching. If not murder I have a feeling he wrecks their carreer and lives. They also don't feel comfortable enough with him to tell him why they're failing. That's not a good sign. 

The Reapers were the threatening thing that TIM was using to get Shepard's cooperation. 

For Overlord, Cerberus has a reputation, and a lot of money was poured into the project... but we also know that TIM does not dispose of "assets" that can be used somewhere else.  The scientist never said anything like "TIM will kill me if this doesn't work"

He was simply an obsessed scientist that wanted to make it work.

[Praetor Knight]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So is there is a disconnect between direct control and delegation of power?

I think, leaders should be held responsible as enablers when power is delegated, IMHO.

I agree that leaders can be held responsible... but I don't believe in the double standard in views between Shepard and operators for Cerberus.

With favoritism there is a slippery slope, but if the actions of operatives are weighed on a case by case basis; Shepard still looks pretty good on average, compared to the performance of other operatives.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
The Reapers were the threatening thing that TIM was using to get Shepard's cooperation.  

For Overlord, Cerberus has a reputation, and a lot of money was poured into the project... but we also know that TIM does not dispose of "assets" that can be used somewhere else.  The scientist never said anything like "TIM will kill me if this doesn't work"

He was simply an obsessed scientist that wanted to make it work.

 

But they weren't engineered by TIM. They can't be stopped by TIM. They're coming regardless. That's why I don't consider it similar to the Overlord incident. Their fears were planted by TIM. It wasn't some outside force. 

He doesn't have to. The sheer fear was enough. Why be so scared? Look at Teltin more fear about failing TIM. Why would two totally different sectors both manage to hide their dealings with TIM and be scared enough of his reliation to go to extreme measures if all he was gonna do would be shut them down? Why would the Teltin people go so far unless they were concerned about TIM not getting results? 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

 They just might. You don't know for certain so why take that gamble? You know how what's at stake so how do you justify it?

Now who's grasping for straws?

It's not a gamble. The rest of the ships could just increase their rate of fire or switch tacticts or shoot for a whooping ten seconds longer to make up for it. And as I said, Sovereign made sure it didn't really matter, because their numbers decreased to the point that they were fewer than what they entered the Citadel with, regardless of the state of the DA.

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That would only be an issue if Cerberus was attempting to create these powerful biotics to be their own personal soldiers. They aren't.

Cerberus wouldn't mind having them but the focus is on increasing human military strength. Thus we can gather that any biotic developments created by Cerberus would eventually be passed on to the Systems Alliance.

 

Right rogue biotics that are criminals, on the run hunting down Cerberus is totally helping the human military. 

...wait what?  All the experiments they're running could be *gasp* done on willing participants!

But that's too difficult apparently. Not to mention their "successes" have issues (Jack is dying and I'm pretty sure they'll be something wrong with Gillian). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 08:29 .

[Raiil]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Cerberus has an infant girl adopted by one of their lackeys, sent to the Alliance, where she can learn to maximise her biotic potential, which includes injecting her secretly with experimental drugs by a man on the inside just to see if they can make her more powerful.

Can you come up with some of benign or altrustic reason for that?

Cerberus later has the girl's adoptive father implanted with reaper technology. Not something done for mere scientific experimentation, particularly since Grayson wasn't doing it willingly.

Cerberus assassinates political leaders who get in their way. Cerberus creates programs that end up with 'failures' like Jack, wherein the program has so little oversight that they're able to get away with it in the first place. Cerberus lets soldiers get nommed on by Thresher Maws and takes a survivor away for experimentation, not therapy.

Cerberus hasn't shown one goal other than a vague 'for humanz!' creed that shows the potential for anything other than information grubbing or power mongering. To be frank, they've made it difficult to give them any sort of benefit of the doubt unless you truly believe that the end always justifies the means.

It's not about me coming up with a reason for their actions.  I didn't come up with the reason Shepard killed 300,000 people either.

Kahlee is similar to the Spartan Project of Halo.  It was rough and I know I personally wouldn't condone it.  The medicine backfiring is morally inconclusive...  because naturally, they aren't trying to kill her and wouldn't willingly give her something that would adversly affect her.  Likewise there's no benefit in doing something that makes her biotically powerful but leaves her unable to use it in a disciplined manner.

Grayson we do know.  TIM wanted to counter Reaper technology and study its effects while simultaneously enacting revenge against Paul Grayson.  It was done for scientific experimentation... but it was also a form of execution.

Shepard is sent out on a mission with minimal data, jumped by indoctrinated soldiers, and drugged into unconscienesses for two days- in which time Shepard could have, except that by being knocked out, they're forced into a zero approval gambit. After waking up, they have to fight their way to the front, usually with minutes to spare. Shepard did not set up the system, the scenario, or the end game- hell, you can try to get the colonies evacuated, and it's just s--tty luck that the message doesn't get through. 

Shepard didn't set out to kill off an entire colony of people. The situation was set up to fail.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
I didn't get the implication that Shepard was being threatened.He/she just wanted to check it out and see if Cerberus was legit. (Thus the whole *maybe* I believe you let me see) bit. Shepard agrees regardless because Shepard's holding the biggest idiot ball in the galaxy. The same reason he/she doesn't take out Miranda and Jacob and try to reach the council as soon as possible. They would've gotten an "ah yes 'reapers." and a lot of the game would've made more sense.

I don't agree. Why shouldn't he check Cerberus out first? He gives them the chance and agrees to the Freedom's Progress mission. After that, you're free to go to the Council and collect your "Ah yes, Reapers" reply. The game still makes sense.

And why the hell should he take out Miranda and Jacob? "We're Cerberus" should not be not be enough for such a reaction for anyone with the least bit of curiosity about why they brought him back (and how, but of course we don't get to ask that). As opposed to your claim, taking them out immediately would have made him appear stupid. 

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't agree. Why shouldn't he check Cerberus out first? He gives them the chance and agrees to the Freedom's Progress mission. After that, you're free to go to the Council and collect your "Ah yes, Reapers" reply. The game still makes sense.

And why the hell should he take out Miranda and Jacob? "We're Cerberus" should not be not be enough for such a reaction for anyone with the least bit of curiosity about why they brought him back (and how, but of course we don't get to ask that). As opposed to your claim, taking them out immediately would have made him appear stupid. 

Maybe because they're a terrorist group and he doesn't trust them? I see why your Shep would stay butmine would leave. He has no reason to trust them. 

The game doesn't make sense to me. He just ups and goes "yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and trust you for no reason despite having plenty of reason not to trust you lot as far as I can throw you." 

Because they have his body in some secret facility. He has no idea if they implanted some kind of control device in his brain or trying to build him into some super soldier. Hell my Shepard at that point wasn't even sure he was him. And yes it would be enough for my SHep that had to deal with akuze to shoot them in the head. 

Maybe it would've to you. Him going along with them like all is fine and dandy is stupid to me. 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That would only be an issue if Cerberus was attempting to create these powerful biotics to be their own personal soldiers. They aren't.

They weren't? Yeah. Go ahead and believe that. You are really naive if you think Cerberus would give up a advantage they have over the Alliance, to the Alliance.

[Raiil]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]Valentia X wrote...

 What is the fundamental difference between drugging a young girl to try to make her a better fighter and stuffing a twelve year old with heroin and handing them a gun to serve in your army?[/quote]

The biotic is a lot more useful.[/quote][/quote]

Context. We don't have biotics IRL, but we do have a surplus of children in poverty stricken areas who can be drugged up and used as cannon fodder. It's manipulation of those whom we have deemed to be off-limited for warfare. You, personally, may think it's acceptable, but society in general has not. And no society except for the krogan in-game seems to be okay with children fighting, and even the krogan don't pump their kids full of drugs first.


[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
[quote]Valentia X wrote...

If it had been for mere scientific experimentation, vindictiveness would never have come into play.

[/quote]

TIM made a mistake and he was the first to admit it when it became evident. Regardless, revenge was not the point of the experiment. It would have been carried out regardless and either way it would have ended without incidente if the turians hadn't intervened.

[/quote]

Revenge tainted it. I'll be the first to say that if it had been done willingly, I wouldn't have mentioned it because I take no exception with people who choose to be experimented on/be a part of medical/scientific continuation, provided they are able and willing to sign a consent form (or the ME version thereof). By using Grayson in a vindictive manner, he made it unethical. He can apologise for it, but that doesn't change the fact that he was willing to do so in the first place.

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote..
Remember that time Jack joined a mission to stop the Collectors? That served humanity.

 

Remember that time where Shepard had to be the one to calm her down? Yeah. Let's see Cerberus do that on their own. Jack stays because Shepard's a godmode sue or eventually won her trust. It had squat to do with Cerberus. Especially considering the most pro Cerberus person (Miranda) is the one she's most openly hostile towards. 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Remember that time Jack joined a mission to stop the Collectors? That served humanity.

And what was she doing before that? Oh yeah, she was was locked inside a cryo-stasis chamber because of a lot of crimes she commited.

[Praetor Knight]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They weren't? Yeah. Go ahead and believe that. You are really naive if you think Cerberus would give up a advantage they have over the Alliance, to the Alliance.

Unless they really are connected.
Oh darn conspiracy theories.