1768 réponses à ce sujet

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Yeah, let's kill off the three leaders of the races that might be able to help us in the future when it comes to political decisions and such. That's smart.

If Sovereign wins you won't have to worry about that because there will be no future.

 I play Paragon but I always take the neutral (arguably Renegade) option of 'we have to focus on Sovereign'. I get that people would have complained if the Reapers had returned in a 'Game Over' screen if you focused on the Council, it seems the more fitting one

 To me, the choice was less one of 'galactic unity' vs 'humanity' but more one of 'possibly stopping that Reapers' vs 'Everyone, including the Council and everyone they represent, dying'.. in this instance

[Aimi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

daqs wrote...

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.  If I had to guess, I'd say that you seem to think that "saving the Council" and "destroying Sovereign" are mutually exclusive goals.

They are to someone who doesn't already know the outcome. Without meta-gaming Shepard doesn't know what will happen. All he knows is that saving the DA is risky because it might leave the fleet too weak to take Sovereign down. If that happens then the Reapers come through and all sentient life is extinguished.

That should have been obvious though.

Doesn't that argument hinge on the obviously false premise that the geth ships that are attacking the Destiny Ascension won't do anything about the Fifth Fleet popping up even after the Council is dead?  One way or another, that geth armada has to be destroyed to concentrate on Sovereign.  So what's the tactical advantage of doing it later, when you're caught between Sovereign and the geth, as opposed to earlier, when you can take out the geth that are absorbed in fighting the Destiny Ascension and then have a clear and undisturbed shot at fighting Sovereign?

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Really a 50K ship isn't gonna march in with a few ships at its head unless it has an ace of its sleeve.

Those few ships was an entire geth fleet, enough to devastate the Council fleet. Sovereign killed how many Council ships during the invasion of the Citadel? 3-4? Everything else was the Geth, which devastated the Council fleet and left them in a position weak enough that humans had the superior military might afterward.

 

The geth don't matter to saving the galaxy. Sovereign does. It doesn't mean squat if Shepard destroys all the geth he/she is screwed is Sovereign remains standing (which it would). 

Sovereign only killed that small amount because it was focused on trying to get it's buddies onto the playing field. 

And it still begs the question with all those geth why is focusing on Sovereign remotely intelligent. It should be eliminate all the geth since Sovereign wasn't being hurt by the gunfire.  Focusing on Sovereign is just as stupid as saving the council the the scenario you gave me. Sovereign shouldn't be attacked until it does it's flailing in the air act. The geth that destroy the DA just what? Decide to twiddle their thumbs? They should've attacked the alliance right after they were done. (Said alliance which is aiming all their gunfire at the unharmable ship). "Yes let's ignore the army attacking us and harm the unharmable one! That's logical!" 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:21 .

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

What if the Geth ships which you failed to destroy prevent you from defeating Sovereign?

They won't because they'll be too busy fighting the Council fleet.

That's the point. Let the DA die and let the Citadel fleet soak up all the casualities.

A fight of attrition against a Cthuthu avatar-in-the-flesh?

What if Alliance ships were inferior to the other Citadel fleets?

[TobyHasEyes]

daqs wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

daqs wrote...

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.  If I had to guess, I'd say that you seem to think that "saving the Council" and "destroying Sovereign" are mutually exclusive goals.

They are to someone who doesn't already know the outcome. Without meta-gaming Shepard doesn't know what will happen. All he knows is that saving the DA is risky because it might leave the fleet too weak to take Sovereign down. If that happens then the Reapers come through and all sentient life is extinguished.

That should have been obvious though.

Doesn't that argument hinge on the obviously false premise that the geth ships that are attacking the Destiny Ascension won't do anything about the Fifth Fleet popping up even after the Council is dead?  One way or another, that geth armada has to be destroyed to concentrate on Sovereign.  So what's the tactical advantage of doing it later, when you're caught between Sovereign and the geth, as opposed to earlier, when you can take out the geth that are absorbed in fighting the Destiny Ascension and then have a clear and undisturbed shot at fighting Sovereign?

 The benefit of doing it later is that, at the moment Sovereign is busy attaching himself to the Citadel and bringing back the Reapers. There's a time limit implied there, and as such stopping Sovereign has to be top AND first priority

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Let's risk destroying the entire galaxy to save three political figures that would mean absolutely nothing if the galaxy is destroyed. That's smart too!

Again, the Citadel arms were closed and they destroyed the geth within seconds. No problem

And I highly doubt the fate of the galaxy rested on those three-four ships. But, weak arguments are weak, so...

[Ryzaki]

I love how Sovvie's just cruising. 

Though awesome! That totally proves my genre savvy Shep right. No one was harming it. So why bother until it's weak spot is revealed? I love my Genre Savvy Shep. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:25 .

[Aimi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They won't because they'll be too busy fighting the Council fleet.

That's the point. Let the DA die and let the Citadel fleet soak up all the casualities.

Makes no sense from a military theory point of view.  Added forces are synergistic.  Invariably, playing like that - nonsynergistic, disunited action on divergent lines - inflicts more total casualties than would have been suffered otherwise.  Which rather neatly explains the only reason to "concentrate on Sovereign" instead of saving the Council: forcing the Council fleets to "soak up" those casualties.

[Aimi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

daqs wrote...

Doesn't that argument hinge on the obviously false premise that the geth ships that are attacking the Destiny Ascension won't do anything about the Fifth Fleet popping up even after the Council is dead?

It isn't false. They won't do anything because even as the DA dies more Citadel ships arrive and attack those geth. Those ships were trying to save the DA but couldn't get there fast enough.

So you're deploying the same argument you earlier said was not applicable.  Why would Shepard have known that beforehand?  Metagamer! <_<

Modifié par daqs, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:26 .

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

But, weak arguments are weak, so...

You're hilarious. 

Now go away if you're just going to be an ass like you always do.

[Barquiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

daqs wrote...

Doesn't that argument hinge on the obviously false premise that the geth ships that are attacking the Destiny Ascension won't do anything about the Fifth Fleet popping up even after the Council is dead?

It isn't false. They won't do anything because even as the DA dies more Citadel ships arrive and attack those geth. Those ships were trying to save the DA but couldn't get there fast enough.

And the citadel ships can assist the alliance if the geth are destroyed. no firepower lost

[Babli]

Paragon choices are too naive imo. I think some of them should be punished. Hard. Same for renegade. The best ending would be combination of half paragon and half renegade choices.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
It isn't false. They won't do anything because even as the DA dies more Citadel ships arrive and attack those geth. Those ships were trying to save the DA but couldn't get there fast enough.

And what stops them from going for Sovereign while the Alliance handles the geth if we're talking about seconds?

Oh, because Sovereign can apparently activate the relay the nanosecond he connects, even if Vigil's data file gave Shepard access to all systems, and that means we must hurry.

[TobyHasEyes]

daqs wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

They won't because they'll be too busy fighting the Council fleet.

That's the point. Let the DA die and let the Citadel fleet soak up all the casualities.

Makes no sense from a military theory point of view.  Added forces are synergistic.  Invariably, playing like that - nonsynergistic, disunited action on divergent lines - inflicts more total casualties than would have been suffered otherwise.  Which rather neatly explains the only reason to "concentrate on Sovereign" instead of saving the Council: forcing the Council fleets to "soak up" those casualties.

 That argument wouldn't hold in a military standpoint if one of the forces was about to set off a megaweapon which would destroy the Earth (assuming we take this example to the present). The commander wouldn't go "well added forces are synergistic, so rather than attack the guy setting up the explosive right now we are gonna go help our allies over there.."

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:28 .

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote... 

And it still begs the question with all those geth why is focusing on Sovereign remotely intelligent. It should be eliminate all the geth since Sovereign wasn't being hurt by the gunfire. 

Because nobody knows it can't be hurt by gunfire? Every ship has shields, after a lot of sustained damage the shields go away and the ship itself takes damage. How do they know Sovereign's shields are impenetrable? How does Shepard know that? How does anybody know that?

Sovereign shouldn't be attacked until it does it's flailing in the air act.

1. Nobody knows it's going to do it's flailing act, it's something that happens after Shepard gives the call and kills Sovereign's avatar.
2. Sovereign is trying to access the Citadel, ignoring him while he's trying to bring back the Reaper fleet isn't the best idea.

The geth that destroy the DA just what? Decide to twiddle their thumbs? They should've attacked the alliance right after they were done. (Said alliance which is aiming all their gunfire at the unharmable ship). "Yes let's ignore the army attacking us and harm the unharmable one! That's logical!" 

Focus the remnants of the Council fleet, which it does regardless of your decision.

[Praetor Knight]

Babli wrote...

Paragon choices are too naive imo. I think some of them should be punished. Hard. Same for renegade. The best ending would be combination of half paragon and half renegade choices.

Some are, but I remember one with Archer in Overlord, off the top of my head.

And beating the reapers should not hinge on karma, I hope.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

But, weak arguments are weak, so...

You're hilarious. 

Now go away if you're just going to be an ass like you always do.

No, really. You guys makes it sound like the fate of the galaxy rests on those three ships. Which I highly doubt.

[Aimi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

daqs wrote...

Makes no sense from a military theory point of view.  Added forces are synergistic.  Invariably, playing like that - nonsynergistic, disunited action on divergent lines - inflicts more total casualties

Which is acceptable. The goal is to stop Sovereign, not minimize casualties.

If Vigil's data file worked - and, hey, Shepard says that it did, before she even opens a communications channel - Sovereign has been stopped.  Mission has ceased to be time-critical.

Modifié par daqs, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:28 .

[Dave of Canada]

daqs wrote...

If Vigil's data file worked - and, hey, Shepard says that it did, before she even opens a communications channel -Sovereign has been stopped.  Mission has ceased to be time-critical.

And he's going through Vigil's data file, trying to gain access to the station. Everybody in the game says it. As soon as he does, the Reaper fleet comes in and it's the end. Sovereign wasn't sitting there doing nothing.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:29 .

[Praetor Knight]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 That argument wouldn't hold in a military standpoint if one of the forces was about to set off a megaweapon which would destroy the Earth (assuming we take this example to the present). The commander wouldn't go "well added forces are synergistic, so rather than attack the guy setting up the explosive right now we are gonna go help our allies over there.."

Fortunately that scenario was not playing out in the Battle of the Citadel.

Shepard needed to expose the guy setting up the explosive first, to then take that guy out with concentrated fire.