1768 réponses à ce sujet

[TobyHasEyes]

nhsk wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Really? I would say red associated with danger and aggression. Blue is associated more with serenity.

Green and say Orange / Yellow would have done that job as well.

It is just that every FPS game usually depicts the opposing team as "red" and you are "blue"
In the cold war it was really "blue vs. red" or "NATO (blue...) versus the evil empire as Reagan said it, USSR (red).

It is deep in our western world mentality that red is evil.

And yes it's a BS morality system. I often find myself caught in the colours and I have personally have a problem playing a renegade as I associate renegade with evil, it worked much better for me in DA:O being renegade.

Edit: quotation (removed beginning of pyramid)

 Speak for yourself, not the entire Western world shares the US fear of the Red under the Bed 

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Let's risk destroying the entire galaxy to save three political figures that would mean absolutely nothing if the galaxy is destroyed. That's smart too!

Again, the Citadel arms were closed and they destroyed the geth within seconds. No problem

And I highly doubt the fate of the galaxy rested on those three-four ships. But, weak arguments are weak, so...

...I can't help it. 

But why was that ship stupid enough to stay in the way? One would think you'd move *away* from the fast approaching mecha chutlu. 

[Yezdigerd]

One interpretation of what Hackett says is that the DA engaged and damaged Sovy on the way in before it got destroyed in the renegade playthrough.

[nhsk]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Speak for yourself, not the entire Western world shares the US fear of the Red under the Bed 

I'm danish, one of the most socialist countries in the free world. With free hospitals paid over taxes, free education paid over taxes etc. etc. and still having a democratic elected parliament and prime minister.

And a quick search on the internet will reveal I'm not only speaking for myself, although the "blue = calm" and "red = fiery chaos" is also represented it seems to be in the minority. I would provide links but I am not sure I may link to other forums here.

Oh and media, "red lightsaber.. vs. blue and green mostly"
And US fearing the color red no, but during the cold war it was certainly the "red danger" - I know you have red in the flag, but you had that since the revolution and it doesn't stand alone but together with white, blue and the gold stars to break up red vs. the Soviet Union flag and the Chinese flag.

Modifié par nhsk, 09 juillet 2011 - 10:17 .

[Praetor Knight]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 What I am saying is that when every second may count, the first option would be bigger risk

Any choice involves risk, my main focus though is on the problem that the ships need to wait for the Citadel arms to open so that they can hit Sovereign in the first place.

So the ships can either wait for the arms to open or do something to occupy their time until they do open, which in this case feels like a matter of moments.



Either way the ships strike at Sovereign the first chance they get, the only real difference in the Battle of the Citadel is if those Alliance ships helped out before the arms opened or not, IMHO.

[Lumikki]

nhsk wrote...

To try to answer the orignal question I think the common misconception about Paragon / Renegade is the choice of colours BW went with.

Blue is associated with good.
Red is associated with evil.

I think it gets into many peoples minds that "blue" or "good" should win a major victory all the time.

I wonder if the colours would have been reversed if it was a chinese game.

Why? I never thinked that any color means WIN. Where to you people get this kind of silly ideas?

I also don't consider renegade as evil. I consider renegade more like ruthless and aggressive.
Paragon I do assosiate as good guy, because it's so compassioned based path.
This isn't about good vs evil. Because Evil in this game are the enemy, reapers. (even they aren't really evil)
Paragon, neutral and renegade are just different attitude paths to goal (WIN) as how to deal situations, that's all.

Modifié par Lumikki, 09 juillet 2011 - 10:19 .

[Ryzaki]

I will lol so hard if for people who killed the council the alien races do the same thing. They just sit and watch Earth's ships get destroyed and only attack the Reapers when they get too close to harming the alien ships. "you don't stick out your neck for us why should we stick ours out for you?" 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 10:18 .

[nhsk]

Lumikki wrote...

Why? I never thinked that any color means WIN. Where to you people get this kind of silly ideas?

I also don't consider renegade as evil. I consider renegade more like ruthless and aggressive.
Paragon I do assosiate as good guy, because it's so compassioned based path.
This isn't about good vs evil. Because Evil in this game are the enemy, reapers. (even they aren't really evil)
Paragon, neutral and renegade are just different attitude paths to goal (WIN), that's all.

Yes that is how it is supposed to be like, I agree, but I still think human conceptions win out and the game would have been better without the paragon/renegade morality points or at least in different colours. Maybe it is subliminal, I don't know.

[Ryzaki]

You actually think a renegade's gonna control the citadel? Let's see how well that works for you.

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Either way the ships strike at Sovereign the first chance they get, the only real difference in the Battle of the Citadel is if those Alliance ships helped out before the arms opened or not, IMHO.

If they helped out then there are fewer of them.

Well, I dunno.

Here's the Codex for both Paragon and Renegade on the Battle of the Citadel: http://masseffect.wi..._of_the_Citadel

Edit: link shall linketh...

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 09 juillet 2011 - 10:23 .

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You actually think a renegade's gonna control the citadel? Let's see how well that works for you.

It's worked out fine so far.

 

Sure it has. 

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Speak for yourself, not the entire Western world shares the US fear of the Red under the Bed 

The US doesn't fear the color red. We have it on our flag for Christ's sake. It's on a lot of other things.

Red and yellow and other colors, especially when seen together, signify danger to humans. That's universal across many cultures. It comes from the natural world. Look at bees, wasps, other insects, arachnids, fish, birds, plants, ect... red, black, orange, ect often say "I'm poisonus!" or "I'm bitter" or "I'm dangerous!"

Blue is seen as nicer because it is not generally seen on such animals. It is also the color of water (necessary for life) and the sky (when it is clear and peaceful) so it's not surprising that we associate blue with more positive emotions.

Green and purple might have been better colors for Paragon/Renegade.

 In our closer evolutionary cousins, red is a colour highlighting sexual desire etc.

 What I was objecting to was the use of Cold War references to suggest why red is viewed the way it is in the Western world, rather than the idea that it as a colour has various connotations

 Furthermore I do also object to the idea that the associations of those colours significantly affects how we view Paragon and Renegade.. I think the names 'Paragon' and 'Renegade' probably have more of an impact than the colours

[nhsk]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 In our closer evolutionary cousins, red is a colour highlighting sexual desire etc.

 What I was objecting to was the use of Cold War references to suggest why red is viewed the way it is in the Western world, rather than the idea that it as a colour has various connotations

 Furthermore I do also object to the idea that the associations of those colours significantly affects how we view Paragon and Renegade.. I think the names 'Paragon' and 'Renegade' probably have more of an impact than the colours

You don't need closer evolutionary cousins for red to highlight sexual desire, you have a better chance to score if you wear a bit of red, example a tie for a male, or in a red dress as female. But OT..

You have a point with naming, renegade is close to rogue (but that may be my understanding, as a non native English speaker, who doesn't know the finer interpretations of the two words. But I still think the colour choice worsens the impact.

[TobyHasEyes]

Luc0s wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The rachni choice is a great example. Unless you choose very specific dialogue options Shepard is very aggressive and even vindictive when he kills the queen. Unfortunately to get the none mean dialogue you have to have Shepard waffle a bit on the choice.

Wait, so there is a non-mean way of telling the rachni queen that you're killing her for the greater good? Because last-time I tried to play a renegade Shepard that isn't a jerk but actually carefully thinks about his choices and honestly beliefs that killing the rachni queen is the best thing to do, but when I said "Shup up and die! And this time, stay death!" I was like... Well, it was a really hard decision for me as a player to kill the rachni queen, but Shepard made it all look so easy, as if he enjoyed killing the rachni queen. I didn't like it how Shepard behaved when I decided to kill the rachni queen.

 I too would like to know the non-jerk dialogue way of delivering a death sentence to the Rachni queen

[Arppis]

Ryzaki wrote...

...I can't help it. 

But why was that ship stupid enough to stay in the way? One would think you'd move *away* from the fast approaching mecha chutlu. 

You do see that it's moving away from it's path, right? But it's a big ship.

[Arijharn]

Ryzaki wrote...

I will lol so hard if for people who killed the council the alien races do the same thing. They just sit and watch Earth's ships get destroyed and only attack the Reapers when they get too close to harming the alien ships. "you don't stick out your neck for us why should we stick ours out for you?" 

We both know that wont happen, because neither philosophy will screw the player that much. For the most part; I can't stand the 'big choice' Paragon choices because I honestly think they're for the most part naive idealism, so this is a good thing for me. Especially if current trends hold true with Renegade's being, amusingly enough, the red-headed bastard step-child of the two philosophies.

Here's more contention to throw onto the fire though; every single success that Shephard has during the course of ME2 can eventually be laid at Cerberus' feet. Why? Because every action that Shephard makes was ultimately guided and orchestrated by the TIM (go here; collect this person; here's some intel). Crying freedom of action is laudable but an illusion, because Cerberus for the most part supplied your entire operation, whether it be information or materials.

Hell, the the Illusive Man is obviously a master manipulator; since most paragons will scream till their blue in the face that everything was their own doing (and yeah; sure, you were the one holding the controller or keyboard/mouse) but lets face it; you've been doing his bidding for the most part ever since he dangled the proverbial carrot in your face and said: "It must be the Reapers!"

If people insist on saying that things like Teltin and Overlord were products of Cerberus as a whole, then by the same token all actions undertaken by Shephard must also belong to Cerberus. Cerberus may not have officially 'signed up', but he was performing essentially as a contractor (and not an independent contractor either; since (s)he still had to make do with Cerberus resources).

Hell, I think it's even possible for Cerberus to spin the decision to blow the CB up into some good 'PR' move for the organisation in some ways. 

[The_11thDoctor]

Paulinius wrote...

There should be both paragon and renegade options that help you and screw you over.

I agree. Renegade was never defined properly and I never got why you always got punished for renegade actions. Sometimes your not in the mood to listen to a 10 min speech and you are SHEPARD. You shouldnt have to take everything just to be a good guy. Or just like the keeping the Reaper tech. You should maybe get an advantage that you cant as a good guy and maybe end the war quicker. Maybe it backfires on you depending on your decision in ME3 or works to your advantage and in the long run keeping it was the better decision, but not giving it to the I.M. I want Renegade to have a win ending as well. It might involve more casualties, but if the galaxy is safe, why not, sort of thing?

[Pharos]

Arijharn wrote...

Here's more contention to throw onto the fire though; every single success that Shephard has during the course of ME2 can eventually be laid at Cerberus' feet. Why? Because every action that Shephard makes was ultimately guided and orchestrated by the TIM (go here; collect this person; here's some intel). Crying freedom of action is laudable but an illusion, because Cerberus for the most part supplied your entire operation, whether it be information or materials.

Hell, the the Illusive Man is obviously a master manipulator; since most paragons will scream till their blue in the face that everything was their own doing (and yeah; sure, you were the one holding the controller or keyboard/mouse) but lets face it; you've been doing his bidding for the most part ever since he dangled the proverbial carrot in your face and said: "It must be the Reapers!"

If people insist on saying that things like Teltin and Overlord were products of Cerberus as a whole, then by the same token all actions undertaken by Shephard must also belong to Cerberus. Cerberus may not have officially 'signed up', but he was performing essentially as a contractor (and not an independent contractor either; since (s)he still had to make do with Cerberus resources).

Hell, I think it's even possible for Cerberus to spin the decision to blow the CB up into some good 'PR' move for the organisation in some ways. 

Teltin and Overlord are products of Cerberus' mindset...depending on how you play the game Shep's actions throughout the events of ME2 are completely contrary to that mindset. Who get's the medals/recognition in a war? The officers and soldiers who fight it or the Government who pays them? Cerberus may get a handful of kudos for funding a paragon Shepard but no one is going to believe the change in MO is anything else but Shep's influence through his control of the operational side of the mission.

[Ryzaki]

Arppis wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...I can't help it. 

But why was that ship stupid enough to stay in the way? One would think you'd move *away* from the fast approaching mecha chutlu. 

You do see that it's moving away from it's path, right? But it's a big ship.

 

That's some awfully slow moving.