1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

More fuel for this fire, an interview with Casey Hudson about how he plays Mass Effect:

Q: What save file are you loading up when you start Mass Effect 2 at home, Paragon or Renegade?


Casey Hudsson: Me personally? I end up playing characters that are on the fence between the two styles. I do mostly tend toward the paragon decisions for the more epic choices, even though some of the Renegade choices are more natural in one-on-one situation.


Things are starting to make more sense now as to why such favoritism exists... and also explains why there's more of a balance between Renegades and Paragons during the non-critical portions of the game.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 01:35 .

[mauro2222]

Arijharn wrote...

Honestly; I think goodwill only gets you so far in international politics, and I can't imagine that being in any situation more so than some sort of extinction level event.

Whoo!! What a poor imagination I must say xD

[Blitzkrieg0811]

As much as I would love to see the inconceivable levels of butthurt from the renegade/renegon players as a result of such a biased plot, I don't think it'd be fair to screw over literally half of all playthroughs. There definitely should be more squadmate/humanitarian casualties for hardcore renegade playthroughs, but only to a point.

[Medhia Nox]

Favoritism? Seriously?

I haven't dealt with favoritism since I had my tenth birthday.

Is this the mindset of the average Renegade?

===

As for the "tough choice" - it's only the "tough choice" in your mind.

Keeping the Collector base isn't a "tough choice". It's a purely selfish one based on the acquisition of power. Destroying it is the tough choice - because you're putting yourself at a disadvantage to do what you perceive as the right thing.

Killing Samara isn't a "tough choice" - again, presumably from the Morinth fan crowd - that is also based on the selfish acquisition of power. That - and they have a serious problem with people with morals, and a soft spot for serial killers who just "need a hug".

Kicking someone out a window - punching a reporter - hanging up "the phone" - talking like a a-hole. Those aren't "tough choices" - they're a-hole choices.

Killing a giant space bug you've been told was responsible for a huge intergalactic war - and whose children you've just been slaughtering. What kind of "tough choice" is it to hit "Incinerate"?

====

The only "tough" choices I've seen in this game are 1) The Virmire situation. 2) The Heretic Geth situation. All the rest have simply been no brainers to me.

It's true - that I only perceive the Geth as "toasters with a voice box" so I really didn't have a problem blowing up the heretics. But I could see where someone might wax philosophical about the relevance of robots that have been programmed to pretend at being alive.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 juillet 2011 - 01:34 .

[ThePwener]

This is starting to look more like a massive rant then a proper discussion.

[mauro2222]

Well I consider everything that can feel or be self aware as alive xD What makes us alive anyway? xD

[HogarthHughes 3]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The primary complaint I've seen - is that Renegades lose friends. Not - "Renegades will be unable to finish the game." or "The game is harder for Renegades".

Actually - the game is marginally easier for Renegades. You skip a handful of fights by taking the scumbag route to combat. Most Renegades will say "smart" - but I think that only proves that smart people can be, or might primarily be, scumbags.

So - you lose friends. Which means you lose a few minutes of content. That's your real issue.. not the "story".

Do you really think Renegade Shepard won't be able to win the game? I've got news for you - Bioware is out to take your money (and rightfully so, they're working hard to entertain you), and they're going to let even the most incompetent player win.

Hmm, well my "canon" renegon play through doesn't seem to be much worse off at all than a pure paragon would be when it comes to friends.  Maybe thats more of a complaint for players who stick to one alignment exclusively, but I prefer to mix up the decisions a little bit like most players probably do.  The concerns for most if not all (especially major) renegade decisions working out decidedly worse than paragon ones is still there.  For example, the Rachni and the Collector Base:  Spare the Rachni, and a pseudo-slave shows up to say they're gonna help against the Reapers.  Keep the Collector Base, and every member of the team doubts it was the right decision, even if they argued for keeping it before.  Of course, we still can't know the full outcomes of these decisions until ME3, but thus far all that has been hinted at is paragon = good, renegade = bad.  When looking at the precedent in ME1 -> ME2 (and throughout ME2), that notion is only reinforced.  The only paragon decision that ends up looking like it will have a worse outcome is letting Elnora the Eclipse mercenary flee, and going by past examples she'll turn up a goody two-shoes come ME3.

[Arijharn]

mauro2222 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Honestly; I think goodwill only gets you so far in international politics, and I can't imagine that being in any situation more so than some sort of extinction level event.

Whoo!! What a poor imagination I must say xD

I don't think it's poor imagination, although I do think there's a lot (tonnage) of cynicism in my statement. The point being is that I think it takes exceptional fellows to help others in the time of need, and by exceptional I'm thinking more like car crashes etc in which people with first aid come out to help. How many people do you see gawking at the sidelines as opposed to coming out and volunteering? How many people do you think hold first aid certificates? (not including Germany where I think it's actually a legal requirement!)

I like the idea of Turian's for example being allies etc, but I don't think it's any more likely if you're paragon or renegade all things considered. Namely because there's something about how Turian's interact that makes me think they wouldn't respect paragons, but would respect renegades at the personal level, which to me personally think is probably more important when it hits the fan.

Obviously, paragons and renegades will be able to finish the game, although I just can't see paragon's doing it without suffering massive casualties in the meantime due to loosing out on tech due to choices. The flipside might be that they gain the Rachni as allies, but imo that's a big 'might be' (but it's one that I chose too)

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Medhia Nox wrote...
As for the "tough choice" - it's only the "tough choice" in your mind.

Keeping the Collector base isn't a "tough choice". It's a purely selfish one based on the acquisition of power. Destroying it is the tough choice - because you're putting yourself at a disadvantage to do what you perceive as the right thing.

Killing Samara isn't a "tough choice" - again, presumably from the Morinth fan crowd - that is also based on the selfish acquisition of power. That - and they have a serious problem with people with morals, and a soft spot for serial killers who just "need a hug".

Kicking someone out a window - punching a reporter - hanging up "the phone" - talking like a a-hole. Those aren't "tough choices" - they're a-hole choices.

Killing a giant space bug you've been told was responsible for a huge intergalactic war - and whose children you've just been slaughtering. What kind of "tough choice" is it to hit "Incinerate"?

====

The only "tough" choices I've seen in this game are 1) The Virmire situation. 2) The Heretic Geth situation. All the rest have simply been no brainers to me.

It's true - that I only perceive the Geth as "toasters with a voice box" so I really didn't have a problem blowing up the heretics. But I could see where someone might wax philosophical about the relevance of robots that have been programmed to pretend at being alive.

You're not understanding the arguement.  It doesn't matter what your personal reasoning is.  It doesn't even matter what the situation is... it's the fact that the Paragon decisions are the favored outcomes (ie, they get the most positive validation, save the most lives, and get the most content).  So as long as it's blue, you get the most positive outcome.

That said... about your reasoning on 'tough choice' I could fire all of those back at you easily... as an example:

The Collector Base decision was selfish of the Paragon choice because he'd rather flip TIM the bird than continue trying to find a way to stop the Reapers and save the galaxy... when currently there's still no percieved way to beat them.  Paragon choices tend to put their own sense of nobility before the mission... but because it always works out in the most positive fashion, it never matters.


The arguement is about not having a "most positive outcome" button.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 01:45 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Favoritism? Seriously?

I haven't dealt with favoritism since I had my tenth birthday.

Let's avoid inviting the question of how long that was (or wasn't), and the other sort of implications that might have towards and about you. It probably wasn't what you intended to imply.

Is this the mindset of the average Renegade?

I don't and can't know, but your response certainly says a lot about your mindset than of any Renegade.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 juillet 2011 - 01:53 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

When you realize that there is a "most positive outcome" button... there is no tough choice.

Why do some people who want to argue against it never read what the actual arguement is?

[Praetor Knight]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's a book. Before computers and the internet were invented, it was the primary thing words were written on.

Ha,
Yeah that was more disbelief of what was read from said "book," or in this case forum post.

[Arijharn]

Ryzaki wrote...
It will however get you some extra ships that they'd probably keep for themselves otherwise. Same with certain blueprints and weapon schematics. (actually I'd love if saving the council got you access to certain weapons that you wouldn't get otherwise (same with saving the CB so it's balanced for paragons and renegades) 

Honestly I'd actually be really annoyed if you get extra weapon schematics for choosing to destroy the CB, if only because that's one of the major factors that I weighed in favour of saving it. It would just be another case of 'favouritism' as to how you currently described it.

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh except the Reapers are *already* attacking the alien worlds. The renegades saying that is pointless. The aliens need to protect themselves. The Reapers are centered on earth yeah...but they're all over so can they really afford to take the risk of losing ships trying to defend Earth, ships that they need to protect themselves? Especially when they have never had humanity sacrifice anything to help them out? I'd go with a no. 

Yet that goes both ways. Why would they go to save the Paragon's Earth when they still have to worry about their own planet & colonies? Because they 'want to'? I'm sorry, but that isn't a compelling enough argument, because even if they 'want to' they're still going to look out after no. 1 (i.e., themselves).

How are they going to get a meaningful census on total Reaper numbers anyway?

Ryzaki wrote...
Except in the dead council ending I'm pretty sure the Turians and humanity are pretty damn close to coming to war. The turians were stockpiling weapons and ships I believe. 

I haven't got this result but I think you're right. Funnily enough; an arms race between humanity and the Turian's would probably make them both safer against the Reapers... go figure.

Ryzaki wrote...
Where did I say they'd be screwed?  I said the alien races would be more likely to stand back instead of sticking their necks out. That doesn't mean they'll get no aid at all. They'll just get less than someone who saved the council did. No army with a brain is gonna let themselves be weaknened helping out someone they percieve to be a potential enemy. On the other hand with an ally, that wouldn't be an issue. Thus why the aliens will be far more willing to stick their necks out for humanity if the groups are coexisting peacefully vs the renegade power grab that pisses everyone else off. 

That's pretty logical to me. 

Apologies; I must have gotten your post confused with someone elses then. I think in the Renegade's case then they'd probably offer as much help because they'd probably think: "Hell, we're in this together", how much help they'd send doesn't make much sense military speaking I think. If they send 'not enough' then they're as screwed as otherwise because the Reaper's prevail. If they send 'just enough' then they'd make the difference ergo protecting their own interests.

That's pretty logical to me.

[HogarthHughes 3]

My input in bold

Medhia Nox wrote...
-snip-
===

As for the "tough choice" - it's only the "tough choice" in your mind.

Keeping the Collector base isn't a "tough choice". It's a purely selfish one based on the acquisition of power. Destroying it is the tough choice - because you're putting yourself at a disadvantage to do what you perceive as the right thing.

It could easily be argued that it is just as selfish to destroy the best chance against the reapers that has yet been found for the sake of morals.

Killing Samara isn't a "tough choice" - again, presumably from the Morinth fan crowd - that is also based on the selfish acquisition of power. That - and they have a serious problem with people with morals, and a soft spot for serial killers who just "need a hug".

I agree, it isn't a hard choice and I didn't like that the only renegade option is to kill Samara.  Morinth is not even remotely "morally grey," she is evil and needs to be killed.

Kicking someone out a window - punching a reporter - hanging up "the phone" - talking like a a-hole. Those aren't "tough choices" - they're a-hole choices.

These were never intended to be "tough choices," they just fit with the general renegade personality that Bioware has chosen to implement (being ruthless and/or a jerk).  That doesn't mean that all renegade decisions are just for Shepard to be a jerk "for the lulz."

Killing a giant space bug you've been told was responsible for a huge intergalactic war - and whose children you've just been slaughtering. What kind of "tough choice" is it to hit "Incinerate"?

It could be considered a "tough choice" because it is the apparent genocide of the last of a sapient species.  Unless one role-plays their Shepard as a sadistic SOB, it shouldn't be easy for them to do such a thing even if they consider it the right thing to do.

====
-snip-

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:00 .

[mauro2222]

Arijharn wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Honestly; I think goodwill only gets you so far in international politics, and I can't imagine that being in any situation more so than some sort of extinction level event.

Whoo!! What a poor imagination I must say xD

I don't think it's poor imagination, although I do think there's a lot (tonnage) of cynicism in my statement. The point being is that I think it takes exceptional fellows to help others in the time of need, and by exceptional I'm thinking more like car crashes etc in which people with first aid come out to help. How many people do you see gawking at the sidelines as opposed to coming out and volunteering? How many people do you think hold first aid certificates? (not including Germany where I think it's actually a legal requirement!)

I like the idea of Turian's for example being allies etc, but I don't think it's any more likely if you're paragon or renegade all things considered. Namely because there's something about how Turian's interact that makes me think they wouldn't respect paragons, but would respect renegades at the personal level, which to me personally think is probably more important when it hits the fan.

Obviously, paragons and renegades will be able to finish the game, although I just can't see paragon's doing it without suffering massive casualties in the meantime due to loosing out on tech due to choices. The flipside might be that they gain the Rachni as allies, but imo that's a big 'might be' (but it's one that I chose too)

I´ll see that as a compliment xD but I´d prefer not to take it, because helping others and not staying in the corner, is what all humans must do, but well it depends on education, most people are educated to act expecting a reward when they don´t see it they do nothing. I transform fear in will, that´s why I react fast and in most situations I put myself in danger for the good of others.

Yes, it will be more difficult to paragon shepard. I take the responsibility of releasing the rachni, she was not a cold murdered, her actions were justified and even if not, I can´t kill a whole species due to his nature.

[Praetor Knight]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

RAH RAH RED TEAM GOOOOOO! I hope Blue team bleeds from ALL of their orifices! All the time! Forever! WOO RED TEAM WE ROCK!

It's exactly like politics, except somehow more pathetic.

I'm on team Byzantine, purple was a regal color of their's after all.

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...
Honestly I'd actually be really annoyed if you get extra weapon schematics for choosing to destroy the CB, if only because that's one of the major factors that I weighed in favour of saving it. It would just be another case of 'favouritism' as to how you currently described it.

Uh...that's not what I said. I said both saving the council or/and saving the CB gives you additional weapons and such that you would not normally get. Each decision comes with its own perks and drawbacks. Saving the council would give you access to certain turian/asari technology, saving the CB would give you access to certain reaper/collector technology. Killing both would give you squat. Saving both you give you all the goods.

Yet that goes both ways. Why would they go to save the Paragon's Earth when they still have to worry about their own planet & colonies? Because they 'want to'? I'm sorry, but that isn't a compelling enough argument, because even if they 'want to' they're still going to look out after no. 1 (i.e., themselves).

How are they going to get a meaningful census on total Reaper numbers anyway?

I never said they wouldn't. But if a war if you hve extra resources are you really gonna horde them for yourself and not give them to an ally? Especially if said ally is in dire need of the resources?

They're not. But the fact that earth is being completely reamed (the humans aren't just being killed they're being collected) should send up red flags. The Reapers are also more likely to do *less* damage to earth because of what they're trying to do the humans.

I haven't got this result but I think you're right. Funnily enough; an arms race between humanity and the Turian's would probably make them both safer against the Reapers... go figure.

Probably would. 

However I doubt the turians would've shared the Thannix with humanity. So all those weapons are pretty worthless against the reapers on the humans end. Unless they stole part of Sovvie's weapons too. 

Apologies; I must have gotten your post confused with someone elses then. I think in the Renegade's case then they'd probably offer as much help because they'd probably think: "Hell, we're in this together", how much help they'd send doesn't make much sense military speaking I think. If they send 'not enough' then they're as screwed as otherwise because the Reaper's prevail. If they send 'just enough' then they'd make the difference ergo protecting their own interests.

That's pretty logical to me.

Except I never really seen anyone go "hey we're in this together." to someone they percieve as an enemy as much as they would to someone they're friendly with. It ends up with the two parties faking smiles while they secretly can't wait for the chance to stab each other in the back. I doubt armies would be any different. Not to mention based off the interviews if they're fighting among each other (geth/quarians) I doubt they'll pass up a chance to do the same for humans. Stupid...but likely. People aren't completely rational creatures. Never have been. I don't know. We'll see whose right when ME3 happens. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:17 .

[Medhia Nox]

And nobody has stated what they're losing as a Renegade.

Friends? Is that it - a bunch of supposed badasses want to have friends too?

===

@HogarthHughes - I largely agree to your point about the Collector base, but not about the Rachni.

I fully hope that at least one "Paragon" choice comes to bite me in the arse. Destroying the Collector base - and no, I didn't destroy it to give TIM the finger. I'm not interested in giving TIM the finger - I'm interested in saving the galaxy.

The Collector base seems like a red-herring. A "too easy" Trojan horse that could provide quick power... and it just didn't make sense. The giant thing is a hive - with no means of really supporting a non-Collector crew. It would seem like it would take forever to make anything that is part of it useful... so, instead of wasting resources sending out a crew to "tow" it back to some safe port - or "bring it online" in the field and leave it where the Reapers can get it - I decided to scuttle it. I felt it was basic "scorched earth" policy.

Also - if the all powerful ancient super-being Harbinger "didn't" want me to grab it - he could have had some self-destruct button. Instead, we get: "Oh Shepard - you're so awesome, you win. Here's a huge weapon you can dissect to fight us when we get here."

And yes - in a "One Ring" mentality, I felt like it was a deal with the devil for immediate gain. Cerberus would use it in the future to great detriment to the galaxy.

Anyway - blah blah - and I blew it up.

====

But the Rachni - it's "almost" as blatant as Morinth that "Rachni = bad". We're told over and over that they're the indirect cause of so many issues... the Krogan and the genophage... a huge war... etc. etc. And then - we're forced to kill tons.

Honestly - I think it would be really easy for someone to come to the conclusion... this thing is going to be NOTHING but trouble.

[ThePwener]

Medhia Nox wrote...

And nobody has stated what they're losing as a Renegade.

Friends? Is that it - a bunch of supposed badasses want to have friends too?

lol


It's frigging ME! Has anyone had a real advantage over another alighment? No. I see no reason in this thread.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

There is no "immediate gain" to saving the Collector Base.

Additionally, if the Suicide Mission truly felt like a Suicide Mission, it also wouldn't be considered "too easy." Capturing bases is nothing new to history... neither is studying enemy technology.

That base was not meant to have been reachable. Additionally, you go there to destroy it and a fire of a certain color was about to wipe out the general (the collector general is unaware of whether it's a radiation pulse or explosive fire).

All in all, every advantage against the Reapers we've ever gotten has been due to the "all powerful ancient super being" making a mistake. To not take advantage because of paranoia/viewing the Reapers with superstitious awe may not be the best idea when it comes time to defeat the enemy that is the Reapers.

Avoiding Indoctrination is impossible when fighting the Reapers. Destroying the base doesn't preclude it and in fact limits your chances of understanding and countering Reaper technology.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

And to restate for I don't know how many times... the issue is Favoritism, lol.

[ThePwener]

You made a good point. Being in "awe" or fear of the Reapers will just lead to downfall. That's what happed to every race before the current ones.They're not invincible and have not thought of everything. If they had, Shepard wouldn't have beaten them 3 times already. And he's just one man with a handful of resources.

[Ryzaki]

Favoritism?

You do realize renegades constantly get easier battles right? (which is complete bull).

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Favoritism?

You do realize renegades constantly get easier battles right? (which is complete bull).

The cutscene Shepard gets to kill them instead of you.  Whoohooo?  You still kill them.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:55 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Favoritism?

You do realize renegades constantly get easier battles right? (which is complete bull).

The cutscene Shepard gets to kill them instead of you.  Whoohooo?

A cutscene where some character tells Shepard they'll help him. Whoohooo? 

Fact is both sides get advantages over the other. If you want to belittle my grudges I can do the same. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:57 .