1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
You save more lives and get the Council's blessing/are on good terms with them... to start.

 

Save more alien lives and lose more human lives. As for good terms...you saved their life. That's not actually an advantage to Shepard in ME2 considering nothing happes regardless. Not to mention they give Shepard *nothing* nothing at all. So yeah...what's the good point in that other than having to headdesk at "ah yes 'reapers'."? 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Paragon/Renegade is not Good/Evil or Jedi/Sith. The game's favoritism could understandably make you feel that way about it though.

[JBONE27]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Renegade outcome gone right

Remember that ship in Garrus's recruitment mission? The one you can sabotage? That was a Renegade action... and it came out right. Many other also end up right. If you have the stomach for it, letting the workers die gets you the Blue Suns leader roasted.

To be clear, the issue is not whether Renegades 'get the job done' or 'win' in the end.  It's that the most positive result comes from the Paragon alternative.

What was the Paragon alternative choice to the sabotage?

As far as Zaeed goes, it's more favoritism... because that was Zaeed's loyalty mission... and even when Shepard refused to do what Zaeed went there for, he still got his loyalty. 

Vido did not cause anything negative to happen throughout Mass Effect 2.. so letting him go was not a negative outcome.

You do realize that Zeed was a DLC, and they really don't affect the main game all that much right?  For all you know, letting Vido live will give the reapers more mercs to throw in your face, whereas killing him will reduce the number of enemies you have by 1/10.

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...

Ahh, it was your nested brackets that confused me. Foiled by a lack of reading comprehension!

Nah I'm just a spazz when I type too quickly.  

The point being is that you never know if you'll need those extra resources either, so yeah... I think they will horde generally speaking because I think it'll be a natural response to make. That's not to say that they wont send a sizeable contribution, just that I don't think it's going to automatically favour paragons as much as you seem to think.

We're basically saying the same thing I feel, just probably approaching it from different directions.

Oh I'm not saying it's gonna be huge. It will probably balance out those 8 ships the alliance lost from saving the council though. 

While that may be the case, I wouldn't predicate high level strategic thinking onto the assumption that they'll be reaming us 'less' than what they could be. As far as I know, it's not common knowledge that the Reapers were connected with the Collector's to begin with and I find it kinda dubious to make the assumption that the Reaper's still want to merely 'collect us' compared to just straight doing what they do usually.

Shepard will tell them. 

Nah they want HR baby. I'm pretty sure they're not gonna change their mind because Shepard once again foiled them. If anything that'll make them want it more. 

Heh. Harby wants to have Shep's baby. 

I think you're right though meta-speaking wise, because I think it has something to do with why Cerberus is co-operating with the Reapers. I.e., why they're hunting Shephard, and what Cerberus wants to gain from it. I don't think that they're necessarily 'indoctrinated' and more than anything else; I think a reason for the the slow rate of Reaper consumption of Earth is a bargaining tool Cerberus used to fulfill it's objectives, which may just be to buy time for a proper force to be assembled to take it the Reaper's out.

Ah I don't agree. Indoctrination is too slippery for me to think Cerberus with all it's fumblings have found some way to trick the Reapers into thinking they were falling under it. 

If they wouldn't 'willingly' share that with their allies, then that to me just makes the concept of Cerberus and their actions for the some part, more essential as far as I'm concerned.

I'm speaking of a human dominated council scenario. In the paragon scenario I see them working with the alliance to create it. 

...Would be pretty funny if in the renegade ending humanity has awesome shields, and the turians have awesome guns. And if you don't get them to work together Humans end up with ****ty weapons on their ships that don't do squat but can take considerable damage from the Reapers and the turians end up with mc awesome weapons that can take out small reapers in a few shots, but their ship armor is so ****ty one hit makes it blow up. 

I don't think in this case it would be rational, rather irrational fear that would cause them to work together. As far as things go I think the arrival of the Reaper's pretty much represents the doomsday scenario. If the backstory between stuff like the First Contact War factors into it; then surely by now they'd have to start connecting some dots together.

But yes, I agree... we'll just have to see!

March 6th can't comefast enough.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .

[Arijharn]

Ryzaki wrote...
March 6th can't comefast enough.  

Your other points may be important but this is easily the most important. I want to hibernate like a bear.

On the flipside though I'll miss out on Deus Ex, Space Marine, Skyrim (?) and knowing my luck probably Darksiders 2 too if I did this.  

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
You save more lives and get the Council's blessing/are on good terms with them... to start.

 

Save more alien lives and lose more human lives. As for good terms...you saved their life. That's not actually an advantage to Shepard in ME2 considering nothing happes regardless. Not to mention they give Shepard *nothing* nothing at all. So yeah...what's the good point in that other than having to headdesk at "ah yes 'reapers'."? 

Lives are lives.  Shepard saved everyone's life.  And more than that happens... Renegade/Neutral result:  

Asari give up their defense responsibilities (in Council space) to the Turians... who aren't doing any favors for humans.  The Alliance ends up pulling most of the weight (apparently due to a lack of cooperation).  Riots also break out and there is no good will or assistance offered (the Turians specifically saying 'the responsibility is theirs').  The Salarians accuse humanity of using 'gunboat' diplomacy and all in all, there's no positive validation presented to making that choice.

On the Paragon side, The Council is on good terms with you and reinstates you personally (yet alone sees you and talks with you).  You saved more lives rescuing the Ascension than were lost to save it.  The Turians celebrate humans and consider increasing their reparations to them.  Relations increase positively between species.  No riots or negative feedback are mentioned for that choice.  All in all, there's no negative validation presented to making that choice.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:46 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

JBONE27 wrote...
You do realize that Zeed was a DLC, and they really don't affect the main game all that much right?  For all you know, letting Vido live will give the reapers more mercs to throw in your face, whereas killing him will reduce the number of enemies you have by 1/10.

I do realize that it was DLC.  And we're talking about what's been done so that what happens later changes.

If negative consequences happen from a Paragon choice and positive consequences happen from a Renegade choice (for a change)... Then great and that's what this is about.

If even DLC shows favoritism toward the Paragon side... yeah.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:44 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
You save more lives and get the Council's blessing/are on good terms with them... to start.

 

Save more alien lives and lose more human lives. As for good terms...you saved their life. That's not actually an advantage to Shepard in ME2 considering nothing happes regardless. Not to mention they give Shepard *nothing* nothing at all. So yeah...what's the good point in that other than having to headdesk at "ah yes 'reapers'."? 

Lives are lives.  Shepard saved everyone's life.  And more than that happens... Asari give up their defense responsibilities (in Council space) to the Turians... who aren't doing any favors for humans.  The Alliance ends up pulling most of the weight (apparently due to a lack of cooperation).  Riots also break out and there is no good will or assistance offered (the Turians specifically saying 'the responsibility is theirs').  The Salarians accuse humanity of using 'gunboat' diplomacy and all in all, there's no positive validation presented to making that choice.

On the Paragon side, The Council is on good terms with you and reinstates you personally (yet alone sees you and talks with you).  You saved more lives than were lost to save it.  The Turians celebrate humans and consider increasing their reparations to them.  Relations increase positively between species.  No riots or negative feedback are mentioned for that choice.

 

You forget about the huge increase of power humanity has in the renegade side? They end up pulling all the weight but they also have massive advantages do they not? Aren't they then allowed to build more weapons than the rest of the races? 

Human pulls a coup. Of course they're revilled. It was a dumb decision. (Not focusing on Sovvie but thinking a race fresh off the block can suddenly run a millenia old government with no issue). I thought you wanted realistic consequences for both actions? Why would that end up mostly positive? Hell I'd say it is positive considering the Turians haven't gone to war with them yet. 

I was a bit annoyed that the DA ended up having more people saved though. I liked that cost. 

The council decision is the only one I thought went reasonably well in ME2. The Rachni queen on the other hand...that should blow up in Shep's face. As should letting certain criminals go. (which for some reason...doesn't).  

On the paragon side of the Council decision doesn't that reporter suggest that humans weren't pleased with Shepard for that decision? Would be nice to go to Earth and be called an alien lover for making that choice. I'll wear that badge with pride. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:51 .

[Ryzaki]

Arijharn wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
March 6th can't comefast enough.  

Your other points may be important but this is easily the most important. I want to hibernate like a bear.

On the flipside though I'll miss out on Deus Ex, Space Marine, Skyrim (?) and knowing my luck probably Darksiders 2 too if I did this.  

 

Me 2.

SKYRIM! That *should* tide me over until ME3 comes out. ...Hopefully. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:58 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
You forget about the huge increase of power humanity has in the renegade side? They end up pulling all the weight but they also have massive advantages do they not? Aren't they then allowed to build more weapons than the rest of the races? 

Human pulls a coup. Of course they're revilled. It was a dumb decision. (Not focusing on Sovvie but thinking a race fresh off the block can suddenly run a millenia old government with no issue). I thought you wanted realistic consequences for both actions? Why would that end up mostly positive? 

There is nothing saying Humanity increased in power, just that they siezed it.  Pulling all the weight means whatever the Alliance had has to be used for what they've now got.  I've heard nothing about the Alliance having the ability or even building more weapons... the Turians decide to though.. but that's not positive to the choice.

The results I listed happens regardless of whether you Concentrate on Sovereign or Let the Council die.  It wasn't a coup (though you could argue it for the pure Renegade side).  The neutral side, without question, did no such thing.  Additionally, they simply replace the Council with Alien and Human members and take the lead in its rebuilding.

Still a lack of content, cameos, and positive validation for not choosing the Paragon side.  Actually, the Neutral choice doesn't even get a unique outcome to the Renegade side at all.

I was a bit annoyed that the DA ended up having more people saved though. I liked that cost. 

The council decision is the only one I thought went reasonably well in ME2. The Rachni queen on the other hand...that should blow up in Shep's face. As should letting certain criminals go. (which for some reason...doesn't).  

On the paragon side of the Council decision doesn't that reporter suggest that humans weren't pleased with Shepard for that decision? Would be nice to go to Earth and be called an alien lover for making that choice. I'll wear that badge with pride. 

The Reporter is against you no matter what you choose.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .

[Someone With Mass]

Can someone explain to me why it's considered a Renegade action to shoot a mech? Like the one on Garrus' recruitment mission. Which I'd have shot regardless when the battle started.

[ThePwener]

I have Saints Row The Third to look foward to. Skyrim, for some reason, doesn't feel like it will be better then Oblivion. It's probably just me.

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Can someone explain to me why it's considered a Renegade action to shoot a mech? Like the one on Garrus' recruitment mission. Which I'd have shot regardless when the battle started.

It was cool..... and everyone knows Renegades are cool.

Modifié par ThePwener, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
There is nothing saying Humanity increased in power, just that they siezed it.  Pulling all the weight means whatever the Alliance had has to be used for what they've not got.  I've heard nothing about the Alliance having the ability or even building more weapons... the Turians decide to though.. but that's not positive to the choice.

Truth be told nothing should be positive about this choice. Absolutley nothing. It's a stupid choice. (not the choice of letting the council die but having humanity take the reigns.) I wish the original neutral "let the council die but build new council of aliens with humans with all groups with equal power" stayed because the renegade ending was f**king stupid. Everything about it was stupid. "Oh yes us special humans are now gonna lead the council! We're so smart!" It's already facepalm worthy enough that they haven't been overthrown. 

The results I listed happens regardless of whether you Concentrate on Sovereign or Let the Council die.  It wasn't a coup (though you could argue it for the pure Renegade side).  The neutral side, without question, did no such thing.  Additionally, they simply replace the Council with Alien and Human members and take the lead in its rebuilding.

Still a lack of content, cameos, and positive validation for not choosing the Paragon side.  Actually, the Neutral choice doesn't even get a unique outcome to the Renegade side at all.

The neutral side is competely ignored for whatever reason. (Don't even know why it's in the game but it's not the first time BW put a choice in ME1 just to ignore it in ME2 *looks sadly at her racist Shep* so you have my condolences). 

There shouldn't be a postive validation for choosing renegade in this scenario. It was dumb. That said it's not Shepard's fault. The alliance is just a bunch of retards. Just like Balak getting away scot free and staying quiet for 2 years is dumb. In the renegade scenario (because neutral is completely ignored) it's a coup. A stupid coup. That's successful.

I want the choices to make so damn sense for both paragons and renegades. Screw "postive validation" 

You should've been able to meet the new council though. If only for them to thank Shep for giving them power and give him/her a weapon or something. 

The Reporter is against you no matter what you choose.

 

Bleh. what a b*tch. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:06 .

[GodWood]

ThePwener wrote...
Skyrim, for some reason, doesn't feel like it will be better then Oblivion. It's probably just me.

I really doubt it could worse then the steaming turd that was Oblivion.


And I say that as a TES fan

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

ThePwener wrote...
Skyrim, for some reason, doesn't feel like it will be better then Oblivion. It's probably just me.

I really doubt it could worse then the steaming turd that was Oblivion.


And I say that as a TES fan

 

Harsh...It couldn't have been *that* bad. 

[Il Divo]

GodWood wrote...

]I really doubt it could worse then the steaming turd that was Oblivion.


And I say that as a TES fan

Agreed. As long as they remove the terrible level scaling, it will already be leagues above Oblivion.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
Truth be told nothing should be positive about this choice. Absolutley nothing. It's a stupid choice. (not the choice of letting the council die but having humanity take the reigns.) I wish the original neutral "let the council die but build new council of aliens with humans with all groups with equal power" stayed because the renegade ending was f**king stupid. Everything about it was stupid. "Oh yes us special humans are now gonna lead the council! We're so smart!" It's already facepalm worthy enough that they haven't been overthrown. 

The "lead" bit was retconned, because Anderson makes it clear that he's not leading anything.  The choice has nothing to do with the epilogue options.  I consider them two seperate things.  You didn't know ahead of time that it would come to that.  And when did Shepard's personal feelings toward the Council matter concerning the public record?

Even if they wanted to take over, they could've done it in a manner that didn't condemn anyone.

The neutral side is competely ignored for whatever reason. (Don't even know why it's in the game but it's not the first time BW put a choice in ME1 just to ignore it in ME2 *looks sadly at her racist Shep* so you have my condolences). 

There shouldn't be a postive validation for choosing renegade in this scenario. It was dumb. That said it's not Shepard's fault. The alliance is just a bunch of retards. Just like Balak getting away scot free and staying quiet for 2 years is dumb.

Thank you for acknowledging some of the lack of content for a non-Paragon side.

If they're going to follow the human dominance thing, then they should've done it.  Some upside could've been presented to the choice... if that becomes a true Renegade goal.  I personally don't think Renegade Shepard did that to take anything over though... I think he still did what he did to save the galaxy... just with malice toward the Council (a case where it still wasn't worth the risk... but he didn't like the council anyway).

Bleh. what a b*tch. 

lol

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:13 .

[ThePwener]

It wasn't. He's just being a meanie!

Really, Oblivion was spectacular, just takes patience. Something a lot of people lack.....

[ThePwener]

Il Divo wrote...

GodWood wrote...

]I really doubt it could worse then the steaming turd that was Oblivion.


And I say that as a TES fan

Agreed. As long as they remove the terrible level scaling, it will already be leagues above Oblivion.

Did you know that it's exactly like Fallout? With Exp from killing enemies and perks? Hardly original.

[Il Divo]

ThePwener wrote...

Did you know that it's exactly like Fallout? With Exp from killing enemies and perks? Hardly original.

I really couldn't care less about Fallout or originality if it's implemented like crap. In Oblivion, by leveling I'm actually making the game harder, which removes all enjoyment from the leveling system. That's not 'original', that's bad game design.

Modifié par Il Divo, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:16 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

level scaling apparently returns for Skyrim... that's off-topic though

[Il Divo]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

level scaling apparently returns for Skyrim... that's off-topic though

True, but I recall seeing an interview where they discuss how the system's been refined. Or I could simply be insane.

[ThePwener]

I wouldn't know Divo. I just glitched at the start of the game and bigger monsters show up. Go figure!

[Praetor Knight]

Ryzaki wrote...

GodWood wrote...

ThePwener wrote...
Skyrim, for some reason, doesn't feel like it will be better then Oblivion. It's probably just me.

I really doubt it could worse then the steaming turd that was Oblivion.


And I say that as a TES fan

 

Harsh...It couldn't have been *that* bad.

It's a fine game IMHO, but I started with Oblivion in the TES universe, so I can't really compare it to its predecessors either.



With the Paragon/Renegade, I hope that ME3 maybe has a combined coercion/persuasion skill where either Blue or Red would not have to be as exclusive as in ME1 and ME2.

And I've tended to get like a 12/10 - Charm/Intimidate skill in ME1 for my third playthroughs, and then be able to import the full bonus into ME2 so I can pick and choose anyway in both games.