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[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote...

A bullet in the head DOES solve everything. How else could Shepard go through all those Geth,Mercs and Collectors?

So a bullet to the head allowed Shepard to get the Normandy from lockdown? :innocent:

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:36 .

[Seboist]

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

A bullet in the head DOES solve everything. How else could Shepard go through all those Geth,Mercs and Collectors?

So a bullet to the head allowed Shepard to get the Normandy from lockdown? :innocent:

A punch to the head sure did.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

*shrugs*

I could point to such interpretations of paragon actions that aren't just "for the warm fuzzies" and can be pragamatic of themselves. Doesn't stop people from calling them "warm fuzzies" options. 

It's more the results of such decisions compared to any other alternative. 

Like saving the Council... if there were no time table it would've been a totally different scenario and something you couldn't call a "hard choice."  You either save them or you don't... that wasn't what was at stake.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

A bullet in the head DOES solve everything. How else could Shepard go through all those Geth,Mercs and Collectors?

So a bullet to the head allowed Shepard to get the Normandy from lockdown? :innocent:

Arms are called "guns" too... those punches are indeed bullets.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
It's more the results of such decisions compared to any other alternative.  

Like saving the Council... if there were no time table it would've been a totally different scenario and something you couldn't call a "hard choice."  You either save them or you don't... that wasn't what was at stake.

Except for of course "saving the council isn't pragamatic!" peeps. (and there's plenty of them) why of course. Saving the ship with the best gun available (especially when all the other guns aren't doing ****) is a stupid decision that can't possibly be pragmatic.  

And punching someone in the face didn't get the Normandy from lockdown either sad to say. Hacking into someone's computer did. 

Try again! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:43 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
It's more the results of such decisions compared to any other alternative.  

Like saving the Council... if there were no time table it would've been a totally different scenario and something you couldn't call a "hard choice."  You either save them or you don't... that wasn't what was at stake.

Except for of course "saving the council isn't pragamatic!" peeps. (and there's plenty of them) why of course. Saving the ship with the best gun available (especially when all the other guns aren't doing ****) is a stupid decision. 

Not stupid.. but a few things:

-the arms aren't open yet, so no one's gotten a chance to test their guns against Sovereign... they work on the Geth... the DA's guns haven't been working against the Geth though.  When you think about it, the DA could've cleared out geth that were fighting Citadel defense teams and free them up to protect the DA... but nooooo

-The Destiny Ascension at that point is pretty totalled... and after saving it, would you really want to pit it against Sovereign?  I thought the goal was to save them?  Sovereign 1-shotted that one ship that packed the most punch at the time.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:46 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
And punching someone in the face didn't get the Normandy from lockdown either sad to say. Hacking into someone's computer did. 
Try again! 

Punching someone in the face solved the issue of getting to that computer to hack.  The hacking was easy.. if it even needed that.

So think again!

[Ryzaki]

The punching was unnecessary though. Even if Udina had beenoutof his office the computer would've always needed to be hacked. 

So yes. Think again.  Punching Udina means nothing if you don't hack the comp. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:49 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
It's more the results of such decisions compared to any other alternative.  

Like saving the Council... if there were no time table it would've been a totally different scenario and something you couldn't call a "hard choice."  You either save them or you don't... that wasn't what was at stake.

Except for of course "saving the council isn't pragamatic!" peeps. (and there's plenty of them) why of course. Saving the ship with the best gun available (especially when all the other guns aren't doing ****) is a stupid decision. 

Not stupid.. but a few things:

-the arms aren't open yet, so no one's gotten a chance to test their guns against Sovereign... they work on the Geth... the DA's guns haven't been working against the Geth though.  When you think about it, the DA could've cleared out geth that were fighting Citadel defense teams and free them up to protect the DA... but nooooo

-The Destiny Ascension at that point is pretty totalled... and after saving it, would you really want to pit it against Sovereign?  I thought the goal was to save them?  Sovereign 1-shotted that one ship that packed the most punch at the time.

1. Wrong they were firing at Sovereign when he first entered so...yeah. Didn't work. Hell they even see one of the ships blow up right infront of Sovereign and it recieves absolutely no damage from the blast. So...yeah. It wasn't the whole fleet. But those ships weren't exactly pushovers (one would assume at least). 

2. When it has the best gun in the fleet? Um...why wouldn't I fire it at Sovereign?  The DA was only in trouble because the Geth beelined for it and it was swarmed. Even the best weapon can do little damage if it's too busy getting swarmed by multiple enemies. I saved it to give it some breathing room so it *could* fire. And thanks to some of the Geth being destroyed when I saved the DA there's enough breathing room for more ships to fire. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:57 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

The punching was unnecessary though. Even if Udina had beenoutof his office the computer would've always needed to be hacked. 

So yes. Think again.  Punching Udina means nothing if you don't hack the comp. 

Udina was 'using' the comp at the time.  If he was out of his office, then yes... punching him would've been unnecessary... but he was there... so it was the fastest way.

Thought about it again... I've drawn the same conclusion.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Udina was 'using' the comp at the time.  If he was out of his office, then yes... punching him would've been unnecessary... but he was there... so it was the fastest way.

Thought about it again... I've drawn the same conclusion.

Punching Udina doesn't allow Shepard to use the Normandy. Hacking the computer is what does. Anderson could've shocked Udina, had him called out of his office for something or any number of things. 

That computer always needed to be hacked however. 

Violence allowed him to get to the computer sure. But non-violence could've worked as well. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:56 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
1. Wrong they were firing at Sovereign when he first entered so...yeah. Didn't work. Hell they even see one of the ships blow up right infront of Sovereign and it recieves absolutely no damage from the blast. So...yeah. 

That wasn't a test... the DA doesn't even go down that fast.

2. When it has the best gun in the fleet? Um...why wouldn't I fire it at Sovereign?  The DA was only in trouble because the Geth beelined for it and it was swarmed. Even the best weapon can do little damage if it's too busy getting swarmed by multiple enemies. I saved it to give it some breathing room so it *could* fire. 

Besides the DA being jacked up and mostly offline, the question still stands.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...
Punching Udina doesn't allow Shepard to use the Normandy. Hacking the computer is what does. Anderson could've shocked Udina, had him called out of his office for something or any number of things. 

That computer always needed to be hacked however. 

Violence allowed him to get to the computer sure. But non-violence could've worked as well. 

Anderson had to get past Udina and prevent him from opposing the attempt.  A KO is the fastest way.

Nonviolence would not gaurantee the objective being completed... Udina could've silently tripped an alarm if a gun was pulled or called security to escort a pleading Anderson away.

[Quething]

... nobody punched anybody to get the Normandy out of lockdown in 50% of my games. Something does get hacked in 100% of them, though.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Quething wrote...

... nobody punched anybody to get the Normandy out of lockdown in 50% of my games. Something does get hacked in 100% of them, though.

a headbutt with a side order of bullet instead?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:08 .

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
That wasn't a test... the DA doesn't even go down that fast.

The fact that said ship is completely unconcerned and that it doesn't even try to avoid said firings means nothing? Okay then. 

Besides the DA being jacked up and mostly offline, the question still stands.

And I answered it. You don't like the answer then well that's too bad. 

And no Anderson doesn't have to punch Udina to get Shepard airborn. He can sneak into C-Sec (he gets shot though so I dislike that route). And I thought the headbutt came after he hacked the comp? 

But if you want to be a smartass here's all the problems solved in ME that did not require a single shot. 

- Convincing mercs to give Shepard information (especially with paragon Shepard) along with giving up their businesses. Granted said merc is restricted to Blake but you do not need to use violence to get her to stop. 
- Seducing Morinth (you do not have to use any of the violent choices to get her attention)
- Getting Exogeni to continue supporting Zhu's Hope 
- Getting the reporter off Shepard's back (Choosing the non-violent solution is the most effective).
- Getting the biotic extremists to back off (this mission is one of my favs) 
- Talking with "Lord Darius" (just going along with his demands and not one shot needs to be fired). 

There's more but I've forgotten. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:16 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

And I answered it. You don't like the answer then well that's too bad. 

It's not that I didn't like it, I just didn't know it was there.  So you would send the DA into harm's way... so your decision wasn't about saving the Council per-se... but using its weapons against Sovereign (hoping they don't miss and hit inhabitants on the Citadel?).  Also assuming that those guns are still online.

And no Anderson doesn't have to punch Udina to get Shepard airborn. He can sneak into C-Sec (he gets shot though so I dislike that route). And I thought the headbutt came after he hacked the comp? 

If he goes to Udina's office he does.  Regarding C-sec, it happened before... he still has to get past someone in order to initiate the hack.... both of whom were met with violence.

But if you want to be a smartass here's all the problems solved in ME that did not require a single shot. 

- Convincing mercs to give Shepard information (especially with paragon Shepard) along with giving up their businesses
- Seducing Morinth
- Getting Exogeni to continue supporting Zhu's Hope
- Getting the reporter off Shepard's back
- Getting the biotic extremists to back off
- Talking with "Lord Darius"

There's more but I've forgotten. 

I'm not taking it that far, lol.  Renegades aren't all action and no talk... you can get the guard on purgatory from beating that helpless inmate without hurting anyone... using a Renegade response.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:20 .

[RPGamer13]

scyphozoa wrote...

I blame this on the ambiguous and undefined nature of the morality in ME. Paragon is well defined, but renegade is not, and is often unjustified or unexplained behavior.

I respectfully disagree.

Paragon is not well defined in comparison.  There's some things the paragon does that does seem like it's not exactly what I think of when I hear the word Paragon.  Also, Renegade has some that's the opposite I feel, meaning it's in the same boat.  But there's far less of that than I've seen of Paragon and I have only seena very small percentage of Paragon choices when I played both games 100% Renegade.

I never played a full game of either doing Paragon choices like I have 100% gone down the renegade path, due to the first game having a glitch that allowed you to max out Paragon from scratch.  And the second game, there wasn't an achievement either way so there was no need there either.

[Seboist]

Both the morality paths are extremely inconsistent. If Paragon is about being peaceful, friendly and diplomatic then why does it involve shoving a gun in Zaeed's face and threatening to break an Elcor's legs? Likewise Renegade can't make up it's mind on whether it wants to be "The Punisher" when it comes to criminals or a crooked cop on the take.

[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote...

Both the morality paths are extremely inconsistent. If Paragon is about being peaceful, friendly and diplomatic then why does it involve shoving a gun in Zaeed's face and threatening to break an Elcor's legs? Likewise Renegade can't make up it's mind on whether it wants to be "The Punisher" when it comes to criminals or a crooked cop on the take.

This so much. 

Paragon can act like a douche at the oddest time (like verbally ripping int Mordin when the guy is already torn up about what he had to do). And renegade can be oddly understanding and non controntational (with Mordin). Neither are very consistent. 

[HogarthHughes 3]

Seboist wrote...

Both the morality paths are extremely inconsistent. If Paragon is about being peaceful, friendly and diplomatic then why does it involve shoving a gun in Zaeed's face and threatening to break an Elcor's legs? Likewise Renegade can't make up it's mind on whether it wants to be "The Punisher" when it comes to criminals or a crooked cop on the take.

I hope Bioware doesn't include more renegade lines like the one in Jacob's LM to his father, where Shepard can say that it would be tempting to rule over a group of drug-addled sex slaves.

[Ryzaki]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...
I hope Bioware doesn't include more renegade lines like the one in Jacob's LM to his father, where Shepard can say that it would be tempting to rule over a group of drug-addled sex slaves.

Thanks for reminding me of that. My jaw dropped in absolute WTF and I had to reload. I can't believe he said that. I mean...that was the most disgusting line in the game for me. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 04:34 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

The fact that said ship is completely unconcerned and that it doesn't even try to avoid said firings means nothing? Okay then. 

The DA didn't do any different.  Dreadnaughts usually don't have very aggressive evasive maneuvers.

Seboist wrote...

Both the morality paths are extremely inconsistent. If Paragon is about being peaceful, friendly and diplomatic then why does it involve shoving a gun in Zaeed's face and threatening to break an Elcor's legs? Likewise Renegade can't make up it's mind on whether it wants to be "The Punisher" when it comes to criminals or a crooked cop on the take.

Renegades can also be accused of being heroes with a bad attitude (John McClane, Jack Bauer, Raylan Givens, etc.)

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:34 .