1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I couldn't care less what happens to Renegade decisions. What does bug me is you caring what happens to Paragon decisions when you don't take them.

Because the Renegade decision exists to avoid possible Paragon decision consequences, therefore any consequences for the Paragon decision would make the Renegade decision justified.

Except that never happens.

If your side's morality depends on decisions you don't make going badly, it's fundamentally broken in gameplay terms. I admit that Dragon Age did this better, as most of the moral choices have results whose quality is entirely based on opinion.

[DiebytheSword]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

"Or did we make a big damn deal out of that stuff?" - AdmiralCheez

Example - the battle for the Citadel.

One metallic cuttlefish sneak attacks the Citadel with a huge f'n army of Geth - and looses... with a sneak attack... and an army... a huge army.

And suddenly the Reapers are unstoppable... we couldn't possibly succeed.

I find the hyperbole of unstoppable hilarious.  The only people to have witnessed a Reaper extinction cycle, and record it, felt they could be beaten if the cycle was broken by letting succesive civilizations know what was coming.  If we don't include the Rachni, the Reapers are on plan D, and their element of surprise was squandered along with allowing us too much knowledge about their technological singularity. 

Oh my god, their unstoppable!

...How many times have we stopped them?

And not even Shepard, the Rachni were the first attempt, huh? It probably goes farther back than that too. Poor Sovereign, what did he do during that time, run Solitaire runtimes?

If Sovereign did indeed attempt the culling that far back, then we are significantly ahead of where we should optimally be for the trap to work properly.  1000 years of advancement is a long time over the limit.  The Rachni queen seems to believe that it was the Reapers who did it, so we'll see what we learn in ME3.

This is why I struggle to understand the logic behind the Collector Base being our DEM, our knight in glistening collector armor, our key for TIM, Ceberus human dominance!  Wait, I actually get the last one if you actually want TIM to usher in human dominance.

If you have a tool that can help you defeat the Reapers, the Reapers are going to mark that as seriously off limits, unless its worth is overstated, or not useful against the Reapers.

[InvincibleHero]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I couldn't care less what happens to Renegade decisions. What does bug me is you caring what happens to Paragon decisions when you don't take them.

Because the Renegade decision exists to avoid possible Paragon decision consequences, therefore any consequences for the Paragon decision would make the Renegade decision justified.

Except that never happens.

If your side's morality depends on decisions you don't make going badly, it's fundamentally broken in gameplay terms. I admit that Dragon Age did this better, as most of the moral choices have results whose quality is entirely based on opinion.

I love DA: O and consider it the best game IMO. However, the morality ends up similar to ME. Everything happens the same with small differences. It is easy to prevent having to kill party members or lose them. So it ends up the text at the end changes and your allies (which I never neeeded anyway) might differ dalish vs. werewolves and templars vs circle.

[mybudgee]

I honestly believe that with all that's at stake for Shep, a renegade choice might often save MORE lives.

[DiebytheSword]

mybudgee wrote...

I honestly believe that with all that's at stake for Shep, a renegade choice might often save MORE lives.

Indeed it might, and that's your call to make.  Not all of us assess threats the same.

[InvincibleHero]

mybudgee wrote...

I honestly believe that with all that's at stake for Shep, a renegade choice might often save MORE lives.

Yeah the key is might. BW is the ultimate arbiter of how things turn out. Recall Helena Blake gave up millions of credits crime syndicate for charitable works once Shepard eliminated all the competition so outcomes need not be logical no matter how well you may have thought things through.

[Xilizhra]

InvincibleHero wrote...

mybudgee wrote...

I honestly believe that with all that's at stake for Shep, a renegade choice might often save MORE lives.

Yeah the key is might. BW is the ultimate arbiter of how things turn out. Recall Helena Blake gave up millions of credits crime syndicate for charitable works once Shepard eliminated all the competition so outcomes need not be logical no matter how well you may have thought things through.

Do note that it was either that or possibly die.

[InvincibleHero]

Xilizhra wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

mybudgee wrote...

I honestly believe that with all that's at stake for Shep, a renegade choice might often save MORE lives.

Yeah the key is might. BW is the ultimate arbiter of how things turn out. Recall Helena Blake gave up millions of credits crime syndicate for charitable works once Shepard eliminated all the competition so outcomes need not be logical no matter how well you may have thought things through.

Do note that it was either that or possibly die.

Yeah like Shepard would check up on her. It was in her nature to purely lie. Since Shepard cannot read minds it would be OK leaves. HB continues as usual. Shepard dies to Collectors joins Cerberus gets Christmas e-mail from HB.

[Ryzaki]

That and why wouldn't HB (after a while of doing good work) not you know...actually change regardless of threats from Shepard.

That *does* happen you know.

[InvincibleHero]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

^ I don't understand what you're saying there, but how could Helena Blake know that he wouldn't check up on her? Or that being, y'know, a Spectre and all, he wouldn't tell the council?

Oh come on in a thread http://social.biowar...3/index/7890952I had people said paragon Shepard is not a sheriff or superhero righting wrongs.

A spectre is unlikely to have to take down a red sand syndicate as long as she does not interfere with council business. Tell the council what exactly? I let a known criminal go just like para Shep should have mentioned in his report as well multiple times over Fist anyone?  I am sure they would be real pleased on letting Balak go, HB, and Fist. Did I miss anyone?

[InvincibleHero]

Ryzaki wrote...

That and why wouldn't HB (after a while of doing good work) not you know...actually change regardless of threats from Shepard.

That *does* happen you know.

Yeah and unicorns are real. How HB survied to dismantle her criminal op and meet Shepard in ME2 is fairy tale. Second in command would put a bullet in the back of her head and take over.

Not that people cannot have changes of heart. It doesn't fit that situation.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:46 .

[InvincibleHero]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

...I'm honestly mind-boggled, trying to understand you. You're saying that Shep would be embarrassed to tell the Council that he stopped a crime syndicate, and that they should keep an eye on the leader of said crime syndicate? I'm not sure what exactly you're saying.

No he let a dangerous criminal head go scot-free with nothing but her word that she would be good.

[Homebound]

Paragons work harder to get a long term solution for their problems. Renegades on the other hand go for quick and easy results that fix problems now but will crop up as bigger problems in the future.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:56 .

[InvincibleHero]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

...I'm honestly mind-boggled, trying to understand you. You're saying that Shep would be embarrassed to tell the Council that he stopped a crime syndicate, and that they should keep an eye on the leader of said crime syndicate? I'm not sure what exactly you're saying.

No he let a dangerous criminal head go scot-free with nothing but her word that she would be good.

...and that's why you tell the Council. They have people who can check on her periodically.

So you don't think the salarian and especially the turian councilors would dress-down Shepard?  I think it is not moral to let HB go. Does doing so help the council or improve security or safety of public? No.  I believe Shepard would never mention any such thing especially to council. C-sec has no jurisdiction so Alliance would be best bet or whomever owned the planet HB had her base on. Then again Shepard would be red-faced to tell the proper chain of command. "What you just let her walk away?"

[InvincibleHero]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I do think they would give Shep a dressing-down, but they do that at every chance they get so it's no big deal.

And whether it's moral or not, that depends on your personal feelings on humans. If one felt that humans all deserved a second chance, it would be the right thing to do to let her go.

So what determines whether someone should get a second chance? ( Ironically I asked someone that in the thread I linked earlier)

Did we interrogate her and find her trustworthy or at least not complicit in murder and serious crimes? Nope. Our options were let her go no consequences or shoot it out. So why was she deserving of benefit of  doubt?

[InvincibleHero]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

So what determines whether someone should get a second chance? ( Ironically I asked someone that in the thread I linked earlier)

Did we interrogate her and find her trustworthy or at least not complicit in murder and serious crimes? Nope. Our options were let her go no consequences or shoot it out. So why was she deserving of benefit of  doubt?

She's deserving of the chance because she's human (by human I mean flesh-and-bone, mortal, not just humans>aliens) and she states that she will change. i'm not in a position to know if she's serious or not. If she IS serious, I've just murdered a person who didn't deserve it.

So someone kills your LI and professes they will change what do you do to them? She may have an likely has been complicit in killing people or at least manslaughter for ODs and crime related activities by underlings and users of product. She is guilty in my book.

[Seboist]

InvincibleHero wrote...

mybudgee wrote...

I honestly believe that with all that's at stake for Shep, a renegade choice might often save MORE lives.

Yeah the key is might. BW is the ultimate arbiter of how things turn out. Recall Helena Blake gave up millions of credits crime syndicate for charitable works once Shepard eliminated all the competition so outcomes need not be logical no matter how well you may have thought things through.

Good ol'  social worker Helena Blake, it used to be the most absurd outcome until the whole Balak situation eclipsed it.

Helena Blake: "I'm a life-long hardened criminal and I'd rather die than repent!"

*Shepard uses talk-jutsu*

Helena Blake: "By the Gods! Your words of profoud wisdom has touched the very essence of my soul! I will now disband this organization and become a social worker on Omega!"

[Lotion Soronarr]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

"Or did we make a big damn deal out of that stuff?" - AdmiralCheez

Example - the battle for the Citadel.

One metallic cuttlefish sneak attacks the Citadel with a huge f'n army of Geth - and looses... with a sneak attack... and an army... a huge army.

And suddenly the Reapers are unstoppable... we couldn't possibly succeed.

I find the hyperbole of unstoppable hilarious.  The only people to have witnessed a Reaper extinction cycle, and record it, felt they could be beaten if the cycle was broken by letting succesive civilizations know what was coming.  If we don't include the Rachni, the Reapers are on plan D, and their element of surprise was squandered along with allowing us too much knowledge about their technological singularity. 

Oh my god, their unstoppable!

...How many times have we stopped them?

And not even Shepard, the Rachni were the first attempt, huh? It probably goes farther back than that too. Poor Sovereign, what did he do during that time, run Solitaire runtimes?

Shall we ignore the fact that Sovereign didn't even shoot in the opening attack?
Shall we ignore the fact that it didn't move or even attempt to evade?
Shall we ignore the fact taht the entire 5th flet (with DN's barely took it out..WITH shep running interferrance?)
Shall we ignorethe fact it never used it's main gun?
Shall we ignore the fact the devs themselves said that wihout Shep destroying the Saren Avatar, Sovereigns shields would have lasted a lot longer, and the casulaties would have been MUCH (emphasis) higher?
Shall we ignore the fact the reapers have no strategic locations they are forced to defend, hence they can ALWAYS reteret?
Shall we ignore the fact they are faster and more manouverable, and can outmanouver us?
Shall we ignore the fact that a single reaper has a alpha strike that can take out 8 cruisers and 1 DN, while that same force can't even scratch it's painjob?
Shal lwe ignore the fact there will be thousands of repers coming?
And lastly, shall we ignore the fact of massive indoctrination, thus you will be fighting spies, traitors and your former buddies?

After all of that , you really...REALLY think the reapers can be beaten without a Deus Ex MAchina?

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

"Or did we make a big damn deal out of that stuff?" - AdmiralCheez

Example - the battle for the Citadel.

One metallic cuttlefish sneak attacks the Citadel with a huge f'n army of Geth - and looses... with a sneak attack... and an army... a huge army.

And suddenly the Reapers are unstoppable... we couldn't possibly succeed.

I find the hyperbole of unstoppable hilarious.  The only people to have witnessed a Reaper extinction cycle, and record it, felt they could be beaten if the cycle was broken by letting succesive civilizations know what was coming.  If we don't include the Rachni, the Reapers are on plan D, and their element of surprise was squandered along with allowing us too much knowledge about their technological singularity. 

Oh my god, their unstoppable!

...How many times have we stopped them?

And not even Shepard, the Rachni were the first attempt, huh? It probably goes farther back than that too. Poor Sovereign, what did he do during that time, run Solitaire runtimes?

Shall we ignore the fact that Sovereign didn't even shoot in the opening attack?
Shall we ignore the fact that it didn't move or even attempt to evade?
Shall we ignore the fact taht the entire 5th flet (with DN's barely took it out..WITH shep running interferrance?)
Shall we ignorethe fact it never used it's main gun?
Shall we ignore the fact the devs themselves said that wihout Shep destroying the Saren Avatar, Sovereigns shields would have lasted a lot longer, and the casulaties would have been MUCH (emphasis) higher?
Shall we ignore the fact the reapers have no strategic locations they are forced to defend, hence they can ALWAYS reteret?
Shall we ignore the fact they are faster and more manouverable, and can outmanouver us?
Shall we ignore the fact that a single reaper has a alpha strike that can take out 8 cruisers and 1 DN, while that same force can't even scratch it's painjob?
Shal lwe ignore the fact there will be thousands of repers coming?
And lastly, shall we ignore the fact of massive indoctrination, thus you will be fighting spies, traitors and your former buddies?

After all of that , you really...REALLY think the reapers can be beaten without a Deus Ex MAchina?

Yes.

Honestly, LS, argueing with you is hard work. We should get paid for it.