1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Omega4RelayResident]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I kill you.
Your family mourns your death.
I meet your sister.
She asks me why I killed you.
I tell her why (It had to be done / I regret it / I have no time for this)

Oh hey, renegade content.

i never met a Canadian before that would even qualify in the slightest as a Renegade. Now I can not say this any more thanks to you. This includes the crazy Canadians I had in my WoW guild .... they were total elitists but no where near being Renegade.

[Flashflame58]

StrawberryViking wrote...
Just once I want a paragon decision to bite us in the ass. It's all I ask.

I assume you mean you want their ending to be a punishment of some sort. 
If this were to happen, all of the pure-paragon players would have a gigantic b*tch fit. No one wants that to happen.

[DPSSOC]

Flashflame58 wrote...

StrawberryViking wrote...
Just once I want a paragon decision to bite us in the ass. It's all I ask.

I assume you mean you want their ending to be a punishment of some sort. 
If this were to happen, all of the pure-paragon players would have a gigantic b*tch fit. No one wants that to happen.

Or they could just have one of the many career criminals the paragons set free come back and still be a criminal.  Not reformed (Helena Blake) and not beaten and broken (Fist) but just a criminal doing the exact same thing you stopped them doing last time.  Surely that wouldn't upset too many people and it would satisfy StrawberryViking's desire to have one Paragon choice not turn up sunshine and bunnies with rainbow farts.

[Seboist]

DPSSOC wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...

StrawberryViking wrote...
Just once I want a paragon decision to bite us in the ass. It's all I ask.

I assume you mean you want their ending to be a punishment of some sort. 
If this were to happen, all of the pure-paragon players would have a gigantic b*tch fit. No one wants that to happen.

Or they could just have one of the many career criminals the paragons set free come back and still be a criminal.  Not reformed (Helena Blake) and not beaten and broken (Fist) but just a criminal doing the exact same thing you stopped them doing last time.  Surely that wouldn't upset too many people and it would satisfy StrawberryViking's desire to have one Paragon choice not turn up sunshine and bunnies with rainbow farts.

And not a great ally in the most contrived manner possible(Balak).

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I kill you.
Your family mourns your death.
I meet your sister.
She asks me why I killed you.
I tell her why (It had to be done / I regret it / I have no time for this)

Oh hey, renegade content.

Hello.
My name is Inigo Fist.
You killed my father.
Prepare to die.


(A few gunshots later)
Shepard: Who was that clown?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[Ryzaki]

...Yeah I'm a paragon and I'm headdesking over that (ooh look Balak can be reformed) crap.

I wanted that decision to bite Shep in the ass.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 03:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The Paragon equivalent.

Hello.
My name is Inigo Fist.
You spared my father.
Prepare to take these valuable war assets for use against the Reapers.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Paragon equivalent.

Hello.
My name is Inigo Fist.
You spared my father.
Prepare to take these valuable war assets for use against the Reapers.

Huh. I'd take that.

[DiebytheSword]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

No one argues that it will be an easy fight, but low roads are best left untraveled, because if you compromise yourself to defeat your enemy, he has already won.

I'd rather sacrifice whatever arbitrary method of judgement that's being applied than have the galaxy be destroyed.

More to the point, if you win a fight of extinction, you have the rest of time (or until the next fight of extinction) to take back whatever you feel you lost before.

Not, mind you, that the Reapers have some ideological goal they want us to mimick. The Reapers victory is if they kill us, not our moral compass... which has already survived far worse than the Mass Effect presented delimmas.

The Reapers debase you into some kind of chemical reaction that is self replicating and inherently flawed.  You struggle against their advance, wither and die, etc.  I am more than that, I refuse to let the Reapers label me, and worse still, behave as they predict.  It is not victory at any cost, for me it is victory because I have more worth. 

Are you more worthy to rule the galaxy than the Reapers currently do?  Or are you going to rule the galaxy because you found every cheapshot, advantage and compromise of principals available.

Either way, we answer the Reaper question, and we prove them wrong or right in the process.  I choose to answer well.

[BlueMagitek]

DiebytheSword wrote...
The Reapers debase you into some kind of chemical reaction that is self replicating and inherently flawed.  You struggle against their advance, wither and die, etc.  I am more than that, I refuse to let the Reapers label me, and worse still, behave as they predict.  It is not victory at any cost, for me it is victory because I have more worth. 

Are you more worthy to rule the galaxy than the Reapers currently do?  Or are you going to rule the galaxy because you found every cheapshot, advantage and compromise of principals available.

Either way, we answer the Reaper question, and we prove them wrong or right in the process.  I choose to answer well.

Against an armada of giant death machines that have run this routine many times before, you wish to face them without cheapshots or advantages?  Wow, someone must be waiting for a Deus Ex Machina.

I don't mind Paragons, but you're ridiculous; don't think that, Paragon or Renegade, you're going to fight fair against the Reapers.

[DiebytheSword]

BlueMagitek wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...
The Reapers debase you into some kind of chemical reaction that is self replicating and inherently flawed.  You struggle against their advance, wither and die, etc.  I am more than that, I refuse to let the Reapers label me, and worse still, behave as they predict.  It is not victory at any cost, for me it is victory because I have more worth. 

Are you more worthy to rule the galaxy than the Reapers currently do?  Or are you going to rule the galaxy because you found every cheapshot, advantage and compromise of principals available.

Either way, we answer the Reaper question, and we prove them wrong or right in the process.  I choose to answer well.

Against an armada of giant death machines that have run this routine many times before, you wish to face them without cheapshots or advantages?  Wow, someone must be waiting for a Deus Ex Machina.

I don't mind Paragons, but you're ridiculous; don't think that, Paragon or Renegade, you're going to fight fair against the Reapers.

Don't take me out of context, I said EVERY.  I don't play pure paragon anyway.  I'm looking for ways that don't change who I am or what I am about. 

I intend to beat them on my terms, not theirs.

[GodWood]

I'm reminded of an A Song of Ice and Fire quote:

“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely. And Rhaegar died. ”

[DiebytheSword]

GodWood wrote...

I'm reminded of an A Song of Ice and Fire quote:

“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely. And Rhaegar died. ”

Good for Rhaegar, he is remembered, how will you be remembered GodWood?

[Yezdigerd]

DPSSOC wrote...
Or they could just have one of the many career criminals the paragons set free come back and still be a criminal.  Not reformed (Helena Blake) and not beaten and broken (Fist) but just a criminal doing the exact same thing you stopped them doing last time.

The amusing thing is that renegades can turn Helena Blake into a social worker as well, they even need a lower persuasion check to do it, yet the stretch of it is always a paragon issue.
And really if you chose to lynch Fist in front of witnesses, you obviously are playing the game for the lulz. It's really no wonder BW aren't bothered supplying a replacement character.

Also BW can't win, if the character you killed isn't there, renegade are punished with less content, and if they work out a replacement, renegade choices didn't matter.

[GodWood]

A mad tyrant would be the dream.

[DiebytheSword]

GodWood wrote...

A mad tyrant would be the dream.

Fair enough, we stand diametrically opposed then, and any measure of my word "worth" will be very different from yours.

[Medhia Nox]

Well - the issue with being "fair" against the Reapers is: "What constitutes fair when fighting something that is supposed to be more intelligent, more powerful, and more prepared than you are?" That leaves a wide berth for a lot of actions Shepard might take and still be "fair".

However - it is not always being fair against the Reapers. More often it is - "Are we even worthy of winning?"

Not everyone has a deified view of humanity. Since Darwin's terribly boring book - humanity has increasingly starting thinking of itself as the pinnacle of evolution (often just replacing "Gods divine race") - a terribly flawed assertion since that presumes that 1) Evolution has a goal or pinnacle to achieve. 2) That sapience is that pinnacle.

Of course - evolution isn't actually about finding pinnacles and bests or even survival of the fittest (sometimes it's survival of the status quo - especially in environments that aren't notably harsh) - but the layman has been fed the "fittest" quote for decades now.

This leaves a great deal of room for debate on what is the "most worthy" of survival.

Both sides say that the galaxy must "earn" survival - but many Paragons have some variation of "We must earn it with some semblance of our humanity left." while many Renegades have some variation of "We must earn it even if it meant carving our brains out of our skulls and replacing them with machine minds better fit to fight the Reapers."

Are you willing to sacrifice humanity - to save humanity? That is a compelling thought to some. I imagine some Renegades find it thought provoking to bring humanity to the brink of utter ruin as a measure to save it - even if only for the future. Perhaps some small cache of humans left - after several hundred years - clawing and scraping their way back to the level of social sophistication they "presumably" possess in Mass Effect.

Of course - for most Paragons the answer is simple. "No" - but I find it no less thought provoking. Something MUST be sacrificed - so what will it be then? In stories where a man is not willing to sacrifice the "other" - he must sacrifice "self", and most often - "self in total". This often means death - but I find death as a kind of victory. You win - and then die - game over.

The Renegade seems unappealing to me - because it's "I'll sacrifice what I want." How hard is it to be selfish? Yeah - you know nobody is looking - and you know that the stories written about you will only speak of your victory - not the means by which you achieved it. 

The Paragon should suffer - in that I agree with Renegade players (though I despise any notion of fairness - I find it a purile request) - because unlike a Renegade who's willing to throw entire races at the Reapers - the Paragon, while trying to diminish how many races are thrown at the Reapers - must then sacrfice of his own "worth".

For another example - I think most Paragons are about the "journey" - while most Renegades are about the "ends justifying the means".

It is not about standing face to face with a Reaper and "dueling" - it is about what I do to others and myself to obtain victory. (at least - it is for a Paragon)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2011 - 04:45 .

[DiebytheSword]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Well - the issue with being "fair" against the Reapers is: "What constitutes fair when fighting something that is supposed to be more intelligent, more powerful, and more prepared than you are?" That leaves a wide berth for a lot of actions Shepard might take and still be "fair".

However - it is not always being fair against the Reapers. More often it is - "Are we even worthy of winning?"

Not everyone has a deified view of humanity. Since Darwin's terribly boring book - humanity has increasingly starting thinking of itself as the pinnacle of evolution (often just replacing "Gods divine race") - a terribly flawed assertion since that presumes that 1) Evolution has a goal or pinnacle to achieve. 2) That sapience is that pinnacle.

Of course - evolution isn't actually about finding pinnacles and bests or even survival of the fittest (sometimes it's survival of the status quo - especially in environments that aren't notably harsh) - but the layman has been fed the "fittest" quote for decades now.

This leaves a great deal of room for debate on what is the "most worthy" of survival.

Both sides say that the galaxy must "earn" survival - but many Paragons have some variation of "We must earn it with some semblance of our humanity left." while many Renegades have some variation of "We must earn it even if it meant carving our brains out of our skulls and replacing them with machine minds better fit to fight the Reapers."

Are you willing to sacrifice humanity - to save humanity? That is a compelling thought to some. I imagine some Renegades find it thought provoking to bring humanity to the brink of utter ruin as a measure to save it - even if only for the future. Perhaps some small cache of humans left - after several hundred years - clawing and scraping their way back to the level of social sophistication they "presumably" possess in Mass Effect.

Of course - for most Paragons the answer is simple. "No" - but I find it no less thought provoking. Something MUST be sacrificed - so what will it be then? In stories where a man is not willing to sacrifice the "other" - he must sacrifice "self", and most often - "self in total". This often means death - but I find death as a kind of victory. You win - and then die - game over.

The Renegade seems unappealing to me - because it's "I'll sacrifice what I want." How hard is it to be selfish? Yeah - you know nobody is looking - and you know that the stories written about you will only speak of your victory - not the means by which you achieved it.  The Paragon should suffer - in that I agree with Renegade players (though I despise any notion of fairness - I find it a purile request) - because unlike a Renegade who's willing to throw entire races at the Reapers - the Paragon, while trying to diminish how many races are thrown at the Reapers - must then sacrfice of his own "worth".

For another example - I think most Paragons are about the "journey" - while most Renegades are about the "ends justifying the means".

It is not about standing face to face with a Reaper and "dueling" - it is about what I do to others and myself to obtain victory. (at least - it is for a Paragon)

Well said, and it captures the essence of what I was trying to say very well.  I am not willing to sacrifice who I am and my way of life for victory in the real world. 

I have no true fear of death, only what I leave behind when I'm gone.

[Dave of Canada]

Wouldn't be surprised if we saw this as an email in ME3:

Greetings Shepard,

Ever since you let me escape, I felt horrible because of the murder I committed with the Eclipse. Finally seeing the mistakes of my decisions, I decided to take control of the Eclipse mercenaries.

Now I'm committing suicide (for the horrible crimes I've committed) and sending the Eclipse to you, good luck reclaiming Earth! I know you can do it!

Signed, Elnora.

DiebytheSword wrote...

Good for Rhaegar, he is remembered, how will you be remembered GodWood?

Alive.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[DiebytheSword]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Good for Rhaegar, he is remembered, how will you be remembered GodWood?

Alive.

Nothing lives forever.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:32 .

[BlueMagitek]

I can accept your argument, Medhia; I hardly see how the majority of renegade actions result in humanity losing humanity.

Nothing lives forever but Reapers. ~_^

[Medhia Nox]

@Dave of Canada: E Coli bacteria is "alive" - I don't see anything notably significant there.

@BlueMagitek - it's true that Mass Effect doesn't go too deep down the rabbit hole... but what kind of a man punches a woman reporter because he's tired of her disingenuous assertions (or worse, just for kicks which is why gamers did it)? 

There are Renegade options I agree with - I destroyed the Heretic geth for example.

It's not as much the actions - as it is the mindset (do whatever it takes to survive) - that I find craven and unworthy of pursuing (in most cases) 

I have stated before that I believe Bioware did a disservice to the Renegade option - not because of "unfairness" - but because it's got three different personalities crammed into it. "Stoic pragmatist" - "Insufferable Douchebag" - and "Ultraviolent Sociopath"

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:41 .

[DiebytheSword]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Nothing lives forever but Reapers. ~_^

Reapers don't live forever either, unless you let them.