1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Arcadian Legend]

It's most likely that both Paragon and Renegade choicws would equal victory in the end, though the means, methods and ways plus outcomes of getting there would be different.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

See, you're just repeating the same pattern. I guess you can't change even if you wanted. And you have been insulting, if you think I cannot notice the difference of an insult and a 'well meant advice' then it is just another evidence that you either don't know better or you are pretending. Your false claims accompanied by insults don't impress me at all. I merely pointed out that it is poor behaviour and usually a sign of the person using it being wrong, and knowing it. This may work at your home, but not where I come from. And it doesn't work in the internet.

Everything you claim to be some sort disproval of my points I have already admitted from start. Taking sentences out of context just to make a point is rather poor too tbh. If you have difficulty to read what I mean as soon as you need to take 2 or 3 sentences together to get the overarcing sense then I am sorry.

We can discuss the Reaper. So there was a Reaper and he had shields an weapons that are advanced to ours. Ok and they can be used by us without creating a reaper? Like robots? I have not seen any of these robots on the CB, but maybe we are much smarter than Reapers and we can do what they couldn't. In that case I'd have to question the Reaper threat, because they are obviously not as superiour. Sorry, but if they had 2 dozen Ymir, Shep probably could not have taken the base. But all they throw at us are, indeed, throwaway enemies. No sign of superior tech that we have not found on other missions. Like the reaper weapon on horizon.

Ok why would it be stupid for Cerberus to betray the whole galaxy? Ask them in ME3. Ask Saren. You put it as if it is impossible they would do that, yet it has been done and will be done again. Maybe your Shep has lost his memory when he died, or he thinks if something happens once everyone learns of it and it can never happen at all. Anyway, you called me naive, which I just happen to find a bit funny right now.

And even this point I will repeat for you because you didn't get it first time, and second time:
I hereby declare that research is a good thing and will eventually yield progress. I hereby declare that it is possible to make leaps in science if you reasearch alien technology. In your whole preaching you seem to have missed that. I said it cannot be expected to make a leap like the last time discorving mass effect technology by keeping the CB. Of course you can just assume or hope you make another leap by researching the base. But you cannot expect it. Not if you are even half realistic. Wishful thinking, nothing more.

Next, again repeat from above because you didn't get it. It may backfire, especially in the hands of Cerberus, and the harm done may be much worse than any benefits in the moment. Maybe not in long term, but we only have that much time. You obviously don't live in a world where actual reseach can take years or even decades or why do I have to make this point again and again? It is probably silly of me to even argue this part of the discussion because you have made it clear that the fact that we are under time pressure and rushing things are good things. As I said, not argueing this because ... well ... I could as well argue that the sky is blue, and the grass is green and you would still argue that it is the other way round because you would prefer it that way. Or that maybe god made a mistake. Whatever.

Also you seem to have forgot that EDI was logged into the station. She probably downloaded as much important information as possible while the team was making it's way into the station and back out. I doubt there is too much on the base to discover left. Unless they are having infomation stored in books or written on the cave walls.

TIM doesn't want the base because of information, he wants it to rebuild the reaper, and as a weapon if possible. I say it again. If you give it to TIM you likely see the base including a Cerberus made Reaper again. And I am pretty sure you'd still argue that it has been the smartest choice at that time. Whatever, I already admitted that there are maybe good points for keeping the base. It still is a mistake. On many levels. Understand this or don't, I grow beyond caring. I know it would come to this, that's why I was reluctant to get in the argument with you to begin with. Because you don't see reason. Ever. I have never seen you admitting anything in the entirety I am on this board. And you never will, Mr. All-Knowing. 

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 décembre 2011 - 01:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[/quote]
See, you're just repeating the same pattern. I guess you can't change even if you wanted. And you have been insulting, if you think I cannot notice the difference of an insult and a 'well meant advice' then it is just another evidence that you either don't know better or you are pretending. Your false claims accompanied by insults don't impress me at all. I merely pointed out that it is poor behaviour and usually a sign of the person using it being wrong, and knowing it. This may work at your home, but not where I come from. And it doesn't work in the internet.[/quote]


:lol::lol::D:D

Bravo good Sir! I needed a laugh right now.


[quote]
Everything you claim to be some sort disproval of my points I have already admitted from start. Taking sentences out of context just to make a point is rather poor too tbh. If you have difficulty to read what I mean as soon as you need to take 2 or 3 sentences together to get the overarcing sense then I am sorry.[/quote]

Out of context? No, not really.


[quote]
We can discuss the Reaper. So there was a Reaper and he had shields an weapons that are advanced to ours. Ok and they can be used by us without creating a reaper? Like robots? I have not seen any of these robots on the CB, but maybe we are much smarter than Reapers and we can do what they couldn't. In that case I'd have to question the Reaper threat, because they are obviously not as superiour. Sorry, but if they had 2 dozen Ymir, Shep probably could not have taken the base. But all they throw at us are, indeed, throwaway enemies. No sign of superior tech that we have not found on other missions. Like the reaper weapon on horizon.[/quote]

Please..your'e again resorting to desperate measures and broken logic in an effort to salvage something from the burning debris that is your argument. Of course you can make use of a weapon wihout building a full reaper.
It's like saiyng we can't use a machinegun on a tank without the tank.

As for hte collectors and theri defenses . Their centurion thiniges are sorta YMIR equalents. As for wahy they didn't have more of them - because Sheppard and his 3-man team have to win.
Not to say they didn't have more of them, but maybe they couldn't bring them in position in time? the base is massive after all.

The Collectors themevles are inforior to reapers. And we're after reaper tech - Collector tech is just a bonus.


[quote]
Ok why would it be stupid for Cerberus to betray the whole galaxy? Ask them in ME3. Ask Saren. You put it as if it is impossible they would do that, yet it has been done and will be done again. Maybe your Shep has lost his memory when he died, or he thinks if something happens once everyone learns of it and it can never happen at all. Anyway, you called me naive, which I just happen to find a bit funny right now.[/quote]

I never said impossible.  I said unlikely. I said stupid. And both of those are true.
Do you really expect another person to betray you when you're both facing immient death from a far greater threat?

As for the underlined...When did it happen before? Citation needed.


[quote]
I said it cannot be expected to make a leap like the last time discorving mass effect technology by keeping the CB. Of course you can just assume or hope you make another leap by researching the base. But you cannot expect it. Not if you are even half realistic. Wishful thinking, nothing more.[/quote]

You cannot expect it?  Why not?
You just say it without any reasoning behind it.
You said it yourself - last time we researched tech from an advanced race our tech leaper 200 years. And now we have tech of an evern more advanced race, and suddenly we cna't expect another leap?

And you use the word relaistic in the same sentance as that claim?
You trollin me, right?... Right?


[quote]
Next, again repeat from above because you didn't get it. It may backfire, especially in the hands of Cerberus, and the harm done may be much worse than any benefits in the moment. [/quote]

Again, proof.  Arguments to back that up.


[quote]
Maybe not in long term, but we only have that much time. You obviously don't live in a world where actual reseach can take years or even decades or why do I have to make this point again and again? It is probably silly of me to even argue this part of the discussion because you have made it clear that the fact that we are under time pressure and rushing things are good things. As I said, not argueing this because ... well ... I could as well argue that the sky is blue, and the grass is green and you would still argue that it is the other way round because you would prefer it that way. Or that maybe god made a mistake. Whatever.[/quote]

And what part of "we dont' know when the reapers will arrive so we best start researching now and get as much as we can, as fast as we can" did you miss?

So exactly what was your point..if you had any?



[quote]
Also you seem to have forgot that EDI was logged into the station. She probably downloaded as much important information as possible while the team was making it's way into the station and back out. I doubt there is too much on the base to discover left. Unless they are having infomation stored in books or written on the cave walls.[/quote]

Assumption iwhout any fact to back it up.
You just ASSUME that EDI managed ot hack into ALL the databses and get ALL of the usefull data. You also assume that everything that is usefull is stored in a computer databse. Which is redicolous.

Bits and pieces of technogy can be worth far more than jsut blueprints..That's assumign you even GET blueprints for various stuff, which is highly unlikely.
Not to mentio nthat actualyl possesing the machinery used to build a reaper and it's parts (like for example, the reaper larva mouth lazor) is a great boon in itself.


[quote]
TIM doesn't want the base because of information, he wants it to rebuild the reaper, and as a weapon if possible. I say it again. If you give it to TIM you likely see the base including a Cerberus made Reaper again.[/quote]

Again..proof? Waht you suggest is contrary to common sense, practicality and tIM's cahracter...


[quote]
And I am pretty sure you'd still argue that it has been the smartest choice at that time.[/quote]

Given that I have been arguing from day 1that trying to build a human reaper is the dumbest move in history...no.


[quote]
Whatever, I already admitted that there are maybe good points for keeping the base. It still is a mistake. On many levels. Understand this or don't, I grow beyond caring. I know it would come to this, that's why I was reluctant to get in the argument with you to begin with. Because you don't see reason. Ever. I have never seen you admitting anything in the entirety I am on this board. And you never will, Mr. All-Knowing. [/quote]

Blowing the base up is a mistake. There are no really good reasons for blowing it up. Only flawed reasoning and blinders. The bigger picture is far beyond you.

As for you not caring - I'm really tired of you repeating that you do not care in every post of yours.
Which is kinda contrary to your statement.
As for what you see - that's no concern of mine. I have been wrong before and I did admit it, altough such moments are rare enough, since I don't enter a discussuon without good arguments...unlike you.

So yeah..you wont' see me admiting  I'm wrong ...well, not against you at least. There's nothing to admit in this case.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Andorfiend wrote...
You can preserve it for TIM, except that:
A) Cerberus has never done anything in their history that does not come back to bite them in the ass. Including Project Lazarus.

TIM can't be trusted. He spends the entire game betraying you, in stupid and counter-productive ways that show that he trusts you less than a rabid Krogan.

C) No Cerberus project has ever researched Reaper tech and not been indoctrinated. It happens over and over again. They have the worst lab safety record in the history of mad science.

A) Incorrect. I can make a long list here, but I won't bother. Do some researhc before making grand claims.

Incorrect. TIM is entirely predicable and can be trusted. He doesn't spend the entire game betraying you...the very way yowrod it show your bias...since 1 moment certanly doesn't qualify as the entire game and his action can hardly be classified as betrayl.

D) Again Incorrect. 3 out of 3. Bravo.

[Andorfiend]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
You can preserve it for TIM, except that:
A) Cerberus has never done anything in their history that does not come back to bite them in the ass. Including Project Lazarus.

TIM can't be trusted. He spends the entire game betraying you, in stupid and counter-productive ways that show that he trusts you less than a rabid Krogan.

C) No Cerberus project has ever researched Reaper tech and not been indoctrinated. It happens over and over again. They have the worst lab safety record in the history of mad science.

A) Incorrect. I can make a long list here, but I won't bother. Do some researhc before making grand claims.

Incorrect. TIM is entirely predicable and can be trusted. He doesn't spend the entire game betraying you...the very way yowrod it show your bias...since 1 moment certanly doesn't qualify as the entire game and his action can hardly be classified as betrayl.

D) Again Incorrect. 3 out of 3. Bravo.

Really? That's the best troll you could come up with? Pitiful.

I'll go easy on you, please cite a single example from your claimed 'long list' and we'll go on from there with actual data rather than airy assurances that what I saw on my screen was not what actually happened.

[BlueMagitek]

This again? I'm sure Saphra has the main list, but if you're just asking for one:

Arc Projector

[Labrev]

 <-- debating whether I should go back and look for responses to my last posts in here, or let it die.

Am I missing anything worthwile to respond to?

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 08 décembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Stanley Woo]

I think people, especially those whose comments are getting a little heated and personal, should take a step back and agree to disagree. Play nice, people.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lotion Soronnar: You have invoked He On Terra - and you have blasphemed in His Holy Name.

Especially if that quote is from the Inquisition War books where he speaks to Jac Draco - the only time after his internment on the Golden Throne when he speaks to a mortal directly (that I am aware of). Books who's "canon" is seriously brought into question. Example: "the Star Child cult is a mere footnote in real 40K canon - and is hunted down by the Inquisition"

And look at the Imperium of Man - it's failing because they're degenerate scum. They feed Chaos making it stronger because of that very mindset you've pointed out.

In fact Lotion - you've proven my point completely. The Imperium of Man is EXACTLY why a man must hold himself up to a higher standard - weakness of character only feeds the Chaos Gods.

====

Anyway - back to Mass Effect.

Organic life suffers in the real world - humanity is the greatest perpetrator of crimes against "organic life" - and what would you care if you destroyed a hill of ants?

There is no argument that can ever be made - especially in a world where you don't consider the possibility of spirit - where you can prove the relevance of mankind.

The world is over 4.5 billion years old - and humanity has been around for 50,000 years old (200,000 for pure genetics - but the number's are hardly relevant with these sizes) - the universe 13.5 billion years.

The human race doesn't even register as the blink of a human eye - or a single breath - or any number of other things never noticed during a human lifetime.

So all this "I've gotta do all these Renegade things to do the noble thing of saving humanity." comes off just as self-righteous as anything a Paragon would do.

Justifying your actions so "organic life no longer need suffer" - is also simply rhetoric.

I believe a compelling argument could be made about the Reapers saving the diverse viability of life forms by culling sapient species - and the inherent suicidal nature of organic sapience (and the Reapers purpose of destroying it) would be exactly what I would have made ME about in the end (while leaving the current Cycle to survive - and have to deal with the fact that the bad guys actually won)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:13 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden - may I ask, what "greater things"? How can you scientifically evaluate a "greater thing"? What is your basis for comparison?

And to answer why I don't just "lay down and die" - it's simple - because information is never destroyed in the Universe. What I have done (no matter how infinitesimally small) - is permanently marked upon the fabric of reality - this is science fact (see: Black Holes).

When that information is re-used - and I believe it will be, potentially for the next universe - I want it to be information based on certain qualities I do not believe those who champion the Renegade path possess (or possess in large amounts).

Call it a gambit for a better next universe without base impulses which I find to be weak and pathetic - fear of death being one, and potentially the largest, of them.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Andorfiend wrote...

And here I disagree. There are some stupid "paragon" decisions. E.G: Letting Balak go to save a woman who was willing to sacrifice her own brother to stop Balak, thereby dishonoring her own morals and sacrifice and letting a would be terrorist mass murderer loose into the galaxy.

Or stopping Jack from killing a psychotic who wanted to systematically torture children.

But on the whole the "I do what I must" renegade decisions are the kind of thing that sound good, if you have absolutely no appreciation for history or ability to learn from the past.  The most obvious example of this is the collector base.

You can preserve it for TIM, except that:
A) Cerberus has never done anything in their history that does not come back to bite them in the ass. Including Project Lazarus.

TIM can't be trusted. He spends the entire game betraying you, in stupid and counter-productive ways that show that he trusts you less than a rabid Krogan.

C) No Cerberus project has ever researched Reaper tech and not been indoctrinated. It happens over and over again. They have the worst lab safety record in the history of mad science.

Dont bother he will find some way to imply that you are crazy.... I mentioned these points to him already at least once a month for the past 6 months.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A) Incorrect. I can make a long list here, but I won't bother. Do some researhc before making grand claims.

Incorrect. TIM is entirely predicable and can be trusted. He doesn't spend the entire game betraying you...the very way yowrod it show your bias...since 1 moment certanly doesn't qualify as the entire game and his action can hardly be classified as betrayl.

D) Again Incorrect. 3 out of 3. Bravo.

HEY BOROMIR PUT THE RING OF POWER DOWN AND WALK AWAY!

A) You can go through the SB records on Cerberus activities and a few of the plans they had fell appart and they had to correct them somehow. In addition all of those projects Cerberus ran in ME1 that you stopped as Shep... remember those? I count them as a failure. Oh wait why did the Project Lazarus research station ho berserk with tampered Mechs..... erhhemm... remember Miranda shot him and he was Second in command of Project Lazarus. DONT TRY TO BELITTLE PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG. He did his research and so did I.

The fact that TIM is comming after you in ME3 full force with all of Cerberus, despite whether you gave him the CB or not, means you are litterally crazy for thinking TIM can be trusted.

TIM: "I'm going to kill you Shepard just because I feel like it."

Shep: "It's okay... I trust you."

TIM:        /facepalm

What part of TIM and Cerberus are trying to kill you in ME3 dont you understand?

C) The tech smuggled away from the Citadel (the remains of Sovereign that the EDI anti-Reaper algorythms are based on and the research done on Paul Grayson) DO NOT COUNT. There was not enough of Nazara left to actually indoctrinate the researchers. The indoctrination protocols and methods were programmed in the salvaged tech but were not OPERATIONAL. For gods sake I almost took that verbatum from the book. Thats how they studied Indoctrination so fully without falling suceptible.

However do you remember the Derelict Reaper in ME2? Feeling foolish yet? Soooo many husks! There is no evidence that the CB did not have some form of Reaper tech capable of indoctrination. There is more evidence that it had the tech because... well it was a Reaper factory. Reapers indoctrinate. Ill let you make the connection there.

Jeez you need to lighten up and admit you are wrong.... even the new leaked stuff hints at TIM being what I always suspected him to be.

[GodWood]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Dont bother he will find some way to imply that you are crazy.... I mentioned these points to him already at least once a month for the past 6 months.

They're not good points.

[Omega4RelayResident]

GodWood wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Dont bother he will find some way to imply that you are crazy.... I mentioned these points to him already at least once a month for the past 6 months.

They're not good points.

In your opinion.... which I can respect.... but the majority of the forums seems to have settled on the fact that TIM needs to be blown out of an airlock.

@Mr. Woo.... We are trying to play nice in this debate.... but it gets frustrating when you tell a Renegade:

Paragon: TIM is evil.

Renegade: No proof.

Paragon: But he tried to kill you.

Renegade: Oh he was just trolling.

etc.

When the Cerberus cheerleaders are totally dissmissive about what we lay down as proof and yet we consider their every argument until it makes our skin crawl. Thats why we are the Paragons and they are the Renegades.

I cant wait for the release day so I can rub it in the Renegades faces.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:59 .

[GodWood]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
In your opinion.... which I can respect.... but the majority of the forums seems to have settled on the fact that TIM needs to be blown out of an airlock.

Majority opinion =/= what is right.

And why does TIM need to be blown out of an airlock?

Modifié par GodWood, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:57 .

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So yeah..you wont' see me admiting  I'm wrong ...well, not against you at least. There's nothing to admit in this case.

I have no doubt you believe that. It's smilies now? Hmm ..no, don't make you more creditable. I am out of this discussion for this thread's and Stan's sake. I can at least admit a mistake. It was a mistake to try reason with you. I'll be around here in half a year to see you weasel out after ME3 is released. I am just saying this, the only person you ever convinced of anything is you yourself. Which I wouldn't consider a real accomplishment tbh.

[GodWood]

Fixing.

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Paragon: TIM is evil.

Renegade: Why?

Paragon: But he tried to kill you.

Renegade: His intent was not to kill you. It was a tactical maneurver that payed off in your favour.

[AlexXIV]

GodWood wrote...

Fixing.

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Paragon: TIM is evil.

Renegade: Why?

Paragon: But he tried to kill you.

Renegade: His intent was not to kill you. It was a tactical maneurver that payed off in your favour.

You know what I don't understand? Why would someone believe anything TIM said. If I read this it is like TIM himself writing it. I don't get either how renegades claim to be practical and realistic and then follow a hologram as if it was some sort of god. For all we know he could be an AI. Or worse.

[Omega4RelayResident]

GodWood wrote...

Fixing.

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Paragon: TIM is evil.

Renegade: Why?

Paragon: But he tried to kill you.

Renegade: His intent was not to kill you. It was a tactical maneurver that payed off in your favour.

Me dying is somehow in my favor? This isnt Star Wars. "You may strike me down but I will become more powrfull than you can possibly imagine."

Remember you are not INVINCIBLE in the game... you just have a RESTART MISSION button. TIM's calculations could have been wrong... after all he thought I was going to hand the CB to him... and Miranda quit too.

Tactical maneuvers into a persistant state of producing sub-par results.

[GodWood]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Me dying is somehow in my favor? This isnt Star Wars. "You may strike me down but I will become more powrfull than you can possibly imagine."

You could have died, yes. Just like you could have died looking for Liara on Therum, fighting the thorian on Feros, stopping Saren on Virmire etc. Cerberus isn't the only one who sends Shepard on 'life threatening' missions. If your Shepard does have an issue with being sent on risky missions perhaps he shouldn't even be in the military.

Remember you are not INVINCIBLE in the game... you just have a RESTART MISSION button. TIM's calculations could have been wrong...

Fortunately they weren't

after all he thought I was going to hand the CB to him... and Miranda quit too.

"I knew you'd choke on the tough decisions".
But yes even he couldn't have predicted his top operative would do a complete 180. But he is forgiven. Even I didn't think Bioware's characterisation was that bad.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:29 .

[Medhia Nox]

@GodWood: - I'd like to use a "V for Vendetta" quote. "I have not come for what you hoped to do - I have come for what did."

I do not care if someone deceives me for what they perceive is my "own good" - there was no prior example of him giving me information and me bungling it up - so his assumption that I would somehow mismanage the truth was based on his own pathological need for control.

For me - it means simply that he and I cannot - ever - come to any form of accord. I worked with TIM because the game made me - and because he provided me with resources so I could save people.

====

Potentially worth stating - I don't find TIM evil, I find him utterly sad and small.

A little man terrified at his own smallness - grasping at more than he can handle in an effort of defiance - it is no wonder he has mismanaged Cerberus.

====

@Saphra Deden: Fine things to try to improve - and those may be your ideals - I certainly don't take issue with the first two.

Why the worried face - you disagree with current phyics?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:42 .