1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden: If that were true - I would have an issue working for a boss.

I will gladly follow and serve - without question - someone who I respect. I have seen nothing of TIM that I respect - and, were I to metagame - even less so (given that his entire history for doing this is cause someone or something butt hurt him in the past)

====

And I suppose I should clarify that statement - if my brother were to decieve me for what he percieves as 'my own good' - I would certainly give him the benefit of the doubt - even if I asked him 'why' he thought it necessary.

It's the fact that the ME version of Dr. Evil did it - that I have an issue with.

Talk about Armchair General... TIM is the very definition.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:45 .

[AlexXIV]

TIM doesn't even talk to you face to face. Who in their right mind would put that much trust in a person who fears to meet you eye to eye. It's TIM's own fault really that people don't trust him. And not just Shepard. I mean precaustions and all are fine. But to establish a certain level of trust you have to lower your guard at least a bit. Nobody trusts someone who doesn't trust anyone.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[Medhia Nox]

First off - let's clarify. I am not 'angry' with a video game character - TIM isn't worth my time and ME 2 forced me to deal with him. Please stop requesting I find him compelling.

I was talking about real life Saphra - working for someone in "real life" - you do know what that is? (real life - not work - maybe you don't work, I wouldn't know)  Since you decided to say how incapable I am at working for a boss - I assure you, my bosses 'in real life' are very pleased with both my work ethic and my loyalty.

====

You presume to know my criteria for "respect" Saphra - which you don't. I thought you were the master of logic on these boards? Isn't it beneath you to throw out base accusations and snide comments?

====

So I'm a power hungry freak if I question TIM - but I'm a sycophant on the level of Tali and Garrus if I serve someone.

I see

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I do not care if someone deceives me for what they perceive is my "own good" - there was no prior example of him giving me information and me bungling it up -

So he should wait for you to potentially **** up a mission first?

You realize it wasn't because he really feared you bunbling things so much as he feared the Collector's perceptiveness, right? If he had no faith in you he wouldn't have bothered sending you into that trap in the first place. You were a big investment for him, he won't throw away your life pointlessly.

I think you have a bit of an inflated opinion of your own importance though. You can't see the greater objective, you can only see yourself and your part in it, or the part you think you should have. It's why you resent so much "need to know" when it comes to information. You think you need to know everything, and you don't. TIM proved that with that mission. You are not the center of the universe and your well being is not the priority of the Collector operation. You are just another cog in the machine, perhaps a shiny and relatively important cog, but not necessarily essential.

You claim TIM is desperate to grasp at power but I think you are doing the same thing. That's why you are so up in arms about TIM's manipulation of you during the Collector ship assault. You just can't handle somebody seeing you as a subordinate and not an equal or superior.

This fight is devolving into an individualism/collectivism argument.  People are at odds on this in the real world, and it is something we are not likely to ever agree on.

You assert that we overstate our importance as individuals, we assert that you overstate the control a group or a cause should have over an individual.  While I'm not prepared to say your view or opinion is something that makes you less intelligent than you are, I am prepare to say I will never agree because of basic philosphical difference between us.

You assert that we are shiny cogs, but still part of the machine.  We assert that we break the mold with relish, and refuse to turn as designed.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Saphra Deden: If that were true - I would have an issue working for a boss.

Oh but you do. That's why you are so angry at TIM for withholding information from you no matter the reason. You think he should be treating you like an equal, a partner. You aren't his equal though, you aren't his partner. You are the muscle, but really you are just a tool. TIM is the brains, he's the man in charge despite what you (and what he might want you to) think.

TIM does all the serious planning, he allocates all the resources, he scouts out the potential recruits, he provides all the military assets you need, he directs your major operations.

All Shepard does is rally the troops in the field and make tactical decisions on the ground. Important, but not nearly at TIM's level.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I will gladly follow and serve - without question -someone who I respect.

Oh, how admirable.

I think Tali and Garrus fall into your camp. I have more respect for the VS because they are willing to question and part with people they respect.

An alliance of convenience does not make your ally your boss, unless you chose to defer to him.  Those who do not, are in fact, not in his employ, but using him for a mutual goal.

For all of TIMs power and influence, he could never accomplish what is accomplished on the ground.  Thus the power is in my hands, and not his, regardless of what he points to, pays for or plans.  There is no denying that TIM is important in ME2, but neither is there denying that Shepard is as well.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

You assert that we are shiny cogs,
but still part of the machine.  We assert that we break the mold with
relish, and refuse to turn as designed.

Being unique is not automatically a good thing.

Quite correct, which is why individual character, like for instance Jack Harper's character, is important from an individualists point of view.

Personal freedom requires both strength of character and responsibility for one's actions.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TIM doesn't even talk to you face to face. Who in their right mind would put that much trust in a person who fears to meet you eye to eye.

Hackett never met you eye to eye until Arrival, did you trust him? The Council never really met you eye to eye either.

How primitive can you be? Must TIM face you in mortal combat first? Or how about an arm wrestle?

All you should need to trust him is the explanation for his actions and the results. In ME2 his explanations are all very reasonable and they all pay off more than sufficiently.

He lured the Collectors into a trap on Horizon with allowed you to save the colony. He lead the Collectors by the nose with the Collector ship and was thus able to pinpoint the IFF, ensuring that sending you to the derelict Reaper was a necessary action. His reasons for wishing to save the Collector base were sound too.

His forethought to ensure you had a stealth frigate, a team of diverse and dedicated specialists (he cautions you to clear all their consciences), and a new one-of-a-kind A.I., was invaluable to your success.

So he's more than proved himself.

Well either he proved himself or he is just very clever. I don't need to armwrestle him, that's not what I meant. It is a question of honor actually. I mean it is basically the same as with the internet. You can claim anything here and never need to back anything up. Not sayting TIM never backs anything up, his plans 'seem' to work. But that's really all we know. We don't know what his plans are beyond what he tells us. You don't meet Hacket, but if he wasn't real we would know. Same with the Council. For the simple reason that they are not always holographs. There are people around them, who know people. For example I need not meet Barak Obama in person to believe he exists. But for example a guy like Osama Bin Laden I wouldn't know. Because he was not a public person. It would be difficult for Hackett to fulfill his duties as an Admiral if he never spoke to anyone in person. I don't even know if anyone of Cerberus has ever met TIM in person. He is not called the illusive man for no reason.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:07 .

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

An alliance of convenience does not make your ally your boss, unless you chose to defer to him.

It does when you are working under them and that is exactly what you are doing in ME2. You are responding to polite orders from TIM ("pick up Mordin Solus, pick up X, go to Horizon, go to the Collector ship, go to the derelict Reaper, ect...), you are on his pay roll, you are using his assets in the form of ships, weapons, personnel, and other equipment. 

Then I suppose again, we will have to agree to disagree.  He has offered those things to me with no condition of employment.  When I move to explain that I don't take orders from him in game, I am cajoled instead.  Since he is attempting to coerce me, that relationship is no longer one of employer employee.  I can see your point clearly, but I disagree.

Saphra Deden wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

For all of TIMs power and influence, he could never accomplish what is accomplished on the ground.  Thus the power is in my hands, and not his, regardless of what he points to, pays for or plans.  There is no denying that TIM is important in ME2, but neither is there denying that Shepard is as well.

No, the power is not in your hands. You are far more replaceable than TIM is. You are just a man with a gun. Those are a dime a dozen. If you needed to be replaced you could be.

One questions why TIM thought Shepard was important in the first place. Hopefully ME3 will explain it for us.

If I am replaceable, then why has the Illusive Man spared no expense to revive me and cheat death itself?  I am more than a man with a gun, or Jacob would suffice.  You seem to see this yourself with your last comment.

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden: Do your bosses willfully deceive you?

- Yes, I am absolutely a narcissist - I love my self, my life, and everything I have made and become. My life couldn't be more wonderful - lease of all, because it's mine (for now - it's on loan).

I think I'm so far to the extreme of narcissism that I'm perfectly comfortable taking orders from people like my bosses - however, I'm not sure how long that would last if they were being willfully duplicitous.

===

Concerning enlightening you - no.

===

I don't think I'm entitled to equal consideration from everybody - I serve the Council willingly, because I believe in their goals. I listen to Anderson - believe he hasn't led me astray yet (even if he's fallible).

For whatever reason - all men were not created equal - some, I must help and look out for - others, I can stand side by side with as peers - while to others, I must seek assistance and knowledge (and those might overlap and be interchangable as time goes on) 

I do not share TIM's goals - I do not admire TIM's methods - I do not trust TIM. You're still asking me to find him a compelling figure worthy of the admiration you've put into him - I don't.

====

And you're taking my comment - "without question" - too absolutely.

If I've questioned TIM - clearly I'm capable of questioning.

Perhaps it would have been better stated - "I am willing to follow someone so long as our ideals match - even if I don't agree with a particular event that does not dispute those ideals." - that might be a better way of stating it.

And you have ideals too - you stated them plainly a few posts ago - so please refrain from going off on some tangent about how my beliefs shouldn't be more important than... etc. etc. blah blah.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:15 .

[AlexXIV]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

Well either he proved himself or he is just very clever. I don't need to armwrestle him, that's not what I meant. It is a question of honor actually.[/quote]

What, are you from the 12th century?

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

Not sayting TIM never backs anything up, his plans 'seem' to work.[/quote]

They don't "seem" to work, they do work.

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

We don't know what his plans are beyond what he tells us.[/quote]

Your point being? What does he need to tell you? He told you what his goals are so you should be able to hazard a guess from there. I imagine his plans are too complex and too many for him to share them with you even if he wanted to. He wants to stop the Reapers, he wants to elevate humanity.

For example I need not meet Barak Obama in person to believe he exists irl, But for example a guy like Osama Bin Laden I wouldn't know. Because he was not a public person.[/quote]

So you are saying you don't think TIM is a real person at all? What difference does it make? Either TIM or the people/person controlling TIM is a smart strategist, has recognized the threat to the galaxy, and taken more action than anyone else to combat it. Successfully at that.

At the end of the day you should try to work with TIM as long as possible because right now Cerberus is the only ally you have. Nobody else has thrown in with you or shown any real desire to, at least nobody useful. You can't afford to be picky and now isn't the time to start turning away allies.

If you want the galaxy to work together then you can start by working with Cerberus, even if your relationship isn't one made in heaven.

[/quote]
Yes I am from the 12th century and you should listen to someone with 900 years experience. Btw alot of virtues not only from the 12th century and even long before do still have value today.

I was forced to work with Cerberus, it wasn't my choice. Bioware did that for me. He is not my ally, ever. He uses me for his plans and I use him for mine. And at the end of the suicide mission this deal is over.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well either he proved himself or he is just very clever. I don't need to armwrestle him, that's not what I meant. It is a question of honor actually.

What, are you from the 12th century?

AlexXIV wrote...

Not sayting TIM never backs anything up, his plans 'seem' to work.

They don't "seem" to work, they do work.

AlexXIV wrote...

We don't know what his plans are beyond what he tells us.

Your point being? What does he need to tell you? He told you what his goals are so you should be able to hazard a guess from there. I imagine his plans are too complex and too many for him to share them with you even if he wanted to. He wants to stop the Reapers, he wants to elevate humanity.

For example I need not meet Barak Obama in person to believe he exists irl, But for example a guy like Osama Bin Laden I wouldn't know. Because he was not a public person.

So you are saying you don't think TIM is a real person at all? What difference does it make? Either TIM or the people/person controlling TIM is a smart strategist, has recognized the threat to the galaxy, and taken more action than anyone else to combat it. Successfully at that.

At the end of the day you should try to work with TIM as long as possible because right now Cerberus is the only ally you have. Nobody else has thrown in with you or shown any real desire to, at least nobody useful. You can't afford to be picky and now isn't the time to start turning away allies.

If you want the galaxy to work together then you can start by working with Cerberus, even if your relationship isn't one made in heaven.

Yes I am from the 12th century and you should listen to someone with 900 years experience. Btw alot of virtues not only from the 12th century and even long before do still have value today.

I was forced to work with Cerberus, it wasn't my choice. Bioware did that for me. He is not my ally, ever. He uses me for his plans and I use him for mine. And at the end of the suicide mission this deal is over.

Btw. I never promised TIM to save or capture the CB for Cerberus. The deal was to stop the Collectors and I honored my side of the bargain. Let's see how TIM honors his in ME3.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[Thompson family]

Why is this thread still alive?

[Medhia Nox]

@Thompson Family: I blame the Lazarus Project.

[AlexXIV]

It was never dead. And unless someone kills it, it will stay alive.

[Omega4RelayResident]

GodWood wrote...

You could have died, yes. Just like you could have died looking for Liara on Therum, fighting the thorian on Feros, stopping Saren on Virmire etc. Cerberus isn't the only one who sends Shepard on 'life threatening' missions. If your Shepard does have an issue with being sent on risky missions perhaps he shouldn't even be in the military.

Being sent on risky missions is not the problem. The Alliance and The Council were up front with most intel they could divulge. Some things they hid from me and I can understand that. However they never used me as bait on multiple occasions WITHOUT telling me the plan first. Yes TIM explained that the Collectors might have been listening in to transmissions. Errr.... I call bull**** on that one. The Quantum Entanglement based Communications Array is state of the art. www.youtube.com/watch (To spare you some time just jump to 6:00 minutes in) The communication is point to point which strongly suggests that this method of communication CAN NOT be intercepted or hacked. 100 worlds would need 100 pairs of these just to communicate with each other because of the unique state of the subatomic particles that are connected.

Its those little details that make me notice and see through his lies.

Fortunately they weren't

Are you implying he is infallable? He has been wrong before... just because he HAPPENED to be right this time doesnt mean I give him enough credit in his assumptions that I would go along with his plan.

"I knew you'd choke on the tough decisions".
But yes even he couldn't have predicted his top operative would do a complete 180. But he is forgiven. Even I didn't think Bioware's characterisation was that bad.

Forgiven?!?!?! That just implys that you are a fanatic and not a follower that concludes his assertions based on logical deduction. Mr. Spock is quite dissapointed in you. Oh and "tough decisions" you say?

TIM: Shepard I brought you back so you can stop the abductions of the human collonies.

Shep: Okay so whats the plan.

TIM: Well we will feed them some more colonies by using you as bait... more people will be abducted and probably die but we will kick their bug eyed arses when the right moment arises.

Shep: So you want to sacrifice MORE collonists?

TIM: Yup.

Shep:  /facepalm

Tough decions my fanny... TIM never cared about those collonists. All he cared about was killing the Collectors and using their technology for his own gains.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 08 décembre 2011 - 09:01 .

[HiroVoid]

If TIM knew of the base, he would have been up front at the beginning instead of hoping Shepard would have a change of heart at the end of the game.  Also, Shepard can't be replaced because he's perfect, and nobody's as awesome as he is.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[AlexXIV]

If you look at Shepard superficially you could indeed wonder what's so special about him. But what people who don't know him don't see is that he is a god. Even if mortal. Nobody can be in his place and do what he did. Since you played him for 2 games now you should know that. Whether it is destiny or luck doesn't matter, because what counts is history. And history will tell that nobody was like him/her.