1768 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How do you define an ally? You both have mutual goals so you cooperate to achieve those goals. Is that not what you did? Why does the alliance end after the suicide mission? Do you suddenly have different goals? What goals

An ally is someone I trust. You know the saying 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'? I disagree with it.

If you think someone with 900 years of experience is out of date then you look at it wrong. Also I use the internet, no? Granted, not for something mentionworthy, but that's something they didn't do back in the 12th century.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If you look at Shepard superficially you could indeed wonder what's so special about him. But what people who don't know him don't see is that he is a god. Even if mortal. Nobody can be in his place and do what he did. Since you played him for 2 games now you should know that. Whether it is destiny or luck doesn't matter, because what counts is history. And history will tell that nobody was like him/her.

I do not believe in gods and Shepard doesn't look very godly to me. He dies too easily.

'God' is a matter of definition. I said he is a mortal god. But he changes the world forever, this qualifies imo.

[Someone With Mass]

Shepard is more like a phoenix than a god, really.

[AlexXIV]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Shepard is more like a phoenix than a god, really.

Maybe, but he is someone with mass. That's for sure.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

An ally is someone I trust. You know the saying 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'? I disagree with it.

So you have your own definition then.

Well, that still doesn't answer my question. What changed at the end of the suicide mission?

The big I?

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

An ally is someone I trust. You know the saying 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'? I disagree with it.

So you have your own definition then.

Well, that still doesn't answer my question. What changed at the end of the suicide mission?

The big I?

What?

Indoctrination.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Indoctrination.

What does indoctrination have to do with it?

Why TIM would turn on Shepard, although possibly I lost track of what you were arguing about.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

An ally is someone I trust. You know the saying 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'? I disagree with it.

So you have your own definition then.

Well, that still doesn't answer my question. What changed at the end of the suicide mission?

To begin with I did never believe we had the same goals. I don't think TIM cares about the colonists. It is just the carrot for Shepard to get him/her to cooperate. And it worked well enough. What changed after the suicide mission was that it wore out. No more carrot, no more reason for Shep to be TIM's puppet. What changed was that I for the first time had a choice to disobey TIM. Before that there was no quitting.

You talk like I chose to work with TIM, which is why I said the part with Bioware forcing me. I don't know if you felt comfortable with Cerberus, but I never did. So basically blowing up the base was a big relief for me personally. It was breaking the chains. It was like getting my Shepard back, who was taken of me in the prologue.

I'd admit that all reasons for blowing up the base were not rational. On the other hand I didn't find enough rational reasons to keep it either. So I guess in this case it was ok to make an intuitive decission.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 décembre 2011 - 09:02 .

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why TIM would turn on Shepard, although possibly I lost track of what you were arguing about.

Yes I think you did. I was asking why the other poster felt his partnership with Cerberus was done after (or rather, during) the Suicide Mission. He used it as a reason for blowing up the Collector base.

If Cerberus was worth cooperating with to stop the Collectors I don't see why you wouldn't continue cooperating with them to stop the Reapers (a much bigger threat).

I'm willing to cooperate with them, but giving them that much power is going too far.

To be honest, I hate that decision and it's probably the hardest morality one I've made. I want the base's knowledge, I really do. And if I believed what TIM said before, about rogue cells and suchlike as being contrary to the core of what Cerberus is supposed to be, I think I'd give it to him.
However.... I just don't trust TIM enough to give him the keys to a Reaper factory.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why TIM would turn on Shepard, although possibly I lost track of what you were arguing about.

Yes I think you did. I was asking why the other poster felt his partnership with Cerberus was done after (or rather, during) the Suicide Mission. He used it as a reason for blowing up the Collector base.

If Cerberus was worth cooperating with to stop the Collectors I don't see why you wouldn't continue cooperating with them to stop the Reapers (a much bigger threat).

Because that was the deal. They worked together to stop the collectors. From that point they could either make a new deal, or not. If I give you ice cream and you give me chocolate we make a deal. This doesn't mean that the next time we meet we have to do it again. Most deals are limited. I'd say all of them but I am not so sure atm.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

To begin with I did never believe we had the same goals.

You didn't think Cerberus-... you know what? Nevermind.

I don't think Cerberus has ever been honest with me, I do think though that TIM wanted me to believe it.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...
Then I suppose again, we will have to agree to disagree.  He has offered those things to me with no condition of employment.  When I move to explain that I don't take orders from him in game, I am cajoled instead.  Since he is attempting to coerce me, that relationship is no longer one of employer employee.  I can see your point clearly, but I disagree.

Well he doesn't formally hire you but the writing is on the wall. Shepard can insist as much as he wants that "Cerberus is working for me!", but the truth is evident. TIM is indeed using you and coercing you in the sense that his strategizing is not something you can afford to cast aside. He does indeed use it to control you and I can understand why it would make someone uncomfortable, but if one makes the effort to understand TIM's motivation, methods, and goals, it isn't nearly as scary as it sounds.

(not that you should ever doubt his willingness to turn on you if he feels doing so serves his/Cerberus/humanity's interest)

Before we begin, I think we've found common ground on the second part of your argument, TIM's actions do not make sense for the reaons you and I have outlined if Shepard is indeed not important.

That said, It does not make me uncomfortable, or afraid.  It is against my very nature.  Employment, even in a mercenary military such as the ones in the Alliance, are a contract and agreement of a working relationship.  When you assume that someone throwing orders at you is your boss, you have deferred to his leadership, and given up your own sovreignity without such an agreement.  While it looks like employment, smells like employment and even acts like employment from TIMs POV, nothing was ever agreed upon other than to work together.  If I sought out Ceberus and looked for gainful employment (which I think should be an actual option for those who wish to approach the game that way, mind you) it would be a different story.

He does not own me because he brought me back to life, gave me a ship and resources to fight a fight I was already fighting when he decided our paths should officially cross.  He is unwisely giving me resources and expecting that mutual goals will be enough to maintain control without changing who I actually am.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 08 décembre 2011 - 11:21 .

[Medhia Nox]

I'd still like to know "how" the Collectors found the original Normandy.

Maybe TIM did that for Shepard's "own good" too?

[Someone With Mass]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd still like to know "how" the Collectors found the original Normandy.

Maybe TIM did that for Shepard's "own good" too?

No, he did that for the greater good.

[DiebytheSword]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd still like to know "how" the Collectors found the original Normandy.

Maybe TIM did that for Shepard's "own good" too?

Exactly, I'm not convinced that the Normandy is easily findable with Reaper tech, let alone Collector tech (which may or may not be on par with the Reapers).

Though I will say this, the Normandy had just exited sublight, a specific condition that Chief Engineer Adams had said would render the stealth drive useless because of blueshifting.  How the collectors managed to be in the right place at the right time to observe this is another matter entirely.

[HiroVoid]

I'd still like to know "how" the Collectors found the original Normandy.

Maybe TIM did that for Shepard's "own good" too?

You mean kill him to bring him back two years later by using a ton of Cerberus's resources?

Modifié par HiroVoid, 08 décembre 2011 - 11:19 .

[DiebytheSword]

HiroVoid wrote...

I'd still like to know "how" the Collectors found the original Normandy.

Maybe TIM did that for Shepard's "own good" too?

You mean kill him to bring him back two years later by using a ton of Cerberus's resources?

Keep in mind this all goes on the assumption that anything in the space jesus/lazarus plot makes any sense in the first place.

[HiroVoid]

DiebytheSword wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

I'd still like to know "how" the Collectors found the original Normandy.

Maybe TIM did that for Shepard's "own good" too?

You mean kill him to bring him back two years later by using a ton of Cerberus's resources?

Keep in mind this all goes on the assumption that anything in the space jesus/lazarus plot makes any sense in the first place.

Agreed.   The whole thing almost seemed like an excuse to have a reason to have a different looking Shepard, and to have Shepard join Cerberus as well as other elements.

[Someone With Mass]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Exactly, I'm not convinced that the Normandy is easily findable with Reaper tech, let alone Collector tech (which may or may not be on par with the Reapers).

Though I will say this, the Normandy had just exited sublight, a specific condition that Chief Engineer Adams had said would render the stealth drive useless because of blueshifting.  How the collectors managed to be in the right place at the right time to observe this is another matter entirely.

Then again, the Oculus can see through the Infiltrator's cloak without any problem.