1768 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Someone With Mass wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Exactly, I'm not convinced that the Normandy is easily findable with Reaper tech, let alone Collector tech (which may or may not be on par with the Reapers).

Though I will say this, the Normandy had just exited sublight, a specific condition that Chief Engineer Adams had said would render the stealth drive useless because of blueshifting.  How the collectors managed to be in the right place at the right time to observe this is another matter entirely.

Then again, the Oculus can see through the Infiltrator's cloak without any problem.

The Normandy was looking for Geth. So likely it was a trap, so they merely waited. I don't know why they expected the Normandy to go there though, nor do I know why they would send the Normandy on such a mission. I mean they have their fleet, no? Sometimes it feels like Shepard is doing everything. And then some silly Admiral comes to whine about how much the Normandy costs ... well it is the only ship actually doing something!

[DiebytheSword]

Someone With Mass wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Exactly, I'm not convinced that the Normandy is easily findable with Reaper tech, let alone Collector tech (which may or may not be on par with the Reapers).

Though I will say this, the Normandy had just exited sublight, a specific condition that Chief Engineer Adams had said would render the stealth drive useless because of blueshifting.  How the collectors managed to be in the right place at the right time to observe this is another matter entirely.

Then again, the Oculus can see through the Infiltrator's cloak without any problem.

Is the tactical cloak the same technology as the stealth system on the normandy?

From Mass Effect Wiki:

"The Normandy's IES (internal emission sink) stealth system is her most notable feature. For centuries, it was assumed that starship stealth was impossible. The heat generated by routine shipboard operations is easily detectable against the near absolute zero background temperature of space. The Normandy, however, is able to temporarily "store" this heat in lithium heat sinks deep within the hull.
The IES stealth system has a few limitations. The system doesn't work during FTL flight because this blue-shifts the Normandy's emissions beyond the sinks' ability to store, and even while out of FTL, any visual scan (i.e. looking out of a window) will reveal her. However, this is rare since most ships rely on scanners rather than visual contact and spotting another ship in space is difficult. The Normandy can go to 'silent running' for around 2-3 hours, or drift passively through a system for days before having to vent and give away her position. The stored heat must eventually be radiated, or it will build up to levels capable of cooking the crew alive. "

[Medhia Nox]

@HiroVoid - of course, there's also the little matter of the nano-tech/Reaper tech that's now inside Shepard... placed there, with all those Cerberus resources.

TIM didn't resurrect you with the intent of you telling him to F-Off (or because you're awesome)... surely he wanted not only a "symbol", but also a loyal lapdog. The fact that you can defy (or can defy) him surely doesn't sit with him well - given the resources. I'm sure he thought that his deep voice and incessant cigarette smoking would be appealing enough to keep you loyal.

We can easily assume the Lazaraus Project was designed to resurrect anyone (yeah, right). They just happened to find some tech - and just happened to realize the tech was used to raise the dead - and then just happened to develop it to such a level that it could completely rebuild the charred remains of a corpse - for vast resources.

We could also speculate that the Lazarus Project was offered up by the Collectors - using Reaper tech - and agreed to by TIM (who has his own designs) - so that Shepard could be repaired/resurrected after the attack.

I don't find it implausible - though it is speculation.

I also think there's a possibility someone on the Normandy (my vote is Joker) - gave the coordinates of the Normandy (my guess - for the leg technology) to either TIM or the Collectors.

Furthermore - who hired Wilson to try to kill off Shepard? Pissed off Collectors who got hoodwinked by TIM perhaps?

Anyway - these are questions I would have answered (and largely how I would have answered them) - if they get answers (or have them and I don't know about it) - I look forward to seeing what Bioware comes up with.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 décembre 2011 - 12:09 .

[HiroVoid]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@HiroVoid - of course, there's also the little matter of the nano-tech/Reaper tech that's now inside Shepard... placed there, with all those Cerberus resources.

TIM didn't resurrect you with the intent of you telling him to F-Off (or because you're awesome)... surely he wanted not only a "symbol", but also a loyal lapdog. The fact that you can defy (or can defy) him surely doesn't sit with him well - given the resources. I'm sure he thought that his deep voice and incessant cigarette smoking would be appealing enough to keep you loyal.

We can easily assume the Lazaraus Project was designed to resurrect anyone (yeah, right). They just happened to find some tech - and just happened to realize the tech was used to raise the dead - and then just happened to develop it to such a level that it could completely rebuild the charred remains of a corpse - for vast resources.

We could also speculate that the Lazarus Project was offered up by the Collectors - using Reaper tech - and agreed to by TIM (who has his own designs) - so that Shepard could be repaired/resurrected after the attack.

I don't find it implausible - though it is speculation.

If the tech has some type of effects in ME3, it hasn't happened yet.  Also, there are many things like 'Why didn't TIM put a control chip in Shepard' that just seem to have poor excuses.  Also, if they can bring back a fully functional brain with the same ideals, why don't they implant Cerberus ideals in there as well?  The whole thing's just a bit better and easier to take in if you don't look too closely at it.  I know they don't want to affect his performance or whatever, but I figured the risk to do so would be better than taking the chance you may have to kill him at some point.

I also think there's a possibility someone on the Normandy (my vote is Joker) - gave the coordinates of the Normandy (my guess - for the leg technology) to either TIM or the Collectors.

Furthermore - who hired Wilson to try to kill off Shepard? Pissed off Collectors who got hoodwinked by TIM perhaps?

Anyway - these are questions I would have answered (and largely how I would have answered them) - if they get answers (or have them and I don't know about it) - I look forward to seeing what Bioware comes up with.

Joker didn't give the coordinates.  He's too likeable of a character for Bioware to put in that position.  I also think it was said somewhere in LOSB that Wilson was paid by the Shadow Broker.

[Medhia Nox]

@HiroVoid - I fully admit it's all speculation, and totally agree that it's better if you don't pick it apart with a fine toothed comb.

I know the Shadow Broker has his own agenda - but, the question would be "why" and possibly "for who"?

======

As an aside - I think having Joker do it would have been the best option. You feed off the weakness of his condition - and promises from TIM - heck, even say that he thought he was feeding the coordinates to TIM, not the Collectors.

Betrayal isn't always about twirly mustache villains... in fact, it's usually the nice guy that betrays you (since you wouldn't expect it).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 décembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[HiroVoid]

Wouldn't the SB have been working for the Collectors like he did in Redemption to get Shepard's body?

As an aside - I think having Joker do it would have been the
best option. You feed off the weakness of his condition - and promises
from TIM - heck, even say that he thought he was feeding the coordinates
to TIM, not the Collectors.

Betrayal isn't always about twirly
mustache villains... in fact, it's usually the nice guy that betrays you
(since you wouldn't expect it).

It's just something I feel the ME writing team would do truthfully.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 09 décembre 2011 - 12:26 .

[Medhia Nox]

Didn't read Redemption - but it would still fit into my "TIM played the Collectors and hijacked Shepard's body for himself." concept.

===

As an aside - when Garrus talks to you about betrayal - I would have had him suspicious of whoever betrayed the original group... and, I would have him take down whoever did it - finally vindicating the man as something more than Shepard's groupy.

Anyway - most likely all just revisionist talk.

====

We now return you to your regularly scheduled pointless argument.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 décembre 2011 - 12:28 .

[DiebytheSword]

HiroVoid wrote...

Joker didn't give the coordinates.  He's too likeable of a character for Bioware to put in that position.  I also think it was said somewhere in LOSB that Wilson was paid by the Shadow Broker.

I agree here, the SB seems the most likely candidate, and one of the few outside the collectors or salarian STG capable of pulling such a stunt against a well hidden group.

[HiroVoid]

DiebytheSword wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Joker didn't give the coordinates.  He's too likeable of a character for Bioware to put in that position.  I also think it was said somewhere in LOSB that Wilson was paid by the Shadow Broker.

I agree here, the SB seems the most likely candidate, and one of the few outside the collectors or salarian STG capable of pulling such a stunt against a well hidden group.

Actually, with that, the SB definitely seems the one to have leaked the coordinates since there's videoes of inside the SR2 within the SB base.

[Medhia Nox]

But "if" the coordinates were leaked - and the Collectors didn't just find the Normandy by magic - the SB would still need to have someone on the Normandy to leak that info.

And why would the SB want Shepard dead... perhaps it got wind that Bioware was making LotSB and didn't want Liara to get his job.

[DPSSOC]

Many pages back, this thread moves when I'm sleeping/at work.

Yezdigerd wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Or they could just have one of the many career criminals the paragons set free come back and still be a criminal.  Not reformed (Helena Blake) and not beaten and broken (Fist) but just a criminal doing the exact same thing you stopped them doing last time.

The amusing thing is that renegades can turn Helena Blake into a social worker as well, they even need a lower persuasion check to do it, yet the stretch of it is always a paragon issue.

True.  I pointed out Helena because she's a good example of what I don't like seeing; not to suggest that's strictly a paragon thing.

Yezdigerd wrote...
And really if you chose to lynch Fist in front of witnesses, you obviously are playing the game for the lulz. It's really no wonder BW aren't bothered supplying a replacement character.

Also BW can't win, if the character you killed isn't there, renegade are punished with less content, and if they work out a replacement, renegade choices didn't matter.

I'm not talking about Renegade content.  I'm talking about how none of the criminals you let run free come back unchanged.  These are people who've been criminals for years, Fist was the crime boss for at least that section of the wards, and losing some hired goons isn't something he can bounce back from?  He's completely defeated, completely without resources, completely without any means of continuing to do what he'd done for years?  Now yes he's got to watch out for the Shadow Broker but you're telling me in two years (when we know the Shadow Broker had other things on his mind) Fist was never able to recover?

Blake's the same thing, she was one of 3 heads of a crime syndicate, she arranged the deaths of her partners to seize control, but one talk from Shepard and she's a social worker?  All I'm asking is that one, just one, criminal who's allowed to roam free remain a criminal.  That's it.  It could be Mouse for all I care but I'm guessing that in ME3 he'll have gotten a job as IT support in some big company and completely turned his life around.

Also what witnesses?  Your team?  His dead or dying guards? Am I missing something?  Were there actually civillians in the club when I started shooting?

[Someone With Mass]

DiebytheSword wrote...
Is the tactical cloak the same technology as the stealth system on the normandy?

From Mass Effect Wiki:

"The Normandy's IES (internal emission sink) stealth system is her most notable feature. For centuries, it was assumed that starship stealth was impossible. The heat generated by routine shipboard operations is easily detectable against the near absolute zero background temperature of space. The Normandy, however, is able to temporarily "store" this heat in lithium heat sinks deep within the hull.
The IES stealth system has a few limitations. The system doesn't work during FTL flight because this blue-shifts the Normandy's emissions beyond the sinks' ability to store, and even while out of FTL, any visual scan (i.e. looking out of a window) will reveal her. However, this is rare since most ships rely on scanners rather than visual contact and spotting another ship in space is difficult. The Normandy can go to 'silent running' for around 2-3 hours, or drift passively through a system for days before having to vent and give away her position. The stored heat must eventually be radiated, or it will build up to levels capable of cooking the crew alive. "

No, it looks like the tactical cloak is bending light like most other cloaking systems in other fictional universes.

Then again, as it says, a ship in FTL flight is pretty noticable, so maybe the Collectors noticed its exit and tagged it. Or maybe they can detect the use of mass effect fields, I don't know.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Why would the coordinates for the Normandy have to be leaked when they've already gone into the trap that is the area in which those ships went missing?

[ubermensch007]

Thompson family wrote...

Why is this thread still alive?

@Thompson family: Because I keep reviving it.

Cause and Effect can be a very interesting thing:

I must have revived this thread now about three or four times.What happens is, people seem to forget that it exist then a post is placed here.And hits the front page of the forum and everyone is like: Oh, yeah.I remember that thread.Its pretty interesting.Let me check it out.

On page 56 alone I ended up reviving this thread twice! It went silent for eight days, then I posted and others followed.Higher up on the page, it went inactive for four days and I posted, and once again other post followed.But the longest duration of time that it went inactive was 5 months and my post on page 45 16 Days Ago... jumpstarted it.

Mad eh?!

[DiebytheSword]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Why would the coordinates for the Normandy have to be leaked when they've already gone into the trap that is the area in which those ships went missing?

That is an excellent point.  However, the Collectors would still have to be very lucky to be in the right spot to see the FTL jump happen.

[capn233]

Why are we inventing conspiracy theories when it is much more likely the Collector Cruiser could detect Normandy even with the stealth system engaged?

That's basically what it looks like when the first cinematic plays out and the cruiser alters course to intercept Normandy.

[Thompson family]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Why is this thread still alive?

@Thompson family: Because I keep reviving it.

(snip)

Mad eh?!

Mad? Not at all. And I got a straight answer to a simple question. That's rare, particularly on this forum.

[Medhia Nox]

It's so fortunate outer space is so small.

[Yezdigerd]

DPSSOC wrote...
True.  I pointed out Helena because she's a good example of what I don't like seeing; not to suggest that's strictly a paragon thing.

Fair enough.

I'm not talking about Renegade content.  I'm talking about how none of the criminals you let run free come back unchanged.  These are people who've been criminals for years, Fist was the crime boss for at least that section of the wards, and losing some hired goons isn't something he can bounce back from?  He's completely defeated, completely without resources, completely without any means of continuing to do what he'd done for years?  Now yes he's got to watch out for the Shadow Broker but you're telling me in two years (when we know the Shadow Broker had other things on his mind) Fist was never able to recover?

I think the point is to show that the persuasion system works, that the skillpoints spent wasn't in vain. Helena Blake is a criminal on Omega if you didn't persuade her and of course if she had renegeded on your deal, BW would have had to script an encounter were you killed her.
The same with Fist, if it turns out that he is a succesful criminal boss on Omega, there is no reason why a paragon wouldn't go after him. Creating more content if you let him live. Also I never understood why the alternative to killing Fist is letting him go, the obvious thing would be to turn him over to C-sec.

Also what witnesses?  Your team?  His dead or dying guards? Am I missing something?  Were there actually civillians in the club when I started shooting?

Yes your team, you have just killed 15+ people, and lynched Fist, Garrus is a C-sec officer?  Why would Williams and Alenko lie for you to to cover up the murder in the investigation that surely would follow the Chora's Den Massacre? Wrex was arrested by C-sec for  threatening to kill Fist, and nothing happens when Fist ends up with a bullet in the head.
And is not like killing Fist achieves anything beyond it's cool to "be the law", lynching him put you at great risk of jeopardizing the spectre canditature and facing the citadel penalty for murder.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 09 décembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Andorfiend wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
You can preserve it for TIM, except that:
A) Cerberus has never done anything in their history that does not come back to bite them in the ass. Including Project Lazarus.

TIM can't be trusted. He spends the entire game betraying you, in stupid and counter-productive ways that show that he trusts you less than a rabid Krogan.

C) No Cerberus project has ever researched Reaper tech and not been indoctrinated. It happens over and over again. They have the worst lab safety record in the history of mad science.

A) Incorrect. I can make a long list here, but I won't bother. Do some researhc before making grand claims.

Incorrect. TIM is entirely predicable and can be trusted. He doesn't spend the entire game betraying you...the very way yowrod it show your bias...since 1 moment certanly doesn't qualify as the entire game and his action can hardly be classified as betrayl.

D) Again Incorrect. 3 out of 3. Bravo.

Really? That's the best troll you could come up with? Pitiful.

I'll go easy on you, please cite a single example from your claimed 'long list' and we'll go on from there with actual data rather than airy assurances that what I saw on my screen was not what actually happened.

And that is the best response you can come up with? Calling the other guy troll? Weaksause.


Anywhoo, Saphra made a long list a while ago.
Anywho, most of Cerberus research was a success - since success is measured by reaching the goal, which most of their research did. Oh, there were causialities apletny, but they don't negate the goal.

And lets not forget all the lobbying, black-ops actions (like preventing the terrorist atttack on the Citaed, replacing the head of Terra Firma with a less extreeme one, assasinating a warmongering Pope, etc..) - that are pretty much all sucesses.
And there's f'course, EDI, Normandy 2, Lazarus, stopping the Collectors.

As for TIM, for the last 20 years of his life he has been consistant in his actions. There is no reason to think that will suddenly change.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...
In fact Lotion - you've proven my point completely. The Imperium of Man is EXACTLY why a man must hold himself up to a higher standard - weakness of character only feeds the Chaos Gods.

Except the Imperium, and humanity itself - would not survive if they followed you "higher standards".
Survival of billion/trillions of humans IS the highest standard,

Organic life suffers in the real world - humanity is the greatest perpetrator of crimes against "organic life" - and what would you care if you destroyed a hill of ants?

There is no argument that can ever be made - especially in a world where you don't consider the possibility of spirit - where you can prove the relevance of mankind.

The world is over 4.5 billion years old - and humanity has been around for 50,000 years old (200,000 for pure genetics - but the number's are hardly relevant with these sizes) - the universe 13.5 billion years.

The human race doesn't even register as the blink of a human eye - or a single breath - or any number of other things never noticed during a human lifetime.

So all this "I've gotta do all these Renegade things to do the noble thing of saving humanity." comes off just as self-righteous as anything a Paragon would do.

Eh? Where did I imply humanity is somehow more specia lor worty than other races/living beings?

Unless you are claming fighting for the survival of your entire species is just egoistical and stupid, and we should all die cause we're all just dirty apes?
You are "worthy" of survival if you survive. It's as simple as that.

I believe a compelling argument could be made about the Reapers saving the diverse viability of life forms by culling sapient species - and the inherent suicidal nature of organic sapience (and the Reapers purpose of destroying it) would be exactly what I would have made ME about in the end (while leaving the current Cycle to survive - and have to deal with the fact that the bad guys actually won)

Funyn that they only "reaperize" some species, while they compeltely irradicate the rest. Doesn't sound like "Great Perservers" to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Saphra Deden - may I ask, what "greater things"? How can you scientifically evaluate a "greater thing"? What is your basis for comparison?

And to answer why I don't just "lay down and die" - it's simple - because information is never destroyed in the Universe. What I have done (no matter how infinitesimally small) - is permanently marked upon the fabric of reality - this is science fact (see: Black Holes).

When that information is re-used - and I believe it will be, potentially for the next universe - I want it to be information based on certain qualities I do not believe those who champion the Renegade path possess (or possess in large amounts).

Call it a gambit for a better next universe without base impulses which I find to be weak and pathetic - fear of death being one, and potentially the largest, of them.

What? No, no it's not. Where the hell you get that crap from?

Information is lost all the time.
And you didn't really answer her question there. You say fear of death should be done away with and information is never destroyed, yet you avoid death? If your death doesn't matter, why avoid it?

And the base impulses which are there to ensure survival? You consider them a hinderance to a "better universe" - which you cannot evaluate anymore than "greater things" you accuse Saphra of.
Teh hypocrisy...it burns...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
HEY BOROMIR PUT THE RING OF POWER DOWN AND WALK AWAY!

Why should I do that Gollum?

A) You can go through the SB records on Cerberus activities and a few of the plans they had fell appart and they had to correct them somehow. In addition all of those projects Cerberus ran in ME1 that you stopped as Shep... remember those? I count them as a failure. Oh wait why did the Project Lazarus research station ho berserk with tampered Mechs..... erhhemm... remember Miranda shot him and he was Second in command of Project Lazarus. DONT TRY TO BELITTLE PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG. He did his research and so did I.

Hahahahaha!

Lazarus was a sucess - since the goal of hte project - brining Shhep backto life - suceeded. You got a very strange definition of proejct sucess here.
Was the goal met  -yes/no? It's as simple as that.

As for projects you stopped for Cerberus - you were working for Cerberus, so those count. Also, if you don't do those mission Cerberus clean up themselves. And even in "faliure" tehy make breaktroughs - casein point, project Overlord. Cerberus went further in Geth research than even the quarians.

So tell you what - I'll stop belittleing you when you stop being so utterly wrong.

The fact that TIM is comming after you in ME3 full force with all of Cerberus, despite whether you gave him the CB or not, means you are litterally crazy for thinking TIM can be trusted.

TIM: "I'm going to kill you Shepard just because I feel like it."

Shep: "It's okay... I trust you."

TIM:        /facepalm

What part of TIM and Cerberus are trying to kill you in ME3 dont you understand?

What part of backwards reasoning do you fail to understand? You make the decision in ME2. Up untill that point, TIMS behavior is consistent. He and Cerberus consistently work agaisnt the reapers, without exception.
You cannot use knowledge of future events - that you dont' know at that time - to justify a decision made in the past.
And well..bad writing galore.
I can give you plenty of real-life examples of perfecly logical decisions that in the end backfired. That doesn make them any less logical or rational. Hindsight is 20/20.

C) The tech smuggled away from the Citadel (the remains of Sovereign that the EDI anti-Reaper algorythms are based on and the research done on Paul Grayson) DO NOT COUNT. There was not enough of Nazara left to actually indoctrinate the researchers. The indoctrination protocols and methods were programmed in the salvaged tech but were not OPERATIONAL. For gods sake I almost took that verbatum from the book. Thats how they studied Indoctrination so fully without falling suceptible.

It counts. It's reaper tech.

However do you remember the Derelict Reaper in ME2? Feeling foolish yet? Soooo many husks! There is no evidence that the CB did not have some form of Reaper tech capable of indoctrination. There is more evidence that it had the tech because... well it was a Reaper factory. Reapers indoctrinate. Ill let you make the connection there.

Theres no evidence it has indoctrination equipment. And even if it has, it's a risk worth taking.
You're gonna be facing indoctrination sooner or later. Better approach it now and try to study it while you still have time and under controlled circumstances.

I'd ask you to conenct the dots, but it seems a futile gesture.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
In your opinion.... which I can respect.... but the majority of the forums seems to have settled on the fact that TIM needs to be blown out of an airlock.

Which is a popularity argument that has absolutely ZERO practical worth.