1768 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

Aquilas wrote...

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~ George Santayana

Hi,

Santayana was wrong.  Not just "kinda wrong", but fundamentally, life-alteringly, mind-numbingly wrong.

Thanks,
daqs

[Han Shot First]

Though I am a big Paragon fan, I kind of thought Paragon vs Renegade should have been more of a Morally Good vs Smart decision process, rather than the DO NO WRONG vs I'M COMMANDER SHEPARD AND I'M THE BIGGEST JERK ON THE CITADEL that it seems to be in ME1 and ME2. There are some exceptions, I'm sure, but even in tone of voice Renegade Shepard turns out to be more of a jerkface rather than a person just trying to get the job done.

I think both full on Paragon and full on Renegades should get less-than-ideal endings.

A full on Paragon is too much of a nice guy for his own good, and a full on Renegade is a dick to potential allies. The correct path should be somewhere between the two extremes. (Paragade and Renegon)

[Jebel Krong]

daqs wrote...

Aquilas wrote...

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~ George Santayana

Hi,

Santayana was wrong.  Not just "kinda wrong", but fundamentally, life-alteringly, mind-numbingly wrong.

Thanks,
daqs

er, no he isn't: try iraq, afghanistan or israel as 3 easy examples of where that applies.

paragons are wussies, unable to make the hard choices, when they matter, which is why good people only win in fiction.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:44 .

[TomY90]

I guarantee you that it is possible whether paragon or renegade you can succeed and other ways of failing as well.

I expect 6 different endings 3 for paragon, 3 for renegade.

[Bailyn242]

 Could we please keep this kind of whining in the 30,000 other paragon = winbutton threads please, pretty please?

Good fricking grief. Same topic, new fricking thread title.

PS) I didn't even bother reading a single post in this thread since I'm certain I've already read the argument... 100 kazillion times since E3 alone.

[mauro2222]

Jebel Krong wrote...

daqs wrote...

Aquilas wrote...

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~ George Santayana

Hi,

Santayana was wrong.  Not just "kinda wrong", but fundamentally, life-alteringly, mind-numbingly wrong.

Thanks,
daqs

er, no he isn't: try iraq, afghanistan or israel as 3 easy examples of where that applies.

paragons are wussies, unable to make the hard choices, when they matter, which is why good people only win in fiction.

Is the exact opposite, paragon accept the consequences and deals with the resposabilitie, while renegade gives a **** on every problem and solves it with bullets. I don´t see how those examples apply to your opinion, are you saying that you approve that? Again you didn´t understand the importance of learning history.

Modifié par mauro2222, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:02 .

[DCarter]

To be honest I feel the paragon/renegade is fatally floored. I'd much rather get rid of it all together and just have clear dialogue choices.

[Jebel Krong]

mauro2222 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

daqs wrote...

Aquilas wrote...

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~ George Santayana

Hi,

Santayana was wrong.  Not just "kinda wrong", but fundamentally, life-alteringly, mind-numbingly wrong.

Thanks,
daqs

er, no he isn't: try iraq, afghanistan or israel as 3 easy examples of where that applies.

paragons are wussies, unable to make the hard choices, when they matter, which is why good people only win in fiction.

Is the exact opposite, paragon accept the consequences and deals with the resposabilitie, while renegade gives a **** on every problem and solves it with bullets. I don´t see how those examples apply to your opinion, are you saying that you approve that?

not sure what yu are saying, but if you look at any of the recent or far history of any of those countries, you can see a pretty constant a repeat of current events being played out in a cyclical fashion precisely because people don't remember.

[Alamar2078]

Bailyn242 wrote...

 Could we please keep this kind of whining in the 30,000 other paragon = winbutton threads please, pretty please?

Good fricking grief. Same topic, new fricking thread title.

PS) I didn't even bother reading a single post in this thread since I'm certain I've already read the argument... 100 kazillion times since E3 alone.

Pretty much this ... although you'll never see this post

[Dave of Canada]

Bailyn242 wrote...

 Could we please keep this kind of whining in the 30,000 other paragon = winbutton threads please, pretty please?

Good fricking grief. Same topic, new fricking thread title.

PS) I didn't even bother reading a single post in this thread since I'm certain I've already read the argument... 100 kazillion times since E3 alone.

Simple. Ignore the thread instead of going in the thread complaining about it's existence.

[Dave of Canada]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Renegade may not win many friends, but it will win a war.

Paragons will win it too, just without any sacrifices and a lot more people liking them. Including a few cameos where people mention your decisions instead of acting like you've never done that decision.

[Saberchic]

Dave of Canada wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Renegade may not win many friends, but it will win a war.

Paragons will win it too, just without any sacrifices and a lot more people liking them. Including a few cameos where people mention your decisions instead of acting like you've never done that decision.

I agree with both renegades and paragons winning, but not about paragons not sacrficing.

I think that's going to bite a couple of my paragon Sheps big time. By not being able to make those hard choices, I think there will be some majorly bad consequences for paragons.

[mauro2222]

Jebel Krong wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

daqs wrote...

Aquilas wrote...

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~ George Santayana

Hi,

Santayana was wrong.  Not just "kinda wrong", but fundamentally, life-alteringly, mind-numbingly wrong.

Thanks,
daqs

er, no he isn't: try iraq, afghanistan or israel as 3 easy examples of where that applies.

paragons are wussies, unable to make the hard choices, when they matter, which is why good people only win in fiction.

Is the exact opposite, paragon accept the consequences and deals with the resposabilitie, while renegade gives a **** on every problem and solves it with bullets. I don´t see how those examples apply to your opinion, are you saying that you approve that?

not sure what yu are saying, but if you look at any of the recent or far history of any of those countries, you can see a pretty constant a repeat of current events being played out in a cyclical fashion precisely because people don't remember.

People remember, childs don´t, is a matter of education, if all humanity know about history, war will not exist, money will not exist, poverty will not exist. If people doesn´t know about the world, they believe anything that you say to them because of fear, and people fear to the unknown, if you told them that anyone that don´t believe in Ala is a sinner and deserves to be killed they would probably say no at the beggining, because no matter what, they still are people, but as long you keep them ignorant they accept this untrue story and they see it as the holy true. In other countries is the same, you keep your people with zero knowledge of the world and they have fear, they start to believe anything that someone in power or with a degree tells to them. Thats why muslim = terrorist, goverment = they care about us they don´t lie, money = civilized people, degree = wisdom, any of those examples are true.
Those countries live like that because in that way they serve better to others interests, divided and ignorant they hate each other so it´s easier to manipulate them.

[azerSheppard]

OH LOOK ....

[Varus Praetor]

As long as Renegades CAN win, I'll be satisfied. I don't care if Paragons get by with questionable decisions because I don't play Paragon. As long as I can get through my game without feeling like a complete spineless douche (the way Paragon often feels), I'm fine with it. Having said that, I think a perfect place for "punishing" Paragons is in the epilogue. For example, even if the Rachni join the other species against the Reapers....what do you think is going to happen after the battle is won? If the genophage is cured, perhaps the Krogan will join in the fight as well, but then it's back to square one once the battle is over. I actually think that curing the genophage is the "Paragon" decision that is most likely to backfire in a major way and I'd like to see it as such.

[Ashathor]

What is it with renegades being so vicious towards paragons? Why the heck would you want to ruin the paragon experience just so you are not the only one with a crappy ending? Should you guys be asking for a better representation/ending for renegades? Making one thing worse than another does not make it better. I have no problem with them doing a renegade ending that is actually good and not some crappy ending where everyone dies (even though in games like KOTOR you kill all your companions practicly which SUCKED!)

. Also for the record Paragade is the way to go! Doing good deeds while doing the dirty work that needs to be done, that's the way it's meant to be played.

[JamieCOTC]

Saberchic wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Renegade may not win many friends, but it will win a war.

Paragons will win it too, just without any sacrifices and a lot more people liking them. Including a few cameos where people mention your decisions instead of acting like you've never done that decision.

I agree with both renegades and paragons winning, but not about paragons not sacrficing.

I think that's going to bite a couple of my paragon Sheps big time. By not being able to make those hard choices, I think there will be some majorly bad consequences for paragons.

Mac Walters talking about Virmire and ME3. 

So, yeah, both will make sacrifices.  I suspect saving the Rachni will bite Paragons in the butt as handing over the Collector Base to TIM will nail Renegades to the wall, but ultimately there will be ways around those decisions.  I still don't see how renegades are "punished."  I honestly don't see it.  I played a renegade femshep and had a blast. For me, it was just another way to experience the game.

My Renegade let the Council die, saved the Rachni, destroyed the genophage cure and gave TIM the base.  Is she going to have a hard time in ME3?  Probably, but that will make it all the more challanging and more importantly a very different playthrough from my Paragon. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:28 .

[Skirata129]

mauro2222 wrote...

People remember, childs don´t, is a matter of education, if all humanity know about history, war will not exist, money will not exist, poverty will not exist.

Not true at all. all of those would still exist, war would just have better justiication and be waged more intelligently. and how are money and poverty the result of people not studying history? that makes no sense at all. they are the result of simple economics.

[Raiil]

Ashathor wrote...

What is it with renegades being so vicious towards paragons? Why the heck would you want to ruin the paragon experience just so you are not the only one with a crappy ending? Should you guys be asking for a better representation/ending for renegades? Making one thing worse than another does not make it better. I have no problem with them doing a renegade ending that is actually good and not some crappy ending where everyone dies (even though in games like KOTOR you kill all your companions practicly which SUCKED!)

. Also for the record Paragade is the way to go! Doing good deeds while doing the dirty work that needs to be done, that's the way it's meant to be played.

I only have two Shepards, a paragon and a renegon who tends to make the big paragon decisions most of the time, but can be kind of a jerk to people she doesn't like (re: everyone who doesn't live on the Normandy and doesn't apply for real underdog status. And the asari councilor). 

I have absolutely no problem with the paragon/renegade aspect in theory. I do have an issue with paragons generally skirting by with little consequence to their decisions in most of the game. You have a very small handful of people who seem to understand/appreciate the renegade 'get 'er done' thought process, most of which are squaddies (Garrus, a lot of the time Thane, etc).

I made a note earlier where I mentioned that I don't necessarily mean that there has to always be a huge payoff. I thought, in the example I used, that an email from a survivor of Dr Heart's insane cloning program or a family member of a victim could send an email thanking my Shepard for wiping that son of a b--ch off the face of the universe. Another example: I would have liked to see two potential emails from Toombs if you do his mission in ME1. If you convinced him to let the doctor go, or allowed him to shoot him, you get the angry email that appears in ME2. But if you shoot the doctor yourself (the renegade response), under the pretext of being a Spectre and therefore immune to the consequences, you could get a different email, where Toombs ponders the possibility of you getting into Cerberus in order to take them out from the inside.

I don't want paragons to have The Ultimate Bad Ending. I don't want paragons to live in eternal suffering for their decisions. What I want is for my herp derp, let's hold hands and sing We Are The World paragon* Shepard to get shot in the face (metaphorically) from time to time by some of her past decisions because she's naive as all hell and doesn't understand the concept of thinking ahead. I'd like my renegon 'I'm Commander Shepard and I do whatever the f--k I want' Shep to have to face the music because she made a snap decision and it failed. I want renegades to face that too.


Sometimes doing the nice thing can, and should, have negative repercussions. I'd like some cameos that are from people who react positively to making the renegade choice. Hell, bring back paragon/renegade only missions, and throw some in for us paragade/renegons, because being the wild card should have some consequences as well. 


*note that she's not derpy because she's a paragon, she's derpy because of her thought process; it's not a slam against paragons in general.

[robarcool]

What all the fuss is about? Renegade players can always have new paragon playthroughs and they can experience what paragons can. Yeah, I get it that it the paragon character you want to face some music, but common, it is a game guys.

[Raiil]

robarcool wrote...

What all the fuss is about? Renegade players can always have new paragon playthroughs and they can experience what paragons can. Yeah, I get it that it the paragon character you want to face some music, but common, it is a game guys.

I think you're missing the point. 

Part of the interest in the MEffect games is the idea that choices matter, and it was inferred that there is no right or wrong. However, in terms of game play, NPC response, and little extras like cameos, paragons come out on top. Renegades, renegons and paragades would like a few of those bones tossed our way, thanks.

It also kills replayability. My original character paragoned her way through ME1 and ME2. Then I did a NG+ and renegoned, and basically the big difference was that some people thought I was an a--hole, and I lost some options without gaining any. I'm now going through ME1 again as a paragade, which will slide into renegon in ME2, and I'm not looking at anything new, only a loss of said game play, NPC response, and little extras like cameos. I'm not asking better. I'm asking for something different. This game should have more variety in terms of repercussions, consequences, and rewards.

[Dave of Canada]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I still don't see how renegades are "punished."  I honestly don't see it.

No cameos, lack of ingame information, lack of mention of decisions, decisions made irrelevant when considering the paragon alternative (metagame), you need more resources to patch up your character, paragon charm options to claim loyalty but no intimidate options to claim loyalty, inconsistency in dialogue (including the post-Collector Base dialogue), almost identical to default Shepard (what's the purpose of importing a Renegade?) and many more.

I've written in great detail about this many times, though I'm unable to do so right now. I've got this entry here that covers a few of it  more in detail.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 juillet 2011 - 02:37 .

[Saberchic]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Renegade may not win many friends, but it will win a war.

Paragons will win it too, just without any sacrifices and a lot more people liking them. Including a few cameos where people mention your decisions instead of acting like you've never done that decision.

I agree with both renegades and paragons winning, but not about paragons not sacrficing.

I think that's going to bite a couple of my paragon Sheps big time. By not being able to make those hard choices, I think there will be some majorly bad consequences for paragons.

Mac Walters talking about Virmire and ME3. 

So, yeah, both will make sacrifices.  I suspect saving the Rachni will bite Paragons in the butt as handing over the Collector Base to TIM will nail Renegades to the wall, but ultimately there will be ways around those decisions.  I still don't see how renegades are "punished."  I honestly don't see it.  I played a renegade femshep and had a blast. For me, it was just another way to experience the game.

My Renegade let the Council die, saved the Rachni, destroyed the genophage cure and gave TIM the base.  Is she going to have a hard time in ME3?  Probably, but that will make it all the more challanging and more importantly a very different playthrough from my Paragon. 

Your bolded part is exactly how I feel. I love both my paragon and renegade Sheps (ok, maybe the renegade a little more.. ). I think both sides are going to get screwed on some decisions, and I'm fine with that. I mean, how boring would that be if everything just went "hunky dory" because you pick the blue option.

Oh, your link took me to a tweet about Wrex???