32 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

This is making a mountain out of a molehill, but then what are message boards for if not for molehill glorification? Dream big, little molehill, dream big!

One of the very view Qunari educational moments in Dragon Age: Origins was when Sten would confont a female warden (any race) about her breaking gender conformity. He can't understand how she can be a woman AND a fighter, since women are craftsman and farmers, not warriors. That the Warden could be a woman AND a fighter wasn't something Sten could get his head around.

The Arishok never even mentions F!Hawke's gender. In fact, not one of the qunari find F!Hawke's gender remarkable, despite what I always thought were the Qun's strict rules on male vs. female roles.

Did I misunderstand Sten or are these just really .... progressive Qunari?

[Eudaemonium]

The Arishok brings up Hawke's gender if you ask to duel him as a woman (maybe only if you don't have Isabela return, this was on my first [and only] playthrough). He basically says he can't duel you, since you are a woman, and then Fenris has to step in and convince him that he doesn't actually see you as a woman (rather as a basalit'an), similar to the way Sten basically learns to ignore your gender in DAO.

[Foolsfolly]

@ Eudaemonium:

I don't remember that. Of course I only played female once.

I don't remember much of a difference at all between the two genders. Which, yay equality. But I did kind of miss the disparaging remarks.

It's entirely why I did a female elven mage Warden. If there's one Warden choice that's all but certain to be hated on the most it's that one.

[whykikyouwhy]

Eudaemonium wrote...

The Arishok brings up Hawke's gender if you ask to duel him as a woman (maybe only if you don't have Isabela return, this was on my first [and only] playthrough). He basically says he can't duel you, since you are a woman, and then Fenris has to step in and convince him that he doesn't actually see you as a woman (rather as a basalit'an), similar to the way Sten basically learns to ignore your gender in DAO.

This doesn't seem to happen if Isabela returns and F!Hawke is willing to duel the Arishok. Isabela will demand that he duel her, but he will essentially declare Isabela unworthy and focus his attention on Hawke.

[Eudaemonium]

Hmmm. I guess maybe you need to 1) Not have Isabela return, 2) have Fenris on your party, and 3) have it so Fenris tries to arrange the duel (and of course, be F!Hawke). Those are pretty stringent requirements.

@Queen-of-Stuff: Yeah, the mage thing is really odd. The onyl Qunari I know who brings it up is the Arshaad at the end of Shepherding Wolves, and even then only if you decide to tell him.

[Huntress]

Arishok duel you without fenris help if he respect you, I know myhawke don't need fenris and she duel him every game, sad really... he is a very good ( evil) character,, I like him very much, more than Loghain! but of course I don't like traitors so loghain dies every game.
I don't want to be forced to give up a friend to allow him to leave, he could leave with the book for all I care. He gets the book + the 2 assasins elves, Myhawke keep Isabela and save kirkwall.. is so simple...

[FieryDove]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

This doesn't seem to happen if Isabela returns and F!Hawke is willing to duel the Arishok. Isabela will demand that he duel her, but he will essentially declare Isabela unworthy and focus his attention on Hawke.

That is why I never saw that. Interesting!

I had always wondered what was really going through the Arishok's head when my Fhawke and Aveline are there badgering him.

"No wonder Kirkwall is full of Insanity, females run the place!"

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...
I don't remember much of a difference at all between the two genders. Which, yay equality. But I did kind of miss the disparaging remarks.

I've noticed a difference in the Romance!Dialogs too. Anders will tell M!Hawke stories about his past and seem to connect with him on a deeper emotional level. For F!Hawke, he calls her "beautiful" and keeps obsessing over her safety. There's no option to call him a sexist prat, saddly. So we can add sexism to Anders's list of faults.

It just seems curious to me that the Arishok would choose the 11th hour Duel to finally notice F!Hawke's gender, as opposed to that being the moment he decides he doesn't care. Sten, after all, needed some time to get used to the idea.

And I agree that Mage!Hawke should be more of a big deal too. We've seen what role the Qunari have for their mages, and it sure doesn't look comfortable. Mage!Hawke could stand as example of what a free mage is capable of.

[Lisa_H]

Eudaemonium wrote...

The Arishok brings up Hawke's gender if you ask to duel him as a woman (maybe only if you don't have Isabela return, this was on my first [and only] playthrough). He basically says he can't duel you, since you are a woman, and then Fenris has to step in and convince him that he doesn't actually see you as a woman (rather as a basalit'an), similar to the way Sten basically learns to ignore your gender in DAO.

Yes, this happened to my femHawke my first two playthroughs, for my third time I managed to get both Isabela back and the Aeishok's respect, so no mention of gender was made

[TEWR]

DreamerM wrote...

This is making a mountain out of a molehill, but then what are message boards for if not for molehill glorification? Dream big, little molehill, dream big!

One of the very view Qunari educational moments in Dragon Age: Origins was when Sten would confont a female warden (any race) about her breaking gender conformity. He can't understand how she can be a woman AND a fighter, since women are craftsman and farmers, not warriors. That the Warden could be a woman AND a fighter wasn't something Sten could get his head around.

The Arishok never even mentions F!Hawke's gender. In fact, not one of the qunari find F!Hawke's gender remarkable, despite what I always thought were the Qun's strict rules on male vs. female roles.

Did I misunderstand Sten or are these just really .... progressive Qunari?

It's sort of a plot hole is what it is (which I predict shall be conveniently called a story in the making by the devs. It's not a plot-hole, there's a valid explanation *). I played a female Mage Hawke hoping that the Arishok would make some comments after I took down the Tal-Vashoth, but he said nothing.

So I waited until Act 2. Maybe he thought female Hawke was just a really beautiful man at first.


And he still didn't do anything. So I just got really ticked off at that and swore never to play a female Hawke again. I expected the gender to make a difference, especially with the Qunari. But nothing. So to avoid the painful memories (thank you for reminding me ) I stay away from Female Hawkes.


Also I can't stand Female Hawke's voiced lines. No emotion whatsoever.


Anyway, despite the Arishok eventually saying you're a woman, that only happens if Isabela doesn't return. But why doesn't he take issue with your gender earlier? Why is it Isabela specific when he makes the comment. It's not enough.


*I kid Bioware, I kid. But it is a pretty big sort-of plot hole.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:19 .

[Beerfish]

Easy to explain, the Arishok was a buffoon who's views on life and the Qun changed as the winds changed. He was in a city full of women and others doing what they were not supposed to be doing for years and doing very well at it. It probably finally got through is thick horned head that some glorious mystical zen like code that shoehorns beings into strict tasks was stupid.

[Patriciachr34]

I think by the end of Act 2, the Arishok is just tired of all of it. The Arishok is simply looking for an excuse to destroy what he believes is chaos (Hawke being a part of that chaos). In my mind, if Isabella comes back, then fem Hawke is deserving of the respect of a warrior. So the Arishock duels for Isabella (someone he does not respect). If Isabella does not return, the Arishock needs the push to get past the whole "OMG boobies!" thing until he is reminded by Fenris about his own declaration. Frankly, I think it is just an excuse to not have to duel a woman, which he believes would be beneath him. The fact that the Arishok is even open to a duel (whether male or female) shows just how much respect he has for our Hawke. He'd just attack and kill anyone else.

Edit: Except for maybe our warden.

Modifié par Patriciachr34, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:02 .

[Sajuro]

@Redux: I don't think its a plothole that he never verbalizes the fact that you are a woman to your face since in the years he is in Kirkwall you only interact with him for a few hours max. I don't think it would be out of his character to assume that he lumped that in with why the city sucked when talking to other Qunari or just internalized it because the first time he saw Hawke, she had managed to clear the cave of Tal-vashoth with three other people.
The reason he brought it up in the duel because he could think that it would be beneath him to fight a woman one on one since women are not meant to be warriors.

[DreamerM]

Sajuro wrote...

 I don't think its a plothole that he never verbalizes the fact that you are a woman to your face since in the years he is in Kirkwall you only interact with him for a few hours max.

A theory that does not gel with the Vicount's insistence that Hawke has had more interaction with the Qunari then anyone else in Kirkwall. Which makes no sense, since the Qunari need food and water and basic supplies, right? This means, by neccessity, they must buy what they need from the humans around them. And yet one glimpse of Hawke meant s/he had more interactions with them then anyone else? Huh?

For the record, another thing that never made sense was how Hawke made such an impression. The Qunari seem to have very, very low opinions of mercenaries. The Arishok is introduced to Hawke as the hired muscle of that annoying Dwarf merchant Forget-his-name. A capable mercenary, true, but still someone who killed to get a promised share in the profits from the sale of the gun blackpower. I don't understand why that turned Hawke into the one human who's name the Arishok ever bothered to learn.

The only way I could justify it to myself was that, well, Hawke must have had off-screen dealings with the Qunari somehow, and somehow displayed honor to the Arishok through those.

And I still say that Hawke was a mage, or a female, or better yet a female mage should have been a much, much bigger deal then it was.

[whykikyouwhy]

DreamerM wrote...

A theory that does not gel with the Vicount's insistence that Hawke has had more interaction with the Qunari then anyone else in Kirkwall. Which makes no sense, since the Qunari need food and water and basic supplies, right? This means, by neccessity, they must buy what they need from the humans around them. And yet one glimpse of Hawke meant s/he had more interactions with them then anyone else? Huh?

For the record, another thing that never made sense was how Hawke made such an impression. The Qunari seem to have very, very low opinions of mercenaries. The Arishok is introduced to Hawke as the hired muscle of that annoying Dwarf merchant Forget-his-name. A capable mercenary, true, but still someone who killed to get a promised share in the profits from the sale of the gun blackpower. I don't understand why that turned Hawke into the one human who's name the Arishok ever bothered to learn.

The only way I could justify it to myself was that, well, Hawke must have had off-screen dealings with the Qunari somehow, and somehow displayed honor to the Arishok through those.

And I still say that Hawke was a mage, or a female, or better yet a female mage should have been a much, much bigger deal then it was.

Is it possible that the Arishok was impressed by Hawke simply because Hawke was willing to face him, and to do so without any dishonesty? Even if Hawke is hoping to make some coin, he/she is up front about it - there's no duplicity, no hidden motive. Just a "hey, I have a job. When I'm done, pay me as agreed." While this isn't exactly altruistic or heroic necessarily, it's frank and open.

By Act 2, the Arishok knows that Hawke worked his/her way up from Lowtown to live in the estate. There is drive there, purpose - things that the Qunari admire, if even only as dictated by the Qun. Hawke continues to have dealings with the Arishok and does not shirk from his request(s). There is no prejudice in his/her dialogue (which may be incorrect...I haven't played with an aggressive stance, so perhaps those clips are different).

In a city that seems teeming with mindlessness and lawlessness, Hawke is going to stand out enough to at least warrant a second thought, I would gather.

[LightningSamus]

Eudaemonium wrote...

The Arishok brings up Hawke's gender if you ask to duel him as a woman (maybe only if you don't have Isabela return, this was on my first [and only] playthrough). He basically says he can't duel you, since you are a woman, and then Fenris has to step in and convince him that he doesn't actually see you as a woman (rather as a basalit'an), similar to the way Sten basically learns to ignore your gender in DAO.

Huh? this never happend to me, i played through once as a female and he didn't mention my gender once and a dueled him.

I play on PS3 by the way.

Modifié par LightningSamus, 06 juillet 2011 - 11:28 .

[TEWR]

Sajuro wrote...

@Redux: I don't think its a plothole that he never verbalizes the fact that you are a woman to your face since in the years he is in Kirkwall you only interact with him for a few hours max. I don't think it would be out of his character to assume that he lumped that in with why the city sucked when talking to other Qunari or just internalized it because the first time he saw Hawke, she had managed to clear the cave of Tal-vashoth with three other people.
The reason he brought it up in the duel because he could think that it would be beneath him to fight a woman one on one since women are not meant to be warriors.

Hawke had to have met with the Arishok on more than just the occasions we saw.


Also, the company Hawke keeps isn't a good enough reason for the Arishok to ignore gender, for at least two reasons

• Female Hawke can have a party consisting of her, Aveline, Merrill, and potentially Bethany. All women. 
• Sten takes issue with a female Warden fighting despite the rest of the company. Sten ignores that he's traveling with Alistair and Dog and focuses solely on the fact that there is a woman fighting. Which he'll also do to Leliana and Morrigan.

[Wulfram]

Hawke apparently being a woman is no odder than the Viscount and Seneschal being men. Bas are just wierd like that, I guess.

Modifié par Wulfram, 06 juillet 2011 - 07:25 .

[DreamerM]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke apparently being a woman is no odder than the Viscount and Seneschal being men. Bas are just wierd like that, I guess.

Then why did Sten make a big deal about it? Was Sten just an odd-duck?

[Nerdage]

A Sten's place is basically to follow orders like most other Qunari, to them the Qun is absolute, but an Arishok seems to have more freedom to interpret and think on their own. So to DAO Sten the Qun is the way the world is, people who live differently are doing it wrong, a woman warrior makes about as much sense as a man trying to give birth, it's just not how the world works. But the Arishok seems to appreciate that the Qun is their way, but other people do it differently. That doesn't make the other people any less wrong in his eyes, he just understands theirs isn't the only way that exists.

That's my interpretation, anyway. Could just be a case of "perfect inner logic" not following through, though.

Modifié par nerdage, 06 juillet 2011 - 07:43 .

[DreamerM]

nerdage wrote...

A Sten's place is basically to follow orders like most other Qunari, to them the Qun is absolute, but an Arishok seems to have more freedom to interpret and think on their own.

What makes you say that? It looked to me like the Qun was as riged and clear for the Arishok as it was for all other Qunari, and he certainly hated the directionless lives of humanity enough to make me think that he wasn't a big fan of this whole "form your own opinions" thing.

[Nerdage]

Just my impression of him, really. He's the one who requests answers, commanding his people, that seems to suggest independent thought on his part, but all those under him just seem to do exactly as they're told. That doesn't make him any less Qunari, but he seems to lack the single-mindedness of his subordinates.

[DreamerM]

Well he is a leader. It's his role to analyze situations and decide on the right course of action for his group. Because of this I can understand that part of his job would include asking questions, gathering information and forming opinions. I thought this was a sign of his leadership, rather then his personality.

Although he's the most emotional Qunari in all of Thedas. His disgust was so unbearable that he had to attack, just because humans suck so bad. So basically he's just another religious fanatic who cannot accept that different people believe in the wrong things.

[Sajuro]

@ Redux: I don't see why it would have to be that the Arishok would have to have met with Hawke on more times then we saw in the game, Hawke's interactions with the Arishok and the reports he could get from other Qunari on what Hawke is doing.
I don't see where I brought up Hawke's companions, but like I said you aren't around him for the majority of the time he is in Kirkwall, while Sten is a constant companion if you recruit and keep him.
The Arishok could have been like "what was up with that?" after F!Hawke left after Blackpowder promise, but he would get over it and acknowledge that Hawke is a warrior (regardless of class) despite being female, and like I said he would bring it up because he feels it is below him to duel a woman even if she is a warrior.