32 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Sajuro wrote...

@ Redux: I don't see why it would have to be that the Arishok would have to have met with Hawke on more times then we saw in the game, Hawke's interactions with the Arishok and the reports he could get from other Qunari on what Hawke is doing.

Hawke's the person who has the most respect from the Arishok, but in Act 1 you only talk to him at most 2-3 times. Being frank to him does have its benefits, but meeting him 2-3 times doesn't seem like enough.

I don't see where I brought up Hawke's companions, but like I said you aren't around him for the majority of the time he is in Kirkwall, while Sten is a constant companion if you recruit and keep him.

Right here:

she had managed to clear the cave of Tal-vashoth with three other people.

The Arishok could have been like "what was up with that?" after F!Hawke left after Blackpowder promise, but he would get over it and acknowledge that Hawke is a warrior (regardless of class) despite being female, and like I said he would bring it up because he feels it is below him to duel a woman even if she is a warrior.

To me this just falls into line with the telling and not showing aspect Bioware does. We've been told before that Qunari don't allow female fighters, and Sten even showed us many times about how "it is not done."

The Arishok should've made some comments along the lines of:


Javaris: Your hated Tal-Vashoth have been felled, one and all! Right? Yes!
Arishok: By whom?
Javaris: By Hawke, of course!
Arishok: A woman defeated Tal-Vashoth? Even if the Tal-Vashoth are embroiled in weakness, they would not fall so easily to a woman. It is not done. There are no female fighters.
Varric: *snark* Oh no, you've got it all wrong Arishok! Hawke's just a very attractive man.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 juillet 2011 - 10:18 .

[Nerdage]

There's a female guard captain, plus a female knight-commander, I don't think the Arishok's so ignorant of other cultures as to assume women physically cannot fight, even if they don't under the Qun.

Modifié par nerdage, 06 juillet 2011 - 11:07 .

[DreamerM]

nerdage wrote...

There's a female guard captain, plus a female knight-commander, I don't think the Arishok's so ignorant of other cultures as to assume women physically cannot fight, even if they don't under the Qun.

Sten never said he thought women COULDN'T fight, he was just of the firmly held belief that they DON'T.

I can understand the Arishok accepting Hawke as a warrior at the end of their relationship, as Sten came to respect the F!Warden, but not the other way around. Someone earlier pointed out that it looked like the Arishok was using Hawke's gender as an excuse not to duel, but I don't think he had a problem with the idea of a duel, he's just picked this moment to notice Hawke is NOT in fact a very slender male with a high-pitched voice, but an actual member of the female species. This makes no sense to me.

[erilben]

DreamerM wrote...

nerdage wrote...

There's a female guard captain, plus a female knight-commander, I don't think the Arishok's so ignorant of other cultures as to assume women physically cannot fight, even if they don't under the Qun.

Sten never said he thought women COULDN'T fight, he was just of the firmly held belief that they DON'T.

I can understand the Arishok accepting Hawke as a warrior at the end of their relationship, as Sten came to respect the F!Warden, but not the other way around. Someone earlier pointed out that it looked like the Arishok was using Hawke's gender as an excuse not to duel, but I don't think he had a problem with the idea of a duel, he's just picked this moment to notice Hawke is NOT in fact a very slender male with a high-pitched voice, but an actual member of the female species. This makes no sense to me.

Does it even much sense that Sten flips out that when the Warden is female? He doesn't think the Warden is even a person in the first place.

The other people that the qunari doesn't considered to be people are mages. Therefore a female saarebas isn't considered to be woman, so she is used to fight just like the male saarebas. If qunari are ok with female saarebas fighting because they think mages are "things", then why would they care about non-qunari who they think are also "things" too?

[Nerdage]

DreamerM wrote...

nerdage wrote...

There's a female guard captain, plus a female knight-commander, I don't think the Arishok's so ignorant of other cultures as to assume women physically cannot fight, even if they don't under the Qun.

Sten never said he thought women COULDN'T fight, he was just of the firmly held belief that they DON'T.

And they don't... under the Qun! Hawke doesn't follow the qun, so why would the Arishok find her remarkable?

Sten's confusion seems born of ignorance of other cultures, the Arishok seems to know better. He probably thinks less of Hawke as a fighter for being female, hence why he'd be reluctant to duel, likely he felt it would be dishonourable to duel a woman, but he still knows that she is a warrior (using the word boradly). Qunari don't pretend that women don't or can't fight, it's just not their role under the Qun.

[DreamerM]

nerdage wrote...

Sten's confusion seems born of ignorance of other cultures, the Arishok seems to know better.

But Sten didn't seem interesting in forcing the Qun on anyone else, whereas the Arishok decides to forcably convert the entire city in the end. The Arishok might understand WHY F!Hawke is a warrior, but he's also of the opinion that these human maggots live so terribly and wrong that he must bring them to the light of the Qun for everybody's sake.

The Arishok never notices that the F!Hawke he respects so much would be impossible under the Qun. Or if he does notice, he doesn't care.

[Nerdage]

Whether or not he respects her ability is besides the point. Qunari society isn't about doing what you're best at, it's about everyone having a set role, and everyone fulfilling their role to achieve order. Maybe the net cost is that some people who could be effective in one role are forced into another, but the goal is order, rather than efficiency.

And let's face it, after the initial generation of converts accept their roles and the next generation is born into their roles, the system becomes very efficient. If you're raised from birth to do one thing and one thing alone you'll probably be good at it.

[Quething]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

@ Redux: I don't see why it would have to be that the Arishok would have to have met with Hawke on more times then we saw in the game, Hawke's interactions with the Arishok and the reports he could get from other Qunari on what Hawke is doing.

Hawke's the person who has the most respect from the Arishok, but in Act 1 you only talk to him at most 2-3 times. Being frank to him does have its benefits, but meeting him 2-3 times doesn't seem like enough.

I never got the impression that the Arishok's initial respect was anything other than "you killed Tal-Vashoth, that's impressive." The Qunari, or at least the karasten branch of the culture, have an incredibly primitive might-makes-right worldview; when Ketjoan tells you that just because you killed Arvaraad doesn't mean he was wrong, he's saying something that no other Qunari we've ever met seems to even begin to comprehend. You don't convince Sten to go after the Sacred Ashes by being sensible, you convince him by beating him into the ground. You don't convince Meeras to turn on the other Tal-Vashoth by appealing to his morality, you convince him by reminding him that the last man standing makes the rules. Even the Arishok's duel is a fundamentally might-makes-right situation, with the other Qunari letting a thief go unpunished in defiance of the Qun because Hawke happens to be good at kiting. Thus the fact that Hawke is first introduced to the Arishok as "someone tough enough to kill a trained kossith warrior" is all the achievement the Arishok needs to go "clearly someone who might see reason!" 

That said, yeah, it still makes no sense that he doesn't care that you're a woman. It's equally bad when Ketojan tells you "your role would not change as much as you think if you accepted the Qun" (no, Ketojan, actually it would, they'd sew my mouth shut and leash me like a pet), or the sword-collecting-guy whose nametitle escapes me tells you what role you'd have in the Qun (again, no I wouldn't, guy, I'd be a Sareebas). Just marginally easier to overlook because those are single descrete failures to account for class and gender, rather than a whole ongoing misportrayed relationship.