26 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinny2009]

I destroyed the Geths, leaving them weakened and with other Heretics still around.

However, it seems like with the Reavers coming, it might be better to reprogram the Geths so they can help kill the Reavers.

What did everyone else do?

1) Kill the Geths
or
2) Reprogram Geths?

[Raven4030]

If I were a paragon, I'd reason that rewriting the Geth is akin to brainwashing, and it would be unethical to do so. In order to treat them fairly therefore, destruction is preferable to rewrite.

If I were a renegade, I'd reason they're just machines, there is nothing wrong or unethical about brainwashing them, to attempt to treat them the same as organics would be wrong anyway as they're built differently.

Therefore, the paragon should rewrite while the renegade destroys them. Wait... I feel like I made a mistake here...

[ArcTrooper1773]

The heretics came to a different conclusion about an equation because they committed a Reaper virus to memory. An equation with the result something31 is forced equal to something32. As a result, the heretics are erroneous, not simply brainwashed. They've been forced to believe something incorrect by the reapers.

[Smeelia]

ArcTrooper1773 wrote...

The heretics came to a different conclusion about an equation because they committed a Reaper virus to memory. An equation with the result something31 is forced equal to something32. As a result, the heretics are erroneous, not simply brainwashed. They've been forced to believe something incorrect by the reapers.

I don't think the heretics were originally brainwashed by the Reapers, otherwise it seems odd that there would still be two factions and that it took so long to "develop" a virus that already existed.  I suppose it's possible that the virus wasn't refined enough the first time and needed to be improved so that it could change all the Geth rather than just a limited group but I don't think that's what happened in the story.

I've done both with different Shepards, I'd probably tend towards destroying them personally.  I agree with Raven 4030 that the Paragon/Renegade divide here seems much less clear cut than in some other cases (although I suppose you can make a case that there are at least exceptions in most decisions).

Modifié par Smeelia, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:09 .

[Augustei]

Hmm what a great coincidence since I was pondering what to do with this choice for my canon save only minutes prior to discovering this thread

[Mabari Owns High Dragon]

Freedom of choice is the for the best, even in the case of the Krogan on Tuchanka. Some of them wanted peace, I'm pretty sure that once the genophage is removed they could be reasoned with. As for the Geth, I don't think its right to reprogram them anymore then the genophage was right.

[Avalon Aurora]

I thought re-programming them was essentially a form justice. Basically, the other Geth meant no harm to them, and allowed them the right to split off and follow the Reapers, rather than following consensus like Geth are supposed to, but the Heretics betrayed their brethren, and tried to brainwash them. In return, Shepard has turned their own weapon against them, as part of the fight against the Reapers. The Geth, or at least Legion, could not decide, so the decision fell to Shepard.

Even if not all of them were converted, if enough were, they might have knowledge that can be shared which reveals secrets about the Reapers, and they will also potentially be fellow fighters in the battle against the Reapers.

If it had been a virus that someone else wrote, say, Project Overlord variant, rather than one belonging to the Heretics, that the Heretics planned to use, then I would have chosen to destroy them rather than re-writing them. However, since it was the Heretics own plan, it has to be treated as fair play to turn it against them, and I consider it more tactically sound in the war against the Reapers to convert the Heretics than to destroy them.

It's similar to the principle of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), using a nuke is horrific, and in order to discourage it's use by your enemies, you keep nukes and promise to use them in retaliation if the enemy uses them, even though you'd rather not use them at all. If you can't back up such a threat, than some nutso who has less ethics than you might blow you up, just because he isn't afraid of retaliation. Of course, some nutsos might blow you up regardless of retaliation, so you still have to be vigilant.

[Han Shot First]

Reprogram.

I wasn't concerned with any moral debate. I just figured I was going to need all the manpower (program power?) I could get. That, and you get the added bonus of denying the Reapers some of their foot soldiers, while possibly gaining intel on the Reapers' plans or tech.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 juillet 2011 - 06:29 .

[Ryzaki]

I destroy them. Nothing deserves to be brainwashed.

[TravisJBlues]

I dont do care much about Paragon and Renegade i rewrote them cause i figured legion had a valid arguement they arent people theyre not individuals and thats the problem with everyone els on his mission.
They act like theyre capable of acting and thinking like human beings when from what tali and legion both explain theyre not.
When i went to the flotilla and found out about one of the admirals need(?) for peace with the geth i thought it was a good idea not cause of the whole reaper thing but because that promotes progress in a way as a race.
If they can live with sentient beings in peace then theres no real need for war and they could possibly unite... Im somewhat sure that isnt gonna happen tho uniting would be crossing the line for Quarians from what i understand seeing as how they were actually scared when the Geth composed sentient thought.
This is just me tho feel free to correct me on anything in this.

[spartacusthegod]

Most people tend to destroy them while playing Paragon, or rewrite playing Renegade. I tend to do the opposite. Paragon Shepard is thinking of the good of all, and realizes we're gonna need all the help we can get, whereas Renegade Shepard hates just about all Geth and only wants them gone. Doesn't even ask Legion about it, just says to blow them up.

[Markinator_123]

Blow them up.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's interesting because I can see either option being too merciful or too harsh. Eventually though I think I agreed with Mordin that reprogramming them was kinder than destroying them all so agreed that the virus was the more "paragon" of the two, even if both are sort of renegade-y.

If you were to try to apply a direct comparison to us in that situation, it wouldn't be just deciding whether you'd prefer to die for your belief or not, it would be deciding if you and everyone else should die for them. Many people may willingly die for what they believe in, but IMO every single member of your race also dying for it is a little different of a choice.

[capn233]

Rewrite.

The heretics weren't under the influence of a virus, that we know of. For whatever reason, those processes decided they would follow the Old Machine so that they could be given advanced technology. At any rate, you wouldn't be able to say that you were curing the Heretics. You are forcing another conclusion on them via the Pentium floating point error though.

The whole thing brings up the question as to why those processes could not reach a consensus with the main Geth in the first place.

[swenson]

Yeah, as a paragon, I couldn't justify rewriting them. Legion paints it in very religious terms, so looking at it from that stance... whether you're a theist or an atheist or an agnostic, what if someone just came along one day and rewrote your brain so that you would never remember your former beliefs, would never understand why you would think that in the first place, all because they thought "well, you had things worked out wrong on a basic level, and that led to your wrong belief." You'd go, "hang on a second, how do you know that you're right and I'm wrong? How do you know that I have things worked out wrong, maybe I'm the one who's right and you're the one who's wrong!"

I wouldn't be for people brainwashing others to believe certain things, regardless of whether or not they're true (so I don't think atheists should go around brainwashing Christians or Christians go around brainwashing Muslims or Hindus go around brainwashing Jews or whatever). If Legion's geth had asked me (or, rather, Shepard) for time to talk it over with the heretics, I'd be inclined to say "sure, go ahead, try convincing them logically, that's a much more moral idea." But obviously we don't have that kind of time, not if the heretics are working with/for the Reapers.

However, and this is a very big "however", if post-rewriting the heretics would be free to examine their old beliefs and still be capable of viewing it as a possible alternate point of view, then rewriting would be less brainwashing and more a release from brainwashing. It all depends on what gives them a broader view of things, rewriting or not rewriting.

[capn233]

Oddly, the way he presents makes it sound like what will happen is the Heretics will now have the same conclusions as the Orthodox Geth, and they will retain their memories of following the Old Machines... which was where the dialogue about them becoming traumatized after post integration. Going with your example, it might be odd if one day you woke up and had a huge change in belief about whatever, remembered all the actions you took under that belief, and yet could not find any current way to justify your former actions or belief... but then again Legion would probably point out that is just the difference between organics and the Geth, which are "purely" programs and or mathematics.  As for whether they would ever be able to go back to their original view, who knows.  Legion seems to think the runtime error will prevent that from happening.  Changing a floating pt operation like that could mess with the results of other functions and logic though, but he does not speculate at all about side effects.

Modifié par capn233, 09 septembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[spartacusthegod]

He doesn't speculate about side effects because the two of their operating systems and the way their logic (the Geth and the Heretics) works is similar, except for the logic that makes them want to follow the Old Machines. That is the only thing the virus is changing, is that one difference. All it really is doing is turning the Heretics into part of the Geth again, instead of their race being split.

None of this matters if you sold Legion though. The current playthrough I'm doing is the one and only playthrough that it's happening, and I'm quite curious to see what happens in ME3 if you never did Legion's loyalty quest.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Renegade character blew them up, Paragon character will reprogram (replaying completely as I recently got rid of my 360 copies and got the PC versions when DA2 did that free copy of ME2 promotion).

Now, me personally... The way Legion explains it, the Heretics are flawed.  The came to the wrong mathematical conclusion.  They are therefore SICK.  They need to be cured of their sickness.   I dont really see it as brainwashing, I see it as correcting their erroneous conclusion the only way you can do so with a computer, which sentient or not, they are computers.

With an organic species, you would present the evidence, and they would ignore it as everyone but Shepard, Cerberus, and Anderson prove.  But, the proiblem with the computer is that evidence might be beleived, except for the math problem Legion explains.  So, they will disbeleive it for sure.  All the virus is doing is "Fixing" the math error, therefore letting them come to their own conclusions, which will be that Reapers aren't gods, they are just advanced machines.

In fact, in order to get some insight into the Quarian-Geth relationship, on my Paragon playthrough I'm going to risk my crew and do Tali's loyalty mission last, so I can take Legion along.  I'll keep a save before I get the Reaper IFF so if my crew dies I have a chance to save them by not taking Legion, but I am hoping I can still pull off a save.

spartacusthegod wrote...

None of this matters if
you sold Legion though. The current playthrough I'm doing is the one
and only playthrough that it's happening, and I'm quite curious to see
what happens in ME3 if you never did Legion's loyalty quest.

I might do that on a playthough eventually, but I just love Legion and I can't bear to sell him.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 09 septembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[sorentoft]

I did both. And none of the options are really the right one. Though blowing them up might actually be more ethical. I mean, it is somewhat justified by the active war.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

sorentoft wrote...

I did both. And none of the options are really the right one. Though blowing them up might actually be more ethical. I mean, it is somewhat justified by the active war.

Actually, take Legion with you on Tali's loyalty mission. I did all others except Tali's, then got legion then immediatley did hers after activating him but before accepting his loyalty, so I was able to do both loyalties before the Joker mission.

You actually can have the Admirals talk to Legion and he actually admits that there could be peace, if the Creators are willing to forgive, they can too.  But, both sides must agree and not be just looking for a chance to betray the other.

THEN, the email about the evidence was VERY different... both renegade and paragon I found that the Quarians were going to war, no matter what I said to them, but when I took Legion, that turned the tide... The email was about Xen wanting to experiment on them more, but made NO mention of war.

Quite interesting.  The way I see it, the Quarian's mistake was trying to "kill" the Geth when they became self-aware.  IF they had seen them as sentients, treated them as such, they could have coexisted.  But, their "unplug them quick" thing.... It's just like the Terminator movies... The AI relaizes you are going to unplug it, that is death, it defends itself.

[sorentoft]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

I did both. And none of the options are really the right one. Though blowing them up might actually be more ethical. I mean, it is somewhat justified by the active war.

Actually, take Legion with you on Tali's loyalty mission. I did all others except Tali's, then got legion then immediatley did hers after activating him but before accepting his loyalty, so I was able to do both loyalties before the Joker mission.

You actually can have the Admirals talk to Legion and he actually admits that there could be peace, if the Creators are willing to forgive, they can too.  But, both sides must agree and not be just looking for a chance to betray the other.

THEN, the email about the evidence was VERY different... both renegade and paragon I found that the Quarians were going to war, no matter what I said to them, but when I took Legion, that turned the tide... The email was about Xen wanting to experiment on them more, but made NO mention of war.

Quite interesting.  The way I see it, the Quarian's mistake was trying to "kill" the Geth when they became self-aware.  IF they had seen them as sentients, treated them as such, they could have coexisted.  But, their "unplug them quick" thing.... It's just like the Terminator movies... The AI relaizes you are going to unplug it, that is death, it defends itself.

Interesting, but how is it relevant to my post? 

[CaribbeanCLANK]

Just got the game so I am still far from this point. Loving the game so far.

Anyways....I think the Geth will make good allies so if I do get to choose their fate I am gonna re-program them instead of destroy them.

[Labrev]

swenson wrote...

Yeah, as a paragon, I couldn't justify rewriting them. Legion paints it in very religious terms, so looking at it from that stance... whether you're a theist or an atheist or an agnostic, what if someone just came along one day and rewrote your brain so that you would never remember your former beliefs, would never understand why you would think that in the first place, all because they thought "well, you had things worked out wrong on a basic level, and that led to your wrong belief." You'd go, "hang on a second, how do you know that you're right and I'm wrong? How do you know that I have things worked out wrong, maybe I'm the one who's right and you're the one who's wrong!"

Legion actually gave more reason to rewrite, saying that a bad opinion is worth keeping, even if incorrect (because you can learn from it). Blow up the heretics, and its gone. Rewrite them, you can keep their old "opinion."


As for me, I rewrote them but I regret it now because it's taking a risk on what they'll become after the virus. But I'm too lazy to go back and replay it all now just to change that one thing, so I'm gonna roll with it.

[Unionhack]

Must... resist... grammar **** urges...

I myself reprogrammed them. I looked at it like this; if I kill them, they're gone and I've lost a potential ally against the reapers. If I reprogrammed them, I've either gained a good ally against the reapers, or I've made a new enemy. The thing about them being potential enemies, however, is that they're hardly a threat compared to giant sentient space cuttlefish.